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FORUM / RUGBY /  How many test tackles has Juan missed?

How many test tackles has Juan missed?

Started by Mozart28 REPLIES465 VIEWS· 04 Feb 2014, 20:03
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Feb 2014, 20:03
#1
04 Feb 2014, 20:03#1

According to OOm and Dave and Shezza he gets tossed aside, like a piece of flotsam. Turns out he has missed 4 tackles. It's interesting to note though that only one of those came against NZ.....he did, however, make 23 successfully. For some 23 out of 24 tackles against the ABs might suggest a centre is a good defender. Overall in tests he makes 51 tackles and misses 4 for a 93% success ratio.

 

I'm thinking 93% might just be the highest success ratio of any of our centres, going a long way back.

 

Pesky facts....they tend to blow up so many stupid arguments.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Feb 2014, 20:17
#2
04 Feb 2014, 20:17#2

 Mozert


Pesky facts it may be of years ago.  There is one thing though since then  and that is that players find out about new ones and adjust their style slightly to overcome the problems they may have had in the past.   That is why De Jongh's tackle stats have deteriorated so badly - he has been found out and is in fact tossed aside quite easily nowadays.


Opposition teams love to have him to play against -- he is just not up to standard.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Feb 2014, 20:35
#3
04 Feb 2014, 20:35#3

Balls OOOOM.....here's the demise of Dave's size argument that there are no 195 lb centres playing test rugby. I'm guessing his man JJ wishes this was the case as Bosch cut past him like a knife through butter. We start with the "new 6 Nations star" Campagnaro who cut Wales apart and scored two tries:

 

Full name Michele Campagnaro Born March 13, 1993, Mirano Current age 20 years 328 days Major teams Benetton Treviso, Italy Under-20s, Italy Position Centre Height 6 ft 0 in Weight 194 lb   Full name Marcelo Tristan Bosch Born January 7, 1984, Buenos Aires Current age 30 years 28 days Major teams Argentina Jaguares, Biarritz, Saracens, Argentina Position Centre Height 6 ft 1 in Weight 198 lb     Full name Wesley Fofana Born January 20, 1988, Paris Current age 26 years 15 days Major teams Clermont Auvergne, France Position Centre Height 5 ft 10 in Weight 194 lb   Full name Gordon William D'Arcy Born February 10, 1980, Wexford Current age 33 years 359 days Major teams Barbarians, British and Irish Lions, Leinster, Ireland Position Centre Height 5 ft 11 in Weight 200 lb   Full name Anthony S. Fainga'a Born February 2, 1987, Queanbeyan Current age 27 years 2 days Major teams Australia Barbarians, Brumbies, Reds, Australia Position Centre Height 6 ft 0 in Weight 202 lb   Full name Berrick Steven Barnes Born May 28, 1986, Brisbane Current age 27 years 252 days Major teams Australia A, Australia Barbarians, Reds, Waratahs, Australia Position Fly-half, Centre Height 6 ft 0 in Weight 191 lb  Full name Gonzalo Pedro Tiesi Born April 24, 1985, Buenos Aires Current age 28 years 286 days Major teams Harlequins, London Irish, London Welsh, Newcastle Falcons, Stade Français, Argentina Position Centre Height 6 ft 0 in Weight 202 lb   Full name David Marty Born October 30, 1982, Perpignan Current age 31 years 97 days Major teams Perpignan, France Position Centre Height 5 ft 11 in Weight 190 lb   Full name Maxwell Brian Evans Born September 28, 1983, Torquay Current age 30 years 129 days Major teams Castres, Glasgow, Scotland A, Scotland Position Centre Height 5 ft 9 in Weight 189 lb  Full name Sukanaivalu Ikavuka Hufanga Born June 18, 1982, Hourna Current age 31 years 231 days Major teams Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Tonga Position Wing Height 5 ft 11 in Weight 193 lb     Full name Maxime Mermoz Born July 28, 1986, Epinal Current age 27 years 191 days Major teams Perpignan, Toulon, France Position Centre Height 5 ft 11 in Weight 197 lb     Full name Tobias Gerald Albert Lieven Flood Born August 8, 1985, Frimley Current age 28 years 180 days Major teams Leicester Tigers, Newcastle Falcons, England Position Fly-half Height 6 ft 2 in Weight 200 lb     Full name Matthew James Giteau Born September 29, 1982, Sydney, NSW Current age 31 years 128 days Major teams Barbarians, Brumbies, Force, Toulon, Australia Position Centre Height 5 ft 10 in Weight 187 lb
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Feb 2014, 21:04
#4
04 Feb 2014, 21:04#4

