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FORUM / RUGBY /  Heyneke tries to advise Rassie. Laughable!

Heyneke tries to advise Rassie. Laughable!

Started by Chippo30 REPLIES857 VIEWS· 16 Oct 2018, 15:05
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CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
16 Oct 2018, 15:05
#1
16 Oct 2018, 15:05#1
The Springboks’ shift back toward “traditional strengths” under Rassie Erasmus should stand them in good stead for their four-match November tour of the northern hemisphere.

That is the view of Heyneke Meyer, the former Bok coach whose four-year tenure culminated in them finishing as bronze medallists – a decent state of affairs considering the bumpier general fortunes in some of the years subsequently – at the 2015 World Cup.

Speaking to Sport24 this week from his Parisian base, where he is currently sports director of Stade Francais, Meyer said current Bok supremo Erasmus had put in place plenty of the key tools required to excel in European-staged Test matches, including an uncompromising pack and smarter all-round kicking game.

Already showing promising signs of turning around the French Top 14 club’s fortunes – they lie second after seven rounds, following a lowly 12th-placed finish last season – Meyer was something of an expert at engineering rosy results for the Boks in Europe.

During his tenure, they triumphed in 13 of 17 Tests played on that continent (win record 76.47 percent), including respective clean sweeps on the end-of-year tours of 2012 and 2013.

The Boks won two of four Tests on the 2014 mission – when Jean de Villiers experienced his horrendous leg injury in the tight, closing-match loss to Wales – as well as five of seven matches at the World Cup a year later, held in the UK.

Meyer said he did not wish to prescribe to the current Springboks how they should go about their business this time around (they play England, France, Scotland and Wales in that order), but offered some enlightening recollections of his and his staff’s methods when he was in charge.

“The first thing we did was to specifically stop calling it the ‘end of year tour’ … it gave too much of an impression of an ordeal; that we would be taking abroad a lot of players stuffed after a long home season.

“I wanted it to be ‘northern hemisphere tour’ instead, and to emphasise the excitement factor. We wanted the players to embrace spending time in the culture and history up north – remembering that in Super Rugby and the Rugby Championship you see a lot of the same places.”

Under Meyer’s watch, the Bok management also made every effort to downplay the likely cold conditions in Europe: canoeing legend and motivational speaker Martin Dreyer was even drafted in, reminding the squad that you don’t get harsh conditions, only “soft people”.

Meyer said he was also reluctant to select for European treks players who were too clearly close to burnout, and either on the brink of injury or already carrying too many niggles.

“We also cut back on the training regimes, considering the time of season, and were wary of spending too much time on buses in busy cities … three hours on a bus daily while going to gyms, training fields and back to hotels wasn’t very productive time for the guys, so we would try to combine our trips out wherever possible as there can be some big distances or traffic involved.

“Then you must get used to the likelihood of a wetter ball in the Test matches: sometimes for the hookers we would dip it in soapy water at lineout drills, to get them more used to the (hazards), and also have towels constantly nearby for drying purposes – they may seem silly little details but they are important.

“You have to persuade the backs to check their studs properly, for the relevant conditions. Backs are often more reluctant to use longer studs, but in the rain or mud you may need them in most of the positions.”

Meyer feels Erasmus can prosper on the tour: “He is going back to what makes South Africa most competitive: good physicality, playing to our strengths … tries coming from counter-attacks, turnovers, broken field.

“It is still so much more of a tactical game in the northern hemisphere; not so ball-in-hand, as the conditions usually just don’t suit it. You have to be prepared for arm-wrestles, grinding wins out. You will get punished if you think you can toss it around like in Super Rugby.

“The Boks will run into different defensive systems – this is not Super Rugby; these guys chop-tackle and you have to be ready for that.

“Scotland will wish to move the ball around if possible, but against France and England, for example, you must anticipate more rolling mauls and the like. You must select a big pack … set-piece is vital, especially a solid scrum, and you need men who can halt rolling mauls.

“But I think we are ticking boxes there.

