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FORUM / RUGBY /  Has Carr the clout to be a Bok

Has Carr the clout to be a Bok

Started by Beeno123 REPLIES207 VIEWS· 09 Oct 2014, 13:42
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Oct 2014, 13:42
#1
09 Oct 2014, 13:42#1

The guy is 23 and weighs in at 103 kg. With victor at lock one cannot weaken the pack anymore. In any event although talented I dont think he has the clout. I also dont think he is better than Warren Whitely, 27 years old, 106 kg and Lions captain who is more skilfull etc.

Carr is the same weight as Brussouw but not as tough. He is a linking type of loosie in the bent Read mould but not nearly as good. Whitely is much closer. Whitely did well in his first test.


We could have one loosie of this sort if the tight five was properly configured. Also on the high veldt speed is needed in the loose trio but not against England at Twicks.


Cape Town - Western Province loose forward Nizaam Carr has his sights firmly set on making the Springbok team.

The 23-year-old was on Tuesday night rewarded for a stellar season when he received the MVP and the Players' Player of the Year awards at the annual WP Rugby awards ceremony.

He was last month also invited to train with the Springboks in the build-up to their Rugby Championship Test against Australia at Newlands.

That experience made Carr even more determined to force his way into the Springbok fold.

"I got a nice taste if what it's like and I've got a huge hunger to experience more," he told Die Burger. "It was unbelievable to practice with the Springboks. Coach Heyneke (Meyer) told me positive things and that's a good sign."

What could count in Carr's favour is that he is equally adept at either No 8 or openside flank.

But for now, Carr and his WP team-mates have their sights firmly set on Currie Cup glory. 

They tackle the Sharks at Newlands this weekend but because they have already secured top spot on the overall log, coach Allister Coetzee will rest a few key players, with Carr likely to get a well-deserved rest.


Guppies should win on Saturday if they don' t they are in trouble.


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Oct 2014, 13:57
#2
09 Oct 2014, 13:57#2
He is a quality player, I really rate him......but think he is best suited to 6  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Oct 2014, 14:02
#3
09 Oct 2014, 14:02#3
 6 is a very tough position snapster - you need to be as hard as steel - hence mcaaaw at 7.
I see him more as a roving poor mans Read number 8. You see him as a Hooper type 6 no doubt.
Marcell Coetzee 109kg and verociously competive and with a huge heart had his work cut out to make a real physicial impact. Unsung hero is Marcell.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2014, 14:09
#4
09 Oct 2014, 14:09#4
 Beeno
You are wrong The NZ and Aussies number their openside flanks as 7 - we number them at 6.   
I think Carr is a bit on the small side for international rugby - 6'1" and 103 kgs.    Most of the top loosies in SA nowadays are somewhere aroud 6'4" and weighs in at 108 - 112 kgs.    He will hve to get past Louw and Coetzee to get into the Springboks side as a number 6.      
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Oct 2014, 14:10
#5
09 Oct 2014, 14:10#5

Carr has a quick rugby brain, he sees the opportunities. He is a brilliant S15 player....to me more like Keegan Daniel than Brussouw. And that points to the difficulty at test level. He is ceratinly among our top 10 loosies. I'm not sure he will ever be among our top  four.

 

As for Marcell he is very much a "sung" hero. He gets heaps of accolades when he goes well. But I don't think our ground game was nearly as good after Louw left. Marcell should be a 6, but he plays like a 7....and as a ball carrier he is pretty ordinary. To me he remains a good player stuck between two stools.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Oct 2014, 14:23
#6
09 Oct 2014, 14:23#6
 Yes Carr is like Keegan but a bigger version and in my view a better all round player. My point re brussouw was as tough a wee fellow that he was at 103 kg he didnt quite cut it. Carr would have to have a role crafted for him as a roving loose forard. He would not shape up in tighter role.
I am wondering how a Louw, Whitely, Vermulen(7) loose trio would shape with a powerful tight 5.
Louw, Vermuelen and Burger constitute a very good trio. Best in the world right now. Add:Etzebeth, Steph Du Toit,Beast, Biz and MalherbeThat could be our world Cup pack. Strong and very mobile. Whitley for extra pace.
Meyer has it all and we really should win this coming RWC barring injuries and bent refs.