 Mozart


I am not married to the size issue that counts with Saffex.   My norm is different and relates basically to the following order:-


1   Big players with ball sense


2  Smaller players with ball sense


3   Big players playing muscle rugby - without real ball sense.


4   Small players without ball sense.


1 and 2 will be successful test players - 3 and 4 will ultimately fail.


Michele Campagnaro and Wesley Fofana is firmly in category 2   De Jongh is a definite category 4.


That is why size in De Jongh's case is misleading - if he was a ball sense player - it would have brought him into the equation, nut since he is not - he is to my mind out.


Whether you like not or not De Jongh's defence last year was putrid - there can be no argument about that,    Why quote stats of years ago and not the latest series stats?  And how do you account for the decrease in performance insofar as defence is concern.


And the poor little bugger is injured again - he missed a lot of matches last year - something the Stormers should have been grateful for.    So he is out for the next couple of weeks and the Stormers will have a decent center pair in those games.   

   



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Feb 2014, 23:40
#5
04 Feb 2014, 23:40#5
Balls OOOOm. What our fans miss is we have an advantage in all these small, strong, fast chaps....Williams,.Keyser, Paulse, Habana, Aplon....de Jongh. These are some of our most creative, highest scoring players. By and large they come from the Cape Community. Paulse played against Lomu for years and almost always got the better of him....using his instincts to rob the big man of chances.
So because NZ, Oz, England are well supplied with Pacific Island players who are big and fast....we supposedly have to employ only similar types.
Nonsense...we certainly need balance. But as our 7s team shows, the small guys can be match winners. They are a great resource, the profligate attitude that has wasted a talent like Aplon is  such outdated thinking
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 00:00
#6
05 Feb 2014, 00:00#6
Ha ha the little Italian centre is a nobody

Bosch weighs 92kg
Fofana weighs 93kg 
D'Arcy 91kg
Fainga'a is crap and is nothing more than an Oz bench player but not even that
Barnes plays mostly at 10, never cracked the nod in 2013 at centre
Tiesi who?
Marty has not smelt a French selection in ages
Evans is a poor Scot who has not smelt selection in ages
Mermoz does not play centre, he is a wing
Flood is a 10
Giteau has not played for Oz in ages
There are no little 87kg outside centres playing test rugby currently



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 00:13
#7
05 Feb 2014, 00:13#7
Sure some of these guys are past it, but every player on this list apart from Campa have played lots of tests. Fofana and Bosch are in the top 5 13 s in the game. Campa  had a brilliant game against Wales including two tries and a magnificent outside gap on the half.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 00:26
#8
05 Feb 2014, 00:26#8
Yep Fofana is a top 12 and weighs 93kg.......Bosch a top 13 who weighs 92kg, but I suspect he weighs more than that these days

The rest are mostly insignificant and are not current choices 

Little Campa was a late inclusion and looked handy enough, but will he sustain the form given his size.......no he wont
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 00:32
#9
05 Feb 2014, 00:32#9
As I suspected Bosch at 94kg

http://au.eurosport.com/rugby/marcelo-bosch_prs109071/person.shtml


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 02:10
#10
05 Feb 2014, 02:10#10

Using the same source is more valid. Bosch looked like 89  kgs of beef whipping past the the statue JJ

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 02:27
#11
05 Feb 2014, 02:27#11

Mozart


Balls.   You mixed up some real ball sense players with a dud.  All the players bar De Jongh had a record of try scoring - De Jongh does not have that.   