“We have the right game-plan to do well, including the ability of all of our nine, ten and fifteen to be able to kick well, in an all-round sense, plus the back three must be safe under the high ball. And we are still scoring tries, don’t forget.”

Meyer also warns about getting too obsessed with analysis of the tour itinerary, including order of opponents and any thoughts of “targeting” certain matches.

“You mustn’t sweat too much over the roster; the mix isn’t too bad. Maybe playing England first at Twickenham is a good thing: they haven’t been together for a while and we are sharper, fresher from the Championship.

“Quite a few guys have been rested from the last few weeks of Currie Cup, and I think our conditioning, fitness is looking decent … we should be able to put some teams away as matches drag toward the finish.”
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Oct 2018, 15:08
#2
16 Oct 2018, 15:08#2
Why laughable, his win rate is considerably higher than 50/50 which is where Rassie resides.
CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
16 Oct 2018, 15:12
#3
16 Oct 2018, 15:12#3

Rassie has only played sides ranked higher than the boks.

We are also playing a much better brand of rugby.

Same players - but better game.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
16 Oct 2018, 15:40
#4
16 Oct 2018, 15:40#4

There are elements of the game that are very good, some that aren't. The attacking game ranges from clunky to sharp. Rassie has tried quite a few things out, but clearly backline play is not his forte. I'd say assessing backs has been a mixed bag too.

Fortunately, he has come in at a time when the next gen are cutting their teeth. The game we have been playing is largely transferable to the NH. However, certain personnel choices aren't. We barely got away with Kolisi, Notshe, Damian, Kolbe et al in the RC, it'll be much tougher up north. Their defences are better, faster and their contest possession much harder. 

It'll be interesting to see what Rassie does. He has a great opportunity to succeed. A strong tour will bode well and send the right message for next season. 

CH
ChippoPro3,372 posts
16 Oct 2018, 15:53
#5
16 Oct 2018, 15:53#5

Look, at the end of the day, i agree, rassie needs to be accounatable overall.

Its just  hard to blame him when we have Mzwandile Wanky (I kid you not) Stick as our backline coach, who has very little forte when it comes to coaching any team of note whatsoever.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Oct 2018, 16:19
#6
16 Oct 2018, 16:19#6
Rassie has played 6 out of 9 games at home....and one other at a neutral site.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Oct 2018, 16:35
#7
16 Oct 2018, 16:35#7

This is just the normal AO and Mozart BS.   One cannot help laughing when we see what the stupid morons come up with.     Mozart never realize how poor a coach Meyer actually was.   After all he was  the coach whose team lost against Japan and led the team to win 3 games in 9 tests played over a ten month period from November 2014 tp September 2015.  One of the three wins was against the Argentine "B" team.   

AO is still dreaming about a backline game plan of Meyer - which was never implemented.  He switched around a tale he propagated and come up with the following as corrected by me:-

"Meyer has never really  tried out anything, but clearly backline play was not his forte." 

He was totally ignorant when it came to backline play and both Willie le Roux and Pollard was really detrimental affected by his coaching and approach.   

As per normal the clueless AO does not have any idea about any contribution  players make to the backline - but to attack De Allende.   He has no idea about what alternatives there are and why Erasmus select certain players.   

All he has in every possible post is De Allende, De Allende, De Allende while  Mozart has Du Toit, Du Toit, Du Toit - with the two BSters always supporting  each other.  Brainless idiots should stick together.     


 

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
16 Oct 2018, 16:35
#8
16 Oct 2018, 16:35#8

I think these head coaches have alot more influence over backplay than many think. Under Jake there was a clear Brumbies influence, and that definitely didn't come from Coetzee. They dictate much of what goes on, so the way the backs are playing is definitely to do with Rassie. I cannot speak for the hands on back coaching as I have never observed how Stick coaches, but as I understand it, he has very limited experience coaching in general, much less coaching 15 man rugby. I don't think we have a lot of good backline experts so I'll go out on a limb and say he was largely a political appointment.

