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FORUM / RUGBY /  Have age differences predicted our S15 success

Have age differences predicted our S15 success

Started by Mozart23 REPLIES479 VIEWS· 26 Apr 2014, 10:15
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Apr 2014, 10:15
#1
26 Apr 2014, 10:15#1

After the Sharks loss today there were the usual calls for new blood, sweeping away the older player. But is there any evidence to support this?

 

Firstly here are the average ages of our S15 teams in their last completed matches:

 

Cheetahs 26 years / 140 days

 

Bulls 26 years / 84 days

 

Sharks 26 years/ 11 days

 

Stormers 25 years/ 292 days

 

Lions 24 years / 340 days.

 

The first thing that strikes one is the three franchizes regarded as having somewhat succesful S 15s are the oldest three.

 

Secondly all teams cluster around 26 years, with the one exception being the Lions at 25 years....and they are probably our weakest team. Is there anything in their play to suggest the year of additional youth is making them more formidable?

 

Thirdly the Stormers and Cheetahs both have old backlines. The vaunted Cheetahs backline actually averages 27 years and 331 days.....28 years to all intents and purposes. If Goosen were back that might drop a bit, but would still be above 27. So how come our most dynamic backline is our oldest? Could experience and vision be more important than young legs....up to a point.

 

And fourthly the Stormers have a young pack averaging 24 years and 149 days..probably the youngest of any of the packs or backlines. Could this be the core of their problem.

 

So from this admittedly simplistic view, one might say an old backline doesn't seem to hurt you, but a young pack does. One might also say our older teams tend to do better than the Lions,  who are sufficiently younger to speculate about performance effects.

 

Not conclusive proof by any means, but enough to make this the going in hypothesis.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
26 Apr 2014, 11:14
#2
26 Apr 2014, 11:14#2

Bring in the stats from other countries and compare before drawing any conclusion...can you do an analysis on the NZ and Australian franchises?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Apr 2014, 11:35
#3
26 Apr 2014, 11:35#3
Mozart
It is not the age factor only hat counts here.  It is the fact that a number of senior players - who made up the core of the backlines in most cases are not performing at all - but so does some of the juniors.   It is also not necessarily physical - it is also psychological - ie the ability to read games and play accordingly - plus a shockingly poor level of ball skills.   If players have in the above respect at this stage of their careers not have attained the ability to perform satisfactorily - they never will.  A serious speed deficiency is also in evidence in some cases.   
Lets look at the teams in question:-

Sharks
Pietersen = very slow for a wing and not interested in looking for workSteyn =  seriously speed-deficient, poor reading to games, deficient ball skills, no penetration, questionable defense.  Could play at full back - but speed likely to be too slow.
Bulls
Basson = Deficient in ball skills and defenseEngelbrecht =  Poor reading of the game - no penetration - deficient tackling techniqueHougaard = Deficient technique - questionable in most phases of play.
Stormers
Taute = Has lost the plotDe Jongh = despite flashes of good play - poor reader of the game -deficient passing skills - que stionable defenseGrant = Has lost the plot
Cheetahs
Danellier =  Seriously speed deficient.
Speed deficiency contributes to poor defense and inability to carry balls effectively.   It also leads to players being "left behind" when others carry the ball and not running supporting lines.
The main problem relates to deficient ball sense and skills as well.
   
  
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 Apr 2014, 11:52
#4
26 Apr 2014, 11:52#4
Really Moz? lol
Actually according to the scientific journal of non replicable results, it is the length of the big toe that is the predictor of a successful season in SA rugby. I give you the following "evidence":
Team Length         of big toe*
Cheetahs 3/4 inches Bulls 1 inches Sharks 1.7 5 inches Stormers 1/2 inches
*Average

 

& the fair-minded kiwi said: "Pull the other one mate"

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
26 Apr 2014, 12:08
#5
26 Apr 2014, 12:08#5
HAHA Dr Win...pulling our legs again. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 Apr 2014, 12:13
#6
26 Apr 2014, 12:13#6
 Seb: nothing like a good laugh mate!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Apr 2014, 17:33
#7
26 Apr 2014, 17:33#7
Or pulling our toes? But whose to say the whole string isn't a send up.....hahahahaha. Well my prediction is, it will get better with age. There are plenty of things that improve with age.....a good bottle of wine for example.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
26 Apr 2014, 18:51
#8
26 Apr 2014, 18:51#8
 Jesus Christ I have not read such tripe in my life. It actually disgusts me how you try and prove your agenda through these sorts of threads you put up. 
Willie Le Roux = 25
Cornal Hendricks = 26Johan Sadie = 25Francois Venter = 23Raymond Rhule = 21Johan Goosen = 22Sarel Pretorius = 30 Average age = 24 1/2 years
But still all this is crap, it depends on how the management of each team uses the backline. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2014, 00:48
#9
27 Apr 2014, 00:48#9

Numbskull what part of ...

 

"Firstly here are the average ages of our S15 teams in their last completed matches" 

 

....leapt over your teensy brain. I wasn't going to average the results for all the games, too much work, so I chose the last team.....here you go:

 

Daniller 30 yrs 21 days

 

Hendricks 26 yrs 8 days

 

Sadie 25 years 93 days

 

Benjamin 30 yrs  266 days

 

Le Roux  24 years  251 days

 

Watts 28 years 214 days

 

Pretorius 30 years 8 days.