I agree with your statement "These are some of our most creative, highest scoring players".    Problem is that you generalized and forget about the fact that De Jongh does not belong in the category "creative, highest scoring category" you try to place him in.  The other players were both creators of tries and try scorers.  De Jongh never creates tries and rarely scores them.  


Lets analyse a few of the players mentioned by you and test their scoring abilities for the WP - in Super 15 and for SA:-


Paulse


Games played   :    201  

Tries scored      :    121

Average            :    In every 10 matches played  - 6 tries


Habana


Games played   :    251  

Tries scored      :    117

Average            :    In every 10 matches played  - 5 tries

      

De Jongh


Games played   :    110  

Tries scored      :      27

Average            :    In every 10 matches played  - 2,5 tries



There is no way that you can compare the try scoring abilities of De Jongh with those of Paulse and Habana.   It is even misleading to put De Jongh in the same league or category as them.  Aside from tries scored by themselves, Habana and Paulse created many more tries scored by others.  Nobody in his right mind can ever accuse De Jongh of creating tries for others to score.   


Generalized statements like those referring about the Coloureds are definitely true - but when dealing with individual players and see their abilities you cannot generalized and say because that player is Coloured  he is one of  "our most creative, highest scoring players"   


Based on actual performances and statistics De Jongh falls way  short and flowery language will not make up for that.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 02:29
#12
05 Feb 2014, 02:29#12
Ag ou Mike I have read enough of your crap for one day.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 02:34
#13
05 Feb 2014, 02:34#13

Mozart


Because I dealt in facts and figures and not flowery generalizations - it is crap.   What you wrote about De Jongh is indeed far-fetched crap.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 16:23
#14
05 Feb 2014, 16:23#14

But OOm your man Lambie has scored one try in 32 tests. Dave's man Olivier scored one try in 37 tests. That amounts to 0.32 of a try for lambie and 0.27 of a try for Olivier, in every 10 tests!!!!!! Yet both of you have howled for their inclusion.

 

Maybe that was too easy....I'll give you another chance.  Oom here's the challenge....reproduce the tackling stats and see if   de Jongh still doesn't belong in the group.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 16:55
#15
05 Feb 2014, 16:55#15

A few facts on my man Olivier, firstly he was always my choice as a back-up to Jean and Frans, so never a 1st choice......he was 3rd in line and that was reflected in the number of times he started at 12 in a test.

 

 

Most of his caps were off the bench or out of position on the wing or at 13

 

 

Always good to add some context to those stats

 

 

Had he started 37 tests at 12 and only scored 1 try then we could have taken issue with him.

 

 

His true ability is better measured in his Bulls performances where he has scored 61 tries, not bad for a 12......compare that to Marius Joubert who only scored 30 odd tries for his provinces

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 17:17
#16
05 Feb 2014, 17:17#16
Well Dave he started 14 times as inside centre and 7 times as outside centre and never scored a try as starter....zippo.  So that means his number is  0.0 tries per ten tests vs de Jongh's 3 tries in 14 tests or 2 tries per every 10 tests.
Game, set and match!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 17:31
#17
05 Feb 2014, 17:31#17

Mozart


Lambie is not a center.  He normally plays at flyhalf   But here goes.  Lambie played in 112 games for the Sharks and the Springboks - his international career included a substantial number games where he was on the bench and came on for a limited time only.   His record was as follows:-


Games played   :     112  

Tries scored      :       32

Average            :    In every 10 matches played  - 2,9 tries


That is noticeably better than Juan de Jongh's record and Lambie have the additional advantage of scoring another 711 points kicking at goal.  However - since Lambie played at flyhalf and full back there are various factors that mitigates against the usage of comparisons in this case.


I have gone further and looked at the record of JJ Engelbrecht as well:-


Games played   :       34  

Tries scored      :       11

Average            :    In every 10 matches played  - 3,2 tries


From a try scoring perspective it is clear that De Jongh is definitely not an international standard player. 

 

I was never a Meisiekind fan and he is not a sound basis to try and identify and base  national selection on.    He just was not good enough.  

