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FORUM / RUGBY /  How Strong id Wakes?

How Strong id Wakes?

Started by clevermike24 REPLIES266 VIEWS· 23 Nov 2013, 07:06
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Nov 2013, 07:06
#1
23 Nov 2013, 07:06#1

I was watching the game between Wales and Tonga last night.  My own impression was that Wales did not include some players who played against SA two weeks ago in the team - and this may have weakened the team.


However, in watching the game last night and the poor play of many of the Welsh players I had an uneasy feeling about the real strength of Wales as a team.   They had some real difficulties in their scrumming - and it times their defence was not very good,   The fact that they somehow seems to struggle to win against a very low-rated team and end up winning by 17-10 does not represent a convincing performance.


The real problem is that the Springboks performance against Wales was not all that bright either and that our backline was not as effective as it should have been - resulting in a really unconvincing win by the Springboks - makes me feel really uneasy.  That unease is further strengthened by the fact that last year we struggled to beat Scotland - yet the  following week Tonga beat Scotland with ease,    In last Sundays test the 28-0 victory of the Springboks seems really convincing but 14 of the points came from moments of individual brilliance by Le Roux - while five of the top Scottish players were not available and without them Scotland really is an under-strength team.   


Granted a win is a win - but on the whole the above raise questions as to the real strength of the Springbok team.   In the first circa 30 minutes of the game - the Springbok forwards were attacking continuously - but managed to score only one try.  That was followed by the two brilliant tries by Le Roux and Pietersen - the latter also as a result of the brilliance of Le Roux. 


What happened in the rest of the game?   The problem in the main circled around a few players.   Fourie did nothing in attack - he basically was useless in that aspect of the game.   Bakkies Botha was factually and statistically poor.   Steenkamp was a joke in bad taste  and Alberts ran out of steam.  The latter tried a high number of ball carries before replacement - 10 in fact - but the average territory gain was circa 2 meters per carry - which really showed nothing much.  


That brings me to todays game.   The weak links in the Springbok team as ,mentioned are still around and the team is in fact weakened by the inclusion of Morne Steyn at flyhalf ahead of Lambie.  France is no doubt a much stronger team than Scotland - so with five passengers in the playing 23 today can we beat them?  I doubt it very much               

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 07:20
#2
23 Nov 2013, 07:20#2
watching the wales v tonga match i couldnt help wondering why both teams were playing in their away strip???

the normal colours of tonga and wales are red, but wales played in green and tonga in white.
it looked like ireland vs england, and with all those polynesian players in white, very fitting considering englands change in attitude regarding playing islanders, something i remember them being very vocal and b itchy about in the very recent past,
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 07:35
#3
23 Nov 2013, 07:35#3
@mikey,

its a mistake to measure a teams strength based on a test, their season as a whole is better indication.

wales vs Boks saw the scoreline flatter the Boks, after all a simple referral to the TMO would have ruled out du preezs try making it 17-15 contest which very respectable considering the Boks status as the number 2 team.

wales are good, as are england france and ireland, but despite the wallys being currently shit under mackenzie the inept, SANZAR teams are still head and shoulders above everyone else including the best from the NH.
(sidenote, and ofcourse in that little subset of SANZAR teams, the All Blacks play the role of the alphamale, we need only show our fangs and the boks and wallys whimper back into their subserviant roles and rank, )

despite claims by some that the gap is closing, IMO its just not true and i can see no evidence of that.

france v Boks could be a real cracker of match, im expecting something similar to the Boks welsh test, but despite me agreeing with u about some of those selections, it s still more then enough to put away the french.
of course it does nothing in helping u guys for the 2015 RWC or the even bigger hurdle of the All Blacks who IMO the Boks will never beat with meyer at the helm.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Nov 2013, 09:12
#4
23 Nov 2013, 09:12#4
 Mikey you got a bit of a cold mate going by the title above !Wales did well to stage their comeback in the 6N ,some money on them at the start would have paid a bit I reckon.
PI
Pine in IrelandClub Pro101 posts
23 Nov 2013, 13:44
#5
23 Nov 2013, 13:44#5
 U cant compare last years tests to this year. Firstly the boks have improved since last year. Look at somoa last year compared to last year and did u see what wales did to the argies. So u cant really compare. There are many other games that make ur post pointless.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Nov 2013, 14:50
#6
23 Nov 2013, 14:50#6
 


sasuke uchiha

Status: Senior player
Posts: 3570 RE: How Strong id Wakes?
November 23, 2013, 05:35:58 @mikey,



its a mistake to measure a teams strength based on a test, their season as a whole is better indication.

wales vs Boks saw the scoreline flatter the Boks, after all a simple referral to the TMO would have ruled out du preezs try making it 17-15 contest which very respectable considering the Boks status as the number 2 team.