 

 

Average that poephol and don't forget to count the days....you can't round down. I'm sick of your belliger ent ignorance.

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Apr 2014, 01:27
#10
27 Apr 2014, 01:27#10
You also started to mention how the Cheetahs backline is the best because it's the oldest, the regular backline (The one I stated) is the regular backline for the first team and the one which coincided with the Cheetahs best performances. What a pompous prick. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2014, 01:43
#11
27 Apr 2014, 01:43#11

What a liar....here is the team that drew with the Chiefs....average age 35 days under 27. A backline much older than any team I calculated. Compute today's team and you get an almost identical result. The only other "good" result was against the unsettled early Bools. So no, if anything, they had an older backline when they got results. Try thinking before you get on your high horse in future and try to be honest and not go on bull dusting when you are found out....prick.

 

 

FBle Roux0/1011/14/14571121 3/30/010/0WHendricks0/000/4/6150112 5/10/000/0CSadie0/000/4/5322010 6/10/010/0CBenjamin1/050/8/5441110 8/10/000/0WDaniller0/000/1/7200300 7/10/020/0FHGoosen0/02311/19/4210100 10/50/000/0SHPretorius2/0102/30/16
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Apr 2014, 01:49
#12
27 Apr 2014, 01:49#12
 The team from the first few games are obviously the first choice for their positions. 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2014, 02:27
#13
27 Apr 2014, 02:27#13
We are measuring actual performnce vs age, so what the Cheetahs think is their best team is not relevant. But sure Wheezer, if that saves face, by all means.  Just remember next time, there is no need to have a hissy fit at another poster without any provocation.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Apr 2014, 02:36
#14
27 Apr 2014, 02:36#14
 And you said the Cheetahs had the best backline, the best backline being the players I mentioned.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2014, 02:40
#15
27 Apr 2014, 02:40#15
Okay let's move on....what do you think of Hendricks as a replacement for JP?  
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
27 Apr 2014, 04:59
#16
27 Apr 2014, 04:59#16
Starting for the Boks? Never. JP always turns up for the Boks, Hendricks lacks experience in union and has been exposed defensively a few times. By the time June comes along JP would've gotten over the 'Japan effect'. I wouldn't mind if he was in the squad.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2014, 08:41
#17
27 Apr 2014, 08:41#17
Not sure JP always turns up....he has played a lot of ordinary tests. And I'm  not sure he has winger pace anymore. Lack of pace out wide is a problem, and it's not a playing in Japan problem. Hendricks  is knocking on the door, and nobody can doubt his pace.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
27 Apr 2014, 10:16
#18
27 Apr 2014, 10:16#18
 Hendriciks  really showed he had pace and power. Does he have the other skills needed for an outside back?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 May 2014, 02:10
#19
06 May 2014, 02:10#19
Cheezer....just another example of having your head handed to you.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 May 2014, 02:28
#20
06 May 2014, 02:28#20
I think you will find that if these sides had more of their younger players available, things would be a whole lot better - look no further than the Stormers and the loss of young Etzebeth at lock......they have been lost without him.

No doubt their campaign would have benefited from de Allende at 12 instead of old man Jean. Had Pat Howard been available, he could have played ahead of de Jongh who cant tackle.

They have been without Malherbe at the start and that showed.

For the Bulls, Arno Botha and Stegman have been huge losses.....the Bulls lack balance in the loosies. Had Botha been available, they could have played Jacques du Plessis at 5 and dispensed with this idiotic idea of 36 year old Matfield at lock. 

The Bulls should also have invested in younger props Mellett and Marcel v/d Merwe to start. v/d Merwe showed how much better he is than Kruger this week. They should also have shown more faith in young Pollard.....the best of their 10's

The Sharks have lost PSDT which has been huge......the side is so much weaker with Alberts at lock...........the Sharks have been the best of the SA sides, but I suspect that they would have been even better had Jake shown more faith in 19 year old Andre Esterhuizen.......I suspect he would have provided far more clout than Frans.

The loss of Lambie has also been huge.

The Cheetahs have felt the loss of young palyers like Goosen, Coenie, Frans Venter, Lood, Labascagne, Rhule and v/d Walt.


SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
06 May 2014, 05:36
#21
06 May 2014, 05:36#21
All I see is you changing topic and asking me my opinion on Hendricks because you got the Cheetahs backline wrong.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
06 May 2014, 05:37
#22
06 May 2014, 05:37#22
 Plus this thread is a crap theory created by you to try and prove that older players are better.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 May 2014, 05:52
#23
06 May 2014, 05:52#23
No what you see is an attempt not to be petty and crowing about your screw up. As I pointed out I measured all the teams in their last games, a game where the Cheetahs had one of there few good results. You shot your mouth off and instead of being confident enough to admit your error....you made up a theory about their first team being their best. A theory which doesn't square with results and had nothing to do with the match  I was measuring. 
You have this habit of jumping on your high horse and then falling off like fool. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
06 May 2014, 09:23
#24
06 May 2014, 09:23#24
Moz: still trying to peddle your "ol' foggies make the best players" theory of rugby, lol You might want to get some of those ol' wind bags that are in the SA commentary booth to play again. I would love to see them get their cumpupence, lol
No, I still hold by my theory that it is toe size that determines the winning team. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Perhaps Clevermike has some additional stats he could help you out with?
— END OF THREAD —

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