   

I do have some time available and will check De Jongh's tackle stats in Super 15 last year.   I know it was very poor and unacceptable, but will give the final count tonight.  In view of general allegations made I will look at other factors in ball handling and penalties as well. 


 

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
05 Feb 2014, 17:42
#18
05 Feb 2014, 17:42#18
thats a pretty good defensive record for test level, espn mozter???

i like du jong as a player, always have, but i feel like theres just 3 or 4 much better options for the Boks.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
05 Feb 2014, 17:44
#19
05 Feb 2014, 17:44#19
@mikey,

BTW good to see temuera morrison on the toilet avatar again, lolz,
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 18:00
#20
05 Feb 2014, 18:00#20

And of those tests at 12, how many were consecutive? Olivier has never had the opportunity to settle at 12 because Jean and Frans were better options.......but saying that Olivier was a damn fine centre, far better than you make him out to be and certainly far better than the likes of de Wet Barry, de Jongh or Adi Jacobs.

 

 

He would have done the Boks proud had he been allowed to settle at 12 if we never had Jean or Frans  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 18:09
#21
05 Feb 2014, 18:09#21
 Rubbish Dave he was a slow, ponderous player, much like Taute. The writing was on the wall when Giteau cut him to pieces in one of his first tests.
Jacobs by contrast was highly effective in 2008 and scored 7 tries in 21 starts.
Oddly for a guy who played centre you make disastrous centre calls..Olivier, Murray, Taute and JJ being players who will never be test successes, who you just keep pumping. And then your early call to drop Jean for the unproven Serfontein....all nutty as a fruit cake.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 18:33
#22
05 Feb 2014, 18:33#22

Mozart


I am not particularly interested in what happened years ago with De Jongh in tests.  He played two tests in 2012 and made 6 tackles and missed none.   Since he did voiirtually nothing ever in both tests the issue is inconsequential and of not much use.


What is more pertinent is what happened in Super 15 in 2012 and 2013 and I have done an analusiis of both years:-


2012


Matches Played   -    17

Tries scored        -     3

Tries per 10 matches scores - 1,8

Try assists          -     0

Clean Breaks       -    11

Defenders Beaten  -   27

Posession Lost       -    6

Tackles made        -   90

Tackles missed      -   13

Missed tackle ratio - 12,75%


Defence was acceptable at a missed tackle ratio of 12,75% - rest of performances not impressive at all .  He had one good game against the Rebels scoring two tries, making 4 clean breaks and beating   5 defenders - for the rest he was average at best. 



2013


Matches Played   -    10

Tries scored        -     3

Tries per 10 matches scores - 3,3

Try assists          -     0

Clean Breaks       -     6

Defenders Beaten  -   13

Posession Lost       -    1 

Tackles made        -   36

Tackles missed      -   20

Missed Tackle Ratio -  35,7%


Again De Jongh had one good game - this time against the Cheetahs.  He scored 2 tries in that game.  For the rest he was average in performances in all games played.


However - his defence disintegrated completely and a missed tackle ratio of 36,7% was a disgrace.    That is the main reason why he cannot continue as a 13 for the Stormers  

 


  

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Feb 2014, 18:48
#23
05 Feb 2014, 18:48#23

Oh what nonsense, he was no slower than Jean or Frans, had perfect speed for a 12 and had a great step on him, better than Jean has.

 

 

He was anything but ponderous and that is evidenced by his 61 tries for the Bulls, double that of your favourite Marius Joubert.

 

 

Jacobs was a complete flop, much like de Jongh has been......neither were ever merit selections.

 

 

As for my choices as centres......they are spot on. Jean and Frans have been my choices at 12, Fourie was my choice at 13.........Jean and Fourie are past it.......we need to move on.

 

 

Frans still has plenty to offer at 12 and Serfontein is the new real deal who should be starting for us. JJ at 13 is the best prospect at 13 I have seen since readmission......this lad has more attacking clout than Snyman, Joubert, Mulder or Fourie ever had.