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2014, 14:45
#7
09 Oct 2014, 14:45#7
 bereno
I would not take anything Mozart says about Coetzee as serious.  Coetzee is oneof the players he constantly maligned in the past.  
I think the no 7 position si wide open for next year.  Whiteley si very good - but so is Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne, Jacques du Plessis, Michael Rhodes, Elstadt and even Oosthuizen of the Sharks.   The player not on that list is Alberts -his work rate is way too low.   
I would say that the  pack should look like the following:   
8   Vermeulen - backup Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne7   Arno Botha - backup Lappies l:abuschagne, Jacques du Plessis,  6   Francois Louw  -  backup Marcel Coetzee,  Jaco Kriel, Marius Schoeman5   Pieter- Steph du Toit - backup  De Jager,  Elstadt4   Etzebth - Backup  Wikllemse, Ruan Botha3   Frans Malherbe - Backup  Marcel van der Merwe,  Redelinghus2   Du Plessis - back-up  Strauss,  Marx,  Van der Merwe1   Beast -  back-up Thomas du Toit, Nyakane, Koch
The Super 15 next year will tell us a lot about the above players and Meyer has a wide variety to choose from.
      
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Oct 2014, 15:56
#8
09 Oct 2014, 15:56#8

Coetzee is far better than Louw, it is not even close.

 

Carr is good enough to play for the Boks, but as a 6, he is not big enough for 7 or 8  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Oct 2014, 20:49
#9
09 Oct 2014, 20:49#9
Backup Lappies Labuscagne....his back up Lappies Labuschagne .Lappies and Lomp....give me a break.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2014, 20:52
#10
09 Oct 2014, 20:52#10
 Balla Mozart - your evaluation oif players are BS slanted by prejudice.  Give me a break. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Oct 2014, 21:06
#11
09 Oct 2014, 21:06#11
I suppose it was prejudice that missed the Bargie scrumhalf for a try.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2014, 21:56
#12
09 Oct 2014, 21:56#12
Just a question - how many times have you maligned players  and they slap you in your face with ecellent match-winning performances.  Think a bit - I will mention 3 - Marcel Coetzee, Lambie and Reinach.
And how many times have you supported a player and slanted his performances and they turned out to produce nothing and even cost us matches - Morne Steyn, Willem Alberts, Bakkies Notha, as per example.
The day you stop pretending you know about player evaluation is the day you will have gained a modicum of rugby knwledge - at this stage your opinions are based on ignorance and prejudice.   
  
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
09 Oct 2014, 22:04
#13
09 Oct 2014, 22:04#13
 He is a good player but he has really strong competitors  for a Springbok spot.
But I also enjoy his grit and style of play.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Oct 2014, 22:54
#14
09 Oct 2014, 22:54#14
 No it was Lood AND Bismark who missed the Argie 9 -FACT
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Oct 2014, 23:05
#15
09 Oct 2014, 23:05#15
 AJ
There is a vey real difference here -
*   De Jager is young and will develop fiurther as a player;*   Botha abd Matfield are from a player perspective old and will deteriorate further.
Until Mozart start thinking of that possibility he would not see the deficiencies Botha and Matfield showed already.   Everything these two does is praised to high heaven - every mistake they made is ignored.   For instance Botha was on the field of play for 20 minutes and here is his stats for that 20 minutes:-
Botha0/000/0/2100004/00/000/0
If that is not the bare minimum heaven only knows what is.   In all the tests he played for the Springboks since November 2013 - he made 12 tackles and took 7 line outs -  and hsi ball carries was as effective as they were in the  Latest Ellis Park test.  
Matfield took 5 line outs in the Ellis Park test and missed two.  He is clever, when he ahs a strong line out jumper he does not call line out balls to come to him - so he called less than half the line outs (7) to come to him because of Whitelock and Whitelock took two balls awa y from him.   Mozart's jjustification was that Strauss through the ball short and Matfield went too high to catch it.   There is only one word to describe that one - BALLS.   
That is why insofar as player evaluation is concerned the best way is to ignore Mozart\s prattle and see fro youself what happens.    
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
09 Oct 2014, 23:41
#16
09 Oct 2014, 23:41#16
 I was referring to Carr CM.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
10 Oct 2014, 00:17
#17
10 Oct 2014, 00:17#17
Matfield made a try saving tackle on Fekitoa. He was involved in three tackles in last AB attack, including the tackle on the last turnover along with Schalk . His kickoff take at the start of the half was superb. He forced very short clearances twice by Smith because of the threat of charge down. He was all over the park doing intelligent stuff....obviously totally missed by you OOm. But not by the Rugby press who put him in the TOT.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Oct 2014, 00:26
#18
10 Oct 2014, 00:26#18
 Matfield was bloody useless and as Andrews says, a physical liability. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Oct 2014, 04:29
#19
10 Oct 2014, 04:29#19
 Mozart
What doid Matfield o that another lock could or would not be able to do?   That remains the problem - he did make tackles (I never denied it) but what was tre quality of the tackles?   Mark Andrews noted it - I saidi it repeatedly - the tackles were bog ordinary and not strong.   Taking a ball being kicked in - that is done effectiveluy by most other players - mostly not locks bcause the ball is rarely kicked to where locks are operating.  How many balls were kicked in on Saturday?   H ow many was handled by Matfield?   Exactly one of all the kick ins made. 
The question here is what do we have here?  A player -
*   who is at best solid in line outs, but has also been found wanting occassionally;*   who makes tackles of a quality seen as average to below par;*   ho has a fairly high missed ackle ratio; and*   who brings no physicality to the Tight  5
In essense Mark Andrews and others have analysedthe situation and came to exactly the same conclusion.   There are positives and negatives in this case - but the negatives are over-shadowingthe positives.   We are sacrifising too much in forward physicality in his case and other players must putin much more to off-set that deficiency.   
The only real reason why you swear by Matfield is his reputation - not really whjat he brings to the party.   You must be blind not to see the deficiencies in his performances and to realize that th negatives outweighs the positives.       
 
