Honestly the Bok team was awful....

....having now watched the full game as opposed to highlights, one is stunned at how bad we were. We only stayed alive trough Barbarian errors. Two of our tries came from complete lineout breakdowns by the Barbarians. And how many points did they squander with lost scrums and lineouts. With that kind of forward dominance you should win easily. But our backline was totally inept defensively.....our tight forwards and the Barbarians backs would have won this match by forty points. Actually the two best South African players on the park were du Preez and Akker. Du Preez behind a losing pack was significantly better than Lambie behind a winning pack, not auguring well for next week. Akker was much more prominent than Marx. For the rest Kriel was a non factor....doubling up with Jumbo to give the BaaBaas their first try....and generally ineffective. The wings were weak defensively...Jumbo and Sergeal. Sergeal was totally dominated. Nothing they did offensively against a hardly watertight Barbarians defence paid even the first month's rent on their defensive lapses. Combrink was sound but hardly inspiring. Venter kept turning inside and dying with the ball.....ineffective. Apparently looking for the offload isnt in the script. ... and how many tackles did he miss. Rohan was forceful and effective running the ball, but man is he raw defensively. Little old Lambie, what can one say.....irrelevant? As the Pom commentators pointed out ....totally lateral, milk toast with the ball in hand, easy to run over and conservative in his kicking. Page provided decent service and scurried well a few times to snuff out threats, The Beast and Adriaanse won the test. Marx finally got his lineout throwing functional, but honestly was hardly prominent. Stephanie scored the try and made one decent rip, okay I guess, not dominant. Eben was in second gear. Snyman I thought had a decent outing apart from one dropped ball, surprising given the carping at his form.....some of his feeds off the top looked almost in Air Matfield class. The loosies were below standard generally, but that's no surprise. The Bok camp can hardly have been lifted by that performance.

 Mozart
This type of interpretation of matches that made you look like a farce trying to get across rugby evaluation.   You damn the backline completely and said the game was won by the forwards.
Lets look at your standard attack on certain players.  What you wrote about Lambie and Du Toit is standard junk.   Then your faint praise of Snyman is also just coming through.
This kind of junk is fully expected from you and it is time that you go for the real problems in SA rugby.    Not a word about the dysfunctional loosie combination with Smith fighting a lone battle.   
Please start trying to be objective - but that is way past your abilities and knowledge of the game of rugby.       

Duplicate

 Here's the big learning for you Poof, the game was not "won". Figure that out and get back to me.

Moz, I reckon you are overlooking one very important factor. These guys have had zero time together. Especially as far as defense is concerned, you need to be organised and well drilled. You need to know your defensive system and your team mate. There is no way these inexperienced guys could have perfected that given the obvious lack of time to gel. Attack is less organised, and an area where individual brilliance is more likely to yield results, and that is exactly what we saw on Saturday.
That said, both Sergeal and Jumbo were poor on defense, but that is as much a physics problem as a defense problem. A 90kg (or less) man is always going to have his hands full tackling a 125kg man. However, both men showed some great intent on attack. Rohan had a good outing, and I didn't find him to be too lacking defensively, but again, these guys cannot be well drilled in any particular defensive system. 
The game didn't actually count for shart anyway, so now the peripheral players have had a shot, some put up their hands, and others are on their way home. For me, it was a good experiment.   

 Mozart
I never claimed the test was won - I merely stated all the time that it was a draw - in contrast to the constant losses of the SA teams since 2000.  
There were serious deficiencies in the team on Saturday and those are easily identifiable - but your identifying was so blatantly defective and prejudiced that it was farcical.  

 No Blue ... he didn't overlook anything.
He's just being deliberately obtuse.
That's his style. 


 

Bluebok hit the nail on the head...ZERO TIME TOGETHER showed throughout the game, especially on defense. They would need at least a couple more game together to make such a harsh review.

Bottomline is, they were just as "Barbarians" as the Barabarians themselves; meaning that they didn't have any playtime together before the game.