As I said in another thread, I don't disapprove of everything Rassie is doing. There has been a steady progression. We must just temper the hype with some balance. Too many are eager to hail him as a visionary. In Lügnerin's case its rather perplexing, as Rassie violates his golden rules of rugby in every test. 

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
16 Oct 2018, 16:46
#9
16 Oct 2018, 16:46#9

Rassie is using Pollard and Willie exactly the same way as Meyer, though the structures are a little more convoluted at times. So, if you don't like what Meyer did, you must hate Rassie. You can't have it both ways. Hence why I say Rassie isn't making it easy for you to defend him. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:04
#10
16 Oct 2018, 17:04#10

Problem is you lost the plot.   Both Pollard and brought a new breeze into backline play and in their first few tests they through individuality was really exciting.   In less than a year they deteriorated badly - since the absent game plan of Meyer never trained the other backline players to support them - and in the end the two could not play on their own.    There dropping from grace was exactly part of the Meyer flop as a coach. 

So why should I hate Erasmus - he is at this stage doing a much better job than Meyer ever did and indications are that the trend will continue as the players get used to play a better style of Rugby than Meyer ever achieved.      

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:11
#11
16 Oct 2018, 17:11#11
“Posted by: Chippo (1397 posts) Oct 16, 2018, 15:12 Rassie has only played sides ranked higher than the boks.” Have you consider how many sides were ranked higher than the Boks during HM’s four years as coach?
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:16
#12
16 Oct 2018, 17:16#12

Both Heyneke and Jake White are good coaches, but I suspect Rassie is a bit better. 

All three would walk into the top salary tier coaching jobs around the world any day of the week.

Meyers team is doing well in the French League, Jake White did well at the Brumbies. 

Rassie just needs an attack coach, I am not convinced about Stick- just on the basis that he does not appear to have any relevant experience.

Meyers recommendations were more about what he felt, rather than a guide of what to do. Rassie has the peer respect of both Jake White and Meyer, that much is clear.

It is beyond obvious that Alister Coetzee is a quota coach that should never have been selected.



DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:26
#13
16 Oct 2018, 17:26#13

Well Swys is there too... and most would concede that he was the real brains behind the Lions' attack  

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:28
#14
16 Oct 2018, 17:28#14

I've seen nothing better about Rassie. He was out-coached twice and blew the last test. He has the potential to be a very good coach, we'll see how he grows into the role. See where he takes the team. The important thing is that the team has improved. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Oct 2018, 17:52
#15
16 Oct 2018, 17:52#15
Rassie is responsible for the biggest choke in Bok history....doesn't mean he never improved the team over Coetzee. But he needs to wear that, so far the Rassistas and Rassie himself have failed to assign blame. According to Rassie it's not the bench's fault...so who's fault is it, the starters who had us 12 points ahead, or are the ABs just super human?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Oct 2018, 18:02
#16
16 Oct 2018, 18:02#16

Well, I think the Allblacks were lank lucky, fcn good...aaaand the inexperienced Bok bench choked a wee bit...aaand Rassie unloaded the Rooks on the bench too soon... an unfortunate set of events, but no need to reach for pitch forks and assemble a mob...we lost by 1 point to probably the best team to ever play the game ...and we choose to complain???

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
16 Oct 2018, 18:04
#17
16 Oct 2018, 18:04#17

Ja we should have won, I'm pissed off too.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Oct 2018, 18:13
#18
16 Oct 2018, 18:13#18
Draad....if that was HM he would have been served medium rare! My beef (no pun intended) is with a few things: 1. The subbing was designed to give Rassie a boost, and was at least 5 minutes early. 2 It's not clear Faf had to be subbed and Willie played last week.. 3 Rassie never admitted culpability....not even in the instructions the players were given, which clearly allowed them to attack at all costs. 4 Our media helped Rassie deflect the issue. As the NZ media said, if this was NZ, the press and Hansen himself would have tackled the issue head on. We say 'systems' are the difference in NZ rugby.....honesty, accountability and high standards are a bigger factor. These were all notably absent after our loss. Rassie obviously is our best solution right now, he has established himself. But I find his reaction to the loss to be evasive.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Oct 2018, 19:06
#19
16 Oct 2018, 19:06#19

Mozart

Back to the BS.   Erasmus  had no right to disobey the medics dealing with Le Roux and De Klerk was struggling a bit as a result of cramp and could not run full pace.