A simple referral to the TMO in a certain game would have ruled that a certain tackle on a certain ref-protected rugby "royalty" was on the receiving end of a perfectly and well-executed legal tackle, earlier this year.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Nov 2013, 15:19
#7
23 Nov 2013, 15:19#7

Pine in Ireland 


There are some references to games where the Springboks showed some improvement and I assume you are referring to the RC.   Sure there was signs of improvement in two tests - such a the away test against Australia and the fact that we did not draw in Mendoza - but scrape in with a narrow win this year.  


Australia went through a serious sip in form this year.   The home win against them this year was less impressive than the win last year.   For the rest we played 3 low rated teams in June and even in that case battled to win against the Scots.


As to the AB tests we showed more of a fighting spirit against them in the Ellis Park test - but really not much in the Eden Park test.  


In essence the reasons for the loss at Ellis Park can be ascribed to poor defence and decision making.   In the defence and decision making scenarios there were three players who buggered up badly and their bugger-ups all led to AB tries.   The three are -

1  Morne Steyn;

2  Willem Alberts; and

3  JJ Engelbrecht


Meyer decided to retain two of the players and in the recent matches played Fourie at 13.   Was he really an improvement?   The answer is no - he was not if the assessment of Planet Rugby is borne in mind.   His defence was badly exposed by Davies in the Welsh test and he did nothing in attacking play during the Scotland test.   Lucky for us Morn Steyn was replaced early in the Welsh test.   In the said test he showed a gaping hole in defence again and if he remained on the field of play - and Davies was not injured - we would have been in serious trouble with the Fourie-Steyn defence in tatters - as it was before the Davies injury. 


Alberts - a player with a very limited capacity in respect of most loosie functions - is still in the team and our loosie performance will remain nothing more than average - or in some respects inadequate - because of his one-dimensional capacities/ performances.        


Did the new selections - Bakkies Botha and Fourie-  improve the team?   All indications are that they did not and my fear is that Meyer will persist with them and we are  going to go backwards in those two positions - rather than forward.   And as long as Morne Steyn is flyhalf - so long we will be ranked 2 or lower as a rugby-playing nation.  


The above are facts not fiction and I do not see much advancement unless Meyer gets rid of the handicaps in the team.   no team can advance with a one-dimensional flyhalf and players with deficiencies selected only because of their reputation   - while there are better players that could bring improvements in performances.     

PI
Pine in IrelandClub Pro101 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:04
#8
23 Nov 2013, 16:04#8
 Firstly yes or no. has the boks improved? Secondly do u think u should compare games from last year when it comes to present from?
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:11
#9
23 Nov 2013, 16:11#9
If you do a comparison you need to correctly identify the details. Poor Mike can't concede that the Boks were thumping Wales right up to the very second that Morne left and the it faded.

Meyer has, essentially, done everything he said he was going to do. Gradually add to the gameplan as he developed the personnel. He had to find stability at lock, flank, 8, halfback, centres and the back three. That's most of the team. But now we see massive improvements in all areas of our game. Did you know that we are the only team in the Rugby Championship to achieve 100% on our own scrum ball? Must be the first in Bok history for a SH tournament. At the breakdown we have been dominant, the loose trio is rampant! Stop being so negative Mike, it is rather embarrassing to behold the little Mike who cried disaster in the face of overwhelming success.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:18
#10
23 Nov 2013, 16:18#10
@ceradyne,

"A simple referral to the TMO in a certain game would have ruled that a certain tackle on a certain ref-protected rugby "royalty" was on the receiving end of a perfectly and well-executed legal tackle, earlier this year."

thank u for proving my point but i dont need u to do that for me, the locals might not like the truths i force feed down their throat, but the truth is never easy to swallow, especially for Bok fans,

but a simple referral on the incident to the TMO would have worked wonders, even with bizzy which u so ambiguously mentioned.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:19
#11
23 Nov 2013, 16:19#11

Pine


For the record yes there was a slight improvement - I would say by about 10% - but ther are still serious deficiencies that needs correction for us to reach the number 1 ranking in world rugby


I am not so sure about present form of players.  Morne is still Morne - though his kicking at goal was better this year than last year - but his defence deteriorated.   Jannie Du Plessis went backwards from last year and Alberts remained what he was.  