 

Taute only had 3 tests at centre and did a damn solid job, he is anything but slow and ponderous. There is a reason this lad played two seasons for the Baby Boks and walked straight into the Bok set up........Coetzee has already said he will be playing Taute at 13 during the S15.

 

 

Moz, you are the worst when it comes to centres........your support for damn average players like Jacobs and de Jongh has long blighted your record........not to mention your anti Fourie over the years.......that never made sense, especially considering your bizarre support for Jacobs, given how poor he was.

 

 

I know my centres   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 18:56
#24
05 Feb 2014, 18:56#24
Olivier no slower than Jean. You need your head read. Jean was a tick slower than Habana over the 40... He is damn fast. You have never grasped that.
Nor have you grasped that Taute, Olivier, JJ and Murray have made zero positive contributions to Bok rugby. Not will they.
You were wrong....live with it. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 19:22
#25
05 Feb 2014, 19:22#25

Mozart


I did what you asked me to do as to the defensive stats of De Jongh.   To my horror it was discovered that he missed 35,7% of all attempted tackles in Super 15 last year - that was even 8,7% higher than the figure I used in the past.


There is no way that a person with that kind of missed tackle ratio should ever be considered for higher level selection.


It is interesting to note that in 2013 the missed tackle ratio of Engelbrecht was 20% lower than that of De Jongh and that of Jordaan 29,7% lower.  Jordaan got run once in all games by Freuan and for the rest of the games played missed 3 tackles in total.   De Jongh got run over frequently - but you still insist he is a g ood defender - what a joke!!!   



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Feb 2014, 19:49
#26
05 Feb 2014, 19:49#26
Say Mike why don't you comment on Lambie, the great attacker's, one try in 32 tests.....man and you had the temerity to question de Jongh's strike rate!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Feb 2014, 20:31
#27
05 Feb 2014, 20:31#27

 Mozart


Real baloney again.   I looked at all games on CC level and higher,   If you want to compare apples with apples - you should not compare a flyhalf with another flyhalf.  and if you want me to I will dig up the info on Morne Steyn.   That should n ake for some interesting reading.


Meantime - no comments on the defence stats of De Jongh or does it hurt too much to even try to defend the indefensible?   

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
06 Feb 2014, 12:30
#28
06 Feb 2014, 12:30#28
 Here's a little tid-bit for Michael, it will help level out his 'analysis' process. In defending, there is the instance of the individual making his tackle, and there is the system of defence whereby the players inside and outside the main defender assist in thwarting the attacker. This, when done properly, creates problems for the attack, because a solitary runner - against a properly organized defensive system - cannot breach the gainline with any success in almost all instances. This is where rugby was for some years after 1999, when defences were dominant over attack; the solution of which was to find structures that could make a breach over that organized column at any point utilizing 2 and 3 main running structures. No here is the take home message: at what point does the individual suffer the team or the system suffers the players? It is common knowledge that the coaching staff have not been successful at the Stormers, you yourself stated as much. I even made a bold prediction in 2010 that the Stormers defence would suffer overall for the reliance on it and the toll it takes on the players to execute it over the course of multiple seasons, the cumulative effect. At no point in your little analysis do you ever address these issues. I will say this, you would make a wonderful scientist such is your bias and deception.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Feb 2014, 12:35
#29
06 Feb 2014, 12:35#29

Moz you are speaking crap......Jean has never been fast.......the fact that he was marginally slower than Habana over 40m in 2012 means nothing given the fact that Habana is no longer the speedster of old.

 

 

JJ has made a very positive contribution to Bok rugby, scoring 4 tries in 9 starts and showing against the AB's exactly what we need from a Bok 13, so much so that Meyer has awarded him a Bok contract.

 

 

Taute has only played 3 or so tests so to judge him as a test player is laughable.

 

 

Olivier lived off scraps as a test player and I am able to judge him based on that fact.......he was always there as a buck-up 12 and a damn fine player at that.

 

 

I have said very little about Murray as a test player.......I always spoke of potential......injuries dictated. I just know he was a far better 13 than Adi Jacobs ever was  

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