     
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
10 Oct 2014, 05:10
#20
10 Oct 2014, 05:10#20
 Actually the best trio in the world right now is Read, Mccaw, Kaino Beeno, cant deny the stats . You git a good trio too. I just think the Abs boys are a bit more consistent, particularly in selection. Other then vermulen. I don't think SA has settled their openside or blindside. For us Open Side is 7, and Blinde Side is 6. Who well play 7? Burger? Mohjoe? Carr? Louwe?. What about 6? Coetzee? Mntembu? Kolsi? See I think a few players need to proove themselfs. Where as I think with NZ, you can confidently say its. 6. Kaino 7. Richie 8. Read. And maybe Messam at 6, or Vito and Luatua pushing. Best SA team or NZ potentially. 
NZ:
1. Wyatt Crockett 2. Dane Coles 3. Owen Franks 4. Brodie Retilluck 5. Sam Whitelock 6. Jerome Kaino 7. Richie Mccaw 8. Keiran Read 9. Aaron Smith 10. Dan Carter 11. Julian Savea 12. Malakai Fekitoa 13. Conrad Smith 14. Ben Smith 15. Israel Dagg
16. Keven Mealamu 17. Charles Faumuaina 18. Joe Moody 19. Jeremy Thrush 20. Liam Messam 21. TJ Peranara 22. Aaron Cruden 23. Beaudan Barratt
SA:
1. Tendai Meitawarria 2. Adrian Strauss 3. Marcel Van Der Merwe 4. Eben Estebeth 5. Peiter Steph-Du Toit 6. Marcell Coetzee 7. Francois Louwe 8. Duane Vermulen 9. Francois Houggard 10. Handre Pollard 11. Bryan Habana 12. Jan Serfointain 13. Damian De Allende 14. Cornal Hendricks 15. Willie Le Roux
16. Bismark Du Pleesi 17. Frans Malhebe 18. Coenie Ousteihazen 19. Lood De Jager 20. Warren Whitely 21. Cobus Reinach 22. Patrick Lambie 23. Senalta
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
10 Oct 2014, 12:31
#21
10 Oct 2014, 12:31#21

3Ku1 your Bok side is almost right but for Louw at 7. PSDT would be better employed there, with Willemse at lock.

 

Habana has to go as does Hendricks given his defence. The wings should be JP and Senatla, with v/Wyk pushing  

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
10 Oct 2014, 14:51
#22
10 Oct 2014, 14:51#22
 
Yes John ... I agree. Carr is a quality player but unseating any of the current Bok loose trio isn't going to happen.

I don't like Marcell Coetzee. Nothing special about him at all. Just an average loosie. He's there merely to make up the numbers till the real men come back. Even he'll repel Carr's attempt at unseating him.

Carr certainly has improved this year with the game time given him. Maybe another season will see him improve even further.

Wouldn't write him off yet.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
10 Oct 2014, 16:15
#23
10 Oct 2014, 16:15#23
I think he would be awesome Bok forward for the sevens team.
Carr and Whiteley both should be in that squad for the Olympics
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
10 Oct 2014, 16:44
#24
10 Oct 2014, 16:44#24
  Cloudy
What made you change your avatar - I like the guns and you shooting down the flip comments of other members.  
— END OF THREAD —

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