I would say the biggest improvement was Willie le Roux insofar as he team is concerned - and De Villiers and Habana maintained their normal high level of play.  Etzebeth was also better than last year.  


On record the team should have been substantially better than last  year - but for the handicaps that we still have in the team and those have ben identified already.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:19
#12
23 Nov 2013, 16:19#12

Pine


For the record yes there was a slight improvement - I would say by about 10% - but ther are still serious deficiencies that needs correction for us to reach the number 1 ranking in world rugby


I am not so sure about present form of players.  Morne is still Morne - though his kicking at goal was better this year than last year - but his defence deteriorated.   Jannie Du Plessis went backwards from last year and Alberts remained what he was.  


I would say the biggest improvement was Willie le Roux insofar as he team is concerned - and De Villiers and Habana maintained their normal high level of play.  Etzebeth was also better than last year.  


On record the team should have been substantially better than last  year - but for the handicaps that we still have in the team and those have ben identified already.

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:19
#13
23 Nov 2013, 16:19#13
 "Truth is never easy to swallow"

South Africa won 2 World Cups
New Zealand won 1 World Cup


MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:36
#14
23 Nov 2013, 16:36#14
 "Truth is never easy to swallow"

NZ won 2 RWC
SA won 2 RWC

NZ won 12 super titles
SA won 3 super titles

NZ won 10 TriNats
SA won 3 TriNats

NZ won 2 RC/4nats
SA won ZERO RC/4nats

NZ won 11 7s world series titles
SA won 1 7s world series titles

NZ won 2 7s RWC
SA won ZERO 7s RWC


ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:39
#15
23 Nov 2013, 16:39#15
  "Truth is never easy to swallow"

South Africa won 2 World Cups
New Zealand won 1 World Cup

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 16:50
#16
23 Nov 2013, 16:50#16
 "Truth is never easy to swallow"