Case closed.

Rohan and Venter missed at least 3 tackles each. That had nothing to do with defensive systems....it had to do with one on one tackling. The fact is Rohan is a great attacking prospect, but hardly consistent on defence.....his S 15 stats were poor. In the S15 knockouts he manged a total of 9 tackles in 3 games and missed 4. NZ is examining the weaknesses of a player like Ardie Savea.....we wont even look at the weaknesses of players who otherwise have some real potential in other areas. Until our rugby press and coaches become demanding and ruthlessly honest, we will continue to go down the Allende, Kriel, Stepfontein, JJ, Lambie, Jantjies, Sergeal, Taute.....rat holes. Not one of these players had proven their suitability for test rugby when they were catapulted into the Bok team. And they all failed....so predictable, so sad for Bok rugby.

 So  you want Fat Fransie despite his serious failure on club  level this past week?  

Tokkie after all the lying you have done......who is going to believe a word you say?

Look, I agree that many players you have noted like JJ, Serfontein and company have failed, but the question is, who do we insert at 12 and 13 to fix the obvious gap we have in those positions. Currently we have players that can't defend or penetrate on attack. My logic is simple, take a young guy like Rohan with obvious attacking flair and hopefully he can be taught to be a more effective defender. 
Moz, I know Mike keeps harping on about Frans, but I am sure you can see that he too is not the answer. So a serious question, who would you call on to fix the gaping hole South Africa has at 12 and 13?

 Mozart
When I said Fat Fransie is a constant failure at center and flyhalf not a single person on the site bar you disagree with me.   He was desperately poor in the game on Saturday - but that is normal with him - so what else is new.    

Not fair to judge any number on the field higher than 10 on attacking ability.This is because it doesn't matter who you have outside Patrick Lambie, they will never look good. He is completely incompetent in igniting a back-line. He jogs across the field, doesn't draw in any defenders, and then throws a pass to the pour soul outside him. Look at the way Bernard Foley is playing these days, that's what we need in our side and Lambie isn't going to cut it. 

 MrPace
Are you talking of Morne Steyn and Fat Fransie here?

"This is because it doesn't matter who you have outside Patrick Lambie, they will never look good. He is completely incompetent in igniting a back-line. He jogs across the field, doesn't draw in any defenders, and then throws a pass to the pour soul outside him."

Hmmmm . . . now who was the last poster who had this irrational hatred of Pat Lambie . . . let's think . . .

LMAO!

Alutwat/DimSum/DesertFool/GonzoTheGimp . . . why don't you just admit what everyone already knows? You'll still look like a fool unfortunately but at least you'll look less of a fool than you do now.

Rooinek
T hat's a low of people that dislike Patrick Lambie....where there's smoke there's fire.

Well yes, I'm sure there are plenty people who are not that keen on Pat Lambie as a player and then those who actively dislike him . . . and then there's single-minded and obsessive hatred that turns into purple-faced rage at the very mention of his name . . . which is basically you!

 I don't see how anything I said indicates that I hate Pat Lambie.He seems like a very nice guy actually. I just don't think he's good for the Boks. No hatred. 

Careful Dim Sum . . . I mean MissedASpace . . . it can't be good for you teeth to grit them that tightly!

". . . why don't you just admit what everyone already knows?"

Okay, maybe not everyone . . .

LMAO!

 "Currently we have players that can't defend or penetrate on attack. My logic is simple, take a young guy like Rohan with obvious attacking flair and hopefully he can be taught to be a more effective defender. "
I agree with you but, and this is where our problem lies, the Bok squad is not the place where these skills should be taught. A player should be in the Bok set-up because he has the skills and not because he may be able to adopt them. 
I am often criticised for never rambling down "my Bok team/squad". The simple truth is that we may have players who are the best or among the best in their respective positions but real quality international players? Nah. Not many of those around,  I'm afraid. In addition to that,  I do not watch enough Super Rugby games to be able to put together such a team/squad.  That does not mean that I am not able or should not be allowed to judge players or teams, based on what I have seen. 
I have said,  often enough,  that in my opinion our problems are not at the National side. The situation with the National side is the result and a reflection of the crap that is going on below national level. The fact that we are sitting with clowns and puppets like AC,  Stick, etc does not help us a lot either. 