The other changes were late in the game mostly around minute 76 or later and the funny thing is that they could not be delayed by 5 minutes.

This type of posting by you are really total nonsense - but is in line with many of your other posts.  Totally unthinking and illo gical

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Oct 2018, 21:12
#20
16 Oct 2018, 21:12#20

As you all know i have for many years now supported Rassie and noted how people like fellow CA (SA) Cobus Visagie said Rassie is the sharpest rugby brain he had ever encountered.

This recognition of Rassie by top rugby people is widespread. Unfortunately some here have for many years trashed Rassie much as i tried to warn them of the foolishness of their stance! All evidence presented in favour of Rassie was glibly brushed aside and jokes made about the guy and the lights etc. Reason and logic flew out the door and what was the outcome. Mountains of EGG.

Well now the EGG has landed. hahahahahahahahaha. Now a certain amount of backtracking is taking play and one anticipates more of the same! Saving face they call it!

The best comment made by Meyer was when he said against England and France we need a big pack. All Rassie need to do is pick Snyman at lock and Du Preez at eight. Louw may also do a good job or us.

Willemse needs as much opportunity at 15 as he will be called upon on tour to play fullback.


sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
16 Oct 2018, 21:33
#21
16 Oct 2018, 21:33#21
Beeno and I both (there is a first!) supported Rassie from day one.
It was clear Rassie was the brains at the Stormers, and Coetzee road the gravy train and even started to believe that he was a decent coach. What a fool Alister Coetzee turned out to be- when he said he was a better coach than Rassie - at the time when SARU eventually terminated his hopelessness.
SA has about 5 good coaches - Rassie, Jake White, Heineke, Swys, Ackerman. The rest are useless.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Oct 2018, 21:38
#22
16 Oct 2018, 21:38#22

Sharkbokkie in your case it was a case of even a stuck clock being correct twice a day! Hahahahahahahahahahaha but well done even so!

Thought at the time i was alone on the issue but perhaps i am wrong. The argument goes back to the days Rassie was coaching Free Sate whilst still a player or thereabouts. Dr Moz will know when he first went wrong he has a memory of an elephant!

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
17 Oct 2018, 01:16
#23
17 Oct 2018, 01:16#23

Coetzee is a typical backline coach when taking charge. He implemented an unbalanced game, trying to attack. He needs to have very good players for his game to work. We don't have those kinds of players. He isn't a stupid coach, but he doesn't see the game realistically. He has a set way for doing things and needs the personnel to back that up. He also isn't very good with defence.

Rassie is being let off the hook because of the low bar set by Coetzee. We were being beaten by record scores and losing to almost every top ranked side. Once the dust settles, and expectations increase he'll have certain elements of his game more severely scrutinised. The fans will always want headless chicken rugby, and will begin criticising his kicking and defensive game. Many of those who are praising him now will turn on him. I know I'll be left to offer a more balanced perspective and defend him. It's inevitable. Every Bok coach ends in flames, regardless of success. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Oct 2018, 08:04
#24
17 Oct 2018, 08:04#24

Coetszee was never a backline coach of any ability at all.  He was picked as backline coach under White in 2007 - but he result was Eddie Jones was called in to help since Coetzee was useless.

His main problem in coaching of the Stormers was he destroyed whatever backline attacking ability the team had in the past.   h was really a nightmare in that regard and that was the reason why he was rated in an opinion pool as totally unacceptable as Springbok coach.   

The unbalanced game mentioned by AO is just another figment of his imagination -  it never happened.   The main problem was Coetzee was that the use of the backline for attacking purposes rarely happened.   The backline was only there for defense.   AO's imaginary play was just not happening and in the end was proved by the fact that in 2013 the Cheetahs backline players scored m ore tries than the whole Stormers team did.   The Stormers that year bottom the log when it came to scoring of tries in Super Rugby (21 tries) of which I think only 6 were scored by backline players.