NZ won 2 RWC
SA won 2 RWC

NZ won 12 super titles
SA won 3 super titles

NZ won 10 TriNats
SA won 3 TriNats

NZ won 2 RC/4nats
SA won ZERO RC/4nats

NZ won 11 7s world series titles
SA won 1 7s world series titles

NZ won 2 7s RWC
SA won ZERO 7s RWC

PO
polyboyClub Pro601 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:07
#17
23 Nov 2013, 17:07#17
Clevermike one thing about your posts that I disagree with at times is the retro analyzing of games or teams and then extrapolating them to possible future outcomes. Rugby is a dynamic game hence there are fluxs and ebbs, no team or player (well maybe Keiran Read) not even the AB's play at a consistent high level, there are factors like field advantage, team tactics or dynamics , travel, player fatigue (physical or psychological), the physical pitch, weather conditions etc, that affect a game and its outcome, therefore trying to predict the future by looking at the past is pointless if you can't control the extrapolating factors. You may get a general idea, but the point is that the better a team adapts during a game the better the outcome.  The Boks I feel at the moment are in good hands, there are some area like the selection of aging European players that is confusing, and I had a laugh because didn't you lambast the AB's as having an aging squad a year or so ago that was going to be the losing for them.  Anyway Clevermike just my take.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:17
#18
23 Nov 2013, 17:17#18
 Is sum stew retarded ? cant count ? just a dumbarse ? or a beanhead graduate from the school of fact refutation and fact avoidance ?
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:21
#19
23 Nov 2013, 17:21#19
 Oh Wardad, don't be so pedantic. I can count very well thankyou. But I delight in teasing the Kiwis about their rather questionable World Cup 'win' in 2011. Very questionable, in fact down right rotten. Not a good image for the game at all.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:25
#20
23 Nov 2013, 17:25#20
New Zealand have only ever won the Worldcup at home. 
South Africa would have won in 2011 if Meyer had been given the coaching job in 2008, instead we got PDV. 
Under PDV is was clear that their was no game plan other than kick and chase, which basically is no game plan.
Even still in Graeme Henrys Autobiography the All Blacks were scared to play the Boks in the Semis, and celebrated when they heard the result of one of the crappest display of refereeing .
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:33
#21
23 Nov 2013, 17:33#21
 Whether or not the Boks would have won in the final is debatable, but they were certainly the form team of the tournament. The real issue however is the final itself as that game actually happened. When McCaw said that New Zealand would have beaten France by 30+ points in a fair game, well, I lost all respect for him and New Zealand rugby as a whole. France are the rightful World Championships. I heard all kind of nonsense, such as, "New Zealand probably deserve it because they won such and such games". Moral relativism at it's finest. It was a final, France dominated, the ref took the game from them in the most disgusting fashion. Definitely corruption in the sport, and it was as clear as day in that World Cup. After the Boks were robbed, Australia were robbed(v Ireland) I thought I'd never see another ref display like that again. The French were robbed far worse, but not more than the sport itself. It's sad to see so many Kiwis demanding respect yet their side has been abominable. The All Blacks and New Zealanders of old never needed to demand respect, they had it by pure virtue of their quality as people and players. How times have changed.
PO
polyboyClub Pro601 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:40
#22
23 Nov 2013, 17:40#22
Hmm Sharkbok haven't read Henry's autobiography but now will have too.  So it said in the book "the AB's were scared to play the Boks".  You would think that the Boks had a psychological advantage over the AB's but the reality is it is the reverse the results over the last 20 years support this. Its pointless playing the "would've, should've" game the only reality is they didn't win.  I will say though if the AB's had the Boks in the semi the Boks would've lost.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:54
#23
23 Nov 2013, 17:54#23
@sharkbok,

"Even still in Graeme Henrys Autobiography the All Blacks were scared to play the Boks in the Semis,"
what page can i find proof of this comment, or is this like ur boks scored more trys then the All Blacks in the 2013 RC/4nats comments which was like many of ur comments false???

Boks had lost 4 of their last 5 tests agaisnt the All Blacks and that one win was against a team with the bulk of its stars not playing cos of the RWC.

scared of the Boks??? stop talking rubbish, whats there to be scared of, look at the All Black record vs Boks in NZ and swallow the hard truth.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Nov 2013, 17:56
#24
23 Nov 2013, 17:56#24

@sun tzu,
Boks were the form team of the 2011 RWC my ass. All Blacks schooled everyone bar the french in the final.
and had the Boks come to eden park, a place where they havent won since 1937 in a country they have only beaten the All Blacks 3 times in the entire professional era, perrrlease, we would have shit all over the Boks like we have since the RWC.

joubert gave the french a hit load leeway in the final, but u wont hear sweet F all about it, cos were not saffas, we dont make a living by blaming the ref for all our woes like u boohoo locals do.

i like how the All Blacks success has given so many so much pain, it makes me LMAO as i watch them eat it while i celebrate the greatest rugby team the universe has ever seen, :o)

am i surprised to see not a peep about the 2007 RWC???? no of course not, cos then u would be in the minority if single digit figures when it comes to unbiased saffas.
but for those who arent so single minded, take a look at some of the BS calls in the 2007 qauter final match, and im not talking about the infamous forward pass either.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Nov 2013, 19:29
#25
23 Nov 2013, 19:29#25
 Just the usual rubbish about the ABS win in 2011 ,just pure jealousy from the usual people who discover how much they love other teams who play the ABS ,care to explain why ? If Trinh Duc had of kicked straight no body would say boo about reffing ,especially those who ignore any one elses infractions .Tiresome ungracious rubbish to say the least For those who dont get it here we go yet again 1-NZ beat France TWICE 2- France were very lucky to get out of pool play 3- Wales were the team ripped off !4-NZ Most points for least points against unbeaten in pool play again5-NZ won fair and square as evidenced by the score board which all you saffas  reckon is the only thing that counts when its your mob !6-France would have been the most undeserving RWC winners of all time so justice prevailed .7- Eyegouging little French prick got away with their usual grubbiness 8- Strange how france refuse to take drug testing post game innit ?9- ABS RWC Champs #1 IRB team still ! 
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