No argument here Cera, but it does not change the fact that we are where we are. We have to make do with what we have at our disposal, and our current crop of centers have all proven to be inadequate. So we are left with two choices, keep flogging a dead horse, or try something new with the hope that we will uncover a rough diamond. I am all for option B.  

 Of course we have to try and find new "ysters", BB but where? To carry on trying to reinvent the likes of De Allende, Jesse Kriel, et al is leading us nowhere. That does not mean I am saying that we need to bring back the 2007 squad, even though there are a few who would try to say that that is exactly what I want. All that I am saying is that we do not have the likes of a FDP, Jaque Fourie, Habana, Matfield, Bakkies, et al when they were at the top of their game and, sadly, there do not appear to be any on the horizon either.

To try and fix that by changing the Bok coaching set-up is not going to work either. They (SARU) wuill have to bite the bullet and started further down the line and try and fix what should have been started 20 years ago. Ain't know way that transformation/quotas/targets, or whatever bulls!t they want to try at National level, is going to work.

Lets take your argument a step further Bloo ......why persist with Lambie at 10? His only decent performances at 10 have been off the bench. He is too small, too indecisive, too slow to ever be a successful test 10. You can have one of those faults...not all of them. My approach to players is to start by looking at their flaws. Rohan is a powerhouse, but his defence is not great. He doesnt tackle that well and I'm not sure of his defensive nous. If we as a rugby country directly addressed these things, maybe his defence would be much better by now. Imagine if that 108 kgs could put in a few de Wet Barry hits! Almost all our failures have stemmed from a fatal flaw.....Kriel and JJ too weak, Allende frankly too stupid, Jantjies much too nervous to pull off his high risk style under pressure.....etc etc. Before we select another newbie like Rohan, along with embracing his power we have to at least recognize the weaknesses that have to be protected. I would select Frans at 10, Rohan at 12 and JP at 13......to get some guts into the inside backs.

 Mozart
Fat Fransie is too fat, too indecisive, to slow and too stupid to be a successful 10.   You cannot have all of those and be a successful 10.   He is a poor defender as a result of slow pace and on attack the same deficiency is in ample evidence. 
Lets just look at proof.   In 2014 he played at flyhalf and center for the Sharks.   He was responsible for 32 possession turnovers - mostly resulting from aimless kicks directly into touch and penalties for hanging on when caught in possession.
He was also accused of poor passing - and that was in evidence last Saturday as well.  In 2014 he specialized in neutralizing overlaps outside of him by making skip passes.   That is rank stupidity.
A ten must have ball sense and make quick decisions as to what is the most advantageous way to handle ball possession.   I am afraid Fat fransie has none of those qualities.  

 Mozart
Fat Fransie is too fat, too indecisive, to slow and too stupid to be a successful 10.   You cannot have all of those and be a successful 10.   He is a poor defender as a result of slow pace and on attack the same deficiency is in ample evidence. 
Lets just look at proof.   In 2014 he played at flyhalf and center for the Sharks.   He was responsible for 32 possession turnovers - mostly resulting from aimless kicks directly into touch and penalties for hanging on when caught in possession.
He was also accused of poor passing - and that was in evidence last Saturday as well.  In 2014 he specialized in neutralizing overlaps outside of him by making skip passes.   That is rank stupidity.
A ten must have ball sense and make quick decisions as to what is the most advantageous way to handle ball possession.   I am afraid Fat fransie has none of those qualities.  