Sorry AO - another daydream bites the dust.    

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
17 Oct 2018, 08:26
#25
17 Oct 2018, 08:26#25

The Boks backs attacked more than under Rassie. More carries, metres, offloads, defenders beaten, clean breaks etc. How someone be so wrong so often. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Oct 2018, 10:57
#26
17 Oct 2018, 10:57#26

The famous 2017 stats again.   Just ask few extra questions - was the Coetzee stats for the full 2017 year or not?

Secondly how much of the ball handling resulted in tries - whether the handling was by forwards or backline players and were the tries backline tries or not?   

You using of stats can be seriously defective without dealing with the results of the indicated stats.  Results is what count - stats does not necessarily reflect reality when used without the result of the stats being evaluated.    So try gain.  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Oct 2018, 15:01
#27
17 Oct 2018, 15:01#27
So if your results are 5/10 do the stats count less than if your results 6/9 (2017 with 1/2 a point for draws)......or do they count more.....or is there any relationship between the validity of stats and results? Explain the causation Tokkie.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Oct 2018, 15:32
#28
17 Oct 2018, 15:32#28

The result of ball handling are in reality of scoring of tries and the possible of penalties in favour of the ball carrier's team.  

If there are huge number of carries ending in zero real benefit and it ends in possession handovers or penalties against the carrier's team it loses much of its value.  I will give you a number of examples, but one should suffice.  Take the recent case of Esterhuizen.   In the Welsh test he carried the balls 12 times making two line breaks and beating 7 defenders - that looked very good - but one has to look at what happened in two carries that provided circa 50 meter gains combined.   After those wonderful breaks the ball possession was recovered by Wales in one case and in the other case he lost possession at the end of the run.   So the two runs did not have real benefit for the Springboks.    Exactly the same scenario happened in the away test against Argentina.     That is why I believe Erasmus was not really impressed by Esterhuizen performance in that test.  

The fact is the stats in the Wellington was massively favouring the AB's and they lost the test  and the reverse as true in the Pretoria test.


       

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
17 Oct 2018, 15:36
#29
17 Oct 2018, 15:36#29

Tries don't necessarily reflect how a team is playing Lügnerin. The other stats combined give a very good indication as to their inclination to attack or defend.

More carries, more defenders beaten, more clean breaks, more metres gained. How do these numbers not increase if they are not attacking more? Its interesting to note how significant the growth was from 2016 to 2017. I'd say we are experiencing much less a Rassie revival than an upswing in player ability. 

The stats make a complete mockery of your claims. In the end, Rassie is pl aying what you yourself defined as 2004 Bulle ball. It's something you have to live with. 

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
17 Oct 2018, 15:37
#30
17 Oct 2018, 15:37#30
I have said this many times before. The All Black stats often show them to kick more than their opponents. Making it an argument about kicking or running is very short sighted. What is much more important is the when to kick and when to run, and the execution of that decision. It is in that area that the AB' s excel. 
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
17 Oct 2018, 15:48
#31
17 Oct 2018, 15:48#31

Bluebok, we have Lügnerin launching personal attacks because we pointed out that the Boks kicking game has been poor most of the year. Lügnerin made it an issue to defend these poor kicks. Also the numerous tries which resulted from them. He claims aimless kicks were always made good by the chase, but our chasers routinely missed their target. Our defending after the kick has been particularly poor throughout the tests season.

As I said before, I don't necessarily disapprove of the tactic. I merely find 8t interesting that he defend Rassie when he berates other coaches like Jake and Meyer for focusing on the same thing: attacking in the opposition half! This is some humble pie to eat. He must defend Rassie no matter what, no matter if he plays a game Lügnerin claims is doff Bulle ball from 2004, because to do otherwise is to fall into the Meyer caml. These bizarre tribal bounds he has invented in his mind always lead him to disaster, and egg. 

— END OF THREAD —

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