I do agree with your selection for the 10, 12 and 13 slots.
The back line has not shown any attacking plays and have been extremely weak on defense.
This is shown by the number of points scored in tries both for and against them.
Time to make both the bold and correct move as u suggested.
Frans Steyn is by far heads and shoulders above the others who have filled the fly-half berth since Pollard was injured.
He runs straight, has power plus the boot.
Plus with Rohan and JP outside him they will add strength in attack and defense to a current non existing  back line.

"To get some guts"???

By putting Rohan between a fat thug and a mentally challenged winger? Good luck with that!
Not even the best player in the world would thrive in the middle of such mediocrity.

 quacky96 and your selection is.

 I'll play the hooker, playing 10 for the Cheaters ahead of Fransie as Bok FH and an actual 13 ahead of JP outside Ruan.

 AJ
I would not ascribe the positives you have listed insofar as Fat Fransie is concerned as a given.    If those were true - why is it never reflected on the field of play when he played for the Sharks and even at his present club. 
I stay with my contention - Steyn needs time to make decisions and that time he does not have at flyhalf.   He is much more known for killing backline play than anything else since he has no ball sense.     I agree with Draad in this case - he should never be in the Springbok set-up.     

 The only thing we know for sure about Frans is at flyhalf he had the best winning streak in Super 2014....you cant dispute facts.

 Neither can you dispute facts.   Neither can you say he did not lose ball possession for the Sharks 32 times - that his defense stats was worse than De Allende - that in the full year he made 2 line breaks beating 8 defenders.  Those are facts and nobody can dispute that.   That he was ball hogging and that he was rated as the 32nd rated center in the competition.    

 Actually I do dispute those facts....publish them in source form. Otherwise clamp your false teeth and shut the .....up.

 Those facts came from ESPN and was on this site ever since 2014.   They are factual - but you nearly blew up when they were posted and whitewash Steyn by claiming at the time that his real value is not covered by stats.   Those stats indicated a sub-par player the worst of any center or fjy half in Super 15.  
You can check the facts if you wish to prove me wrong - but I am sorry you will find them as factual.   I will not stop putting facts on the table to counter your fictional lies.   .   

 Rohan's supposed defensive issues isn't as big a train smash as Mozart would have us believe. He's solid as a defender and brings a lot more to the 12 jersey than Fats ever has.  
Things is though ... he doesn't like him. Never has. Never will ... but has been forced to curb his blushes with a few favourable reports on him ... just in case.
Haven't you guys cottoned on to him yet? 

It's one bullsh!t story after another.
Remember when he told us that he wanted Fats in the Bok 12 jersey ... over Rohan? 
Remember when he told us that he wouldn't really play Rohan at 13 either but felt he had no choice due to the lack of decent 13's? 
All that's changed now. A complete 180.
Suddenly Rohan is the man for the Bok 12 jersey. Fats is no longer the hero there. Rohan is and the only reason he is, is because of the cracker he had over the weekend.
We would all have heard the "I told you so" from this mor0n had Rohan had a shocker but he didn't and so he's in.  
We watched Rohan have an incredible season this year. During that time Mozart was telling us about the tiny De Jongh and what a poor player Rohan is.  He's apparently as bad as De Allende.    
Remember when he told us all that Morne was the man for the Bok 10 jersey? That we were all stupid for disliking him? That he's been dropped due to public ignorance?
You remember that? 
Well what happened to keeping him in the 10 jersey? Is he no longer the rugby god we were told? Fats Fransie, who by the way hasn't had a decent season for the last 8 years, is suddenly his replacement at 10.
WTF??
What did the poor Morne do to deserve this kind of treatment? I thought he was the answer to all our prayers.  

I'll tell you what. Mozart suddenly realised that he was an ignorant fool, making the usual twat of himself and so has tried to correct it by claiming he's always been in favour of Rohan at 12 and Fats at 10. 
Mozart doesn't know his arse from elbow. It's always been the case with him.
He wings it as he goes along. 
An ar$ehole of note.

 Yawn.....
Regards
Rabada.