CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Apr 2014, 21:01#2
Saffex
Mozart will never believe anything negative about De Jongh. He had pathetic defense issues last year for the whole of Super 15 - with a missed tackle ratio of more than 23% This year he was no better and the difference is that he stands looking while players run past him - making minimum or even no attempt to tackle.
What upsets me more is his tendency to hang onto balls with overlaps on the outside of him. It happened twice on Saturday - showing he is clueless when it comes to thinking rugby.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Apr 2014, 21:06#3
Allende is doing well on the wing but for the sake of the team put De Jongh on the wing and Allende at centre. De Jongh is also a very poor passer of the ball - an essential requirement for a centre.
Devon looked worth another opportunity his was a good debut - very elusive ruinner and fair turn of speed . Van Wyk is it is also back so maybe De Jongh on the bench.
Allistair loves his small backs - it's a pyscholoical problem with him
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Apr 2014, 21:22#4
de Jongh is a liability at centre
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Apr 2014, 00:29#6
Dr Moz De Jongh did make a pass as you say and i almost fell of my chair. His passing has been absolutely shocking throughout his career. His tackles are powderpuff as well.
Young Jan will still make it. JJ to wing. Jordaan and Benjamin have looked good this season. So has Sadie who has a good head on his shoulders.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Apr 2014, 00:30#7
Watermeyer is another promising looking center.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 00:34#8
Mozart
What utter rubbish. De Jongh was in a position to at least attempt tackles, The one he actually touched the shirt of the Cheetah player - the second one he was just hopelessly inadequate.
I watched the game again today and was struck by how poor De Jongh's actual tackles were. Whenever he did make tackles the Cheetah player just stood up in the tackle and off-loaded the ball, Although the other tackles was not as weak as that one - there was not a tackle he made without the players being tackled were able to off0load the balls. In a few cases they went forward despite De Jongh's tackles and easily placed the ball for further recovery.
When he did attempt tackles they were very weak and of poor quality - so I have to agree with Saffex about his present tackling ability .
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 01:32#9
Truth to tell....the second try was just a great line by Benjamin, de Jongh never had a chance. The first try came about because Brussouw gassed Fourie through the outside gap....let's stick to the facts.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 01:54#10
De Jongh is at present so weak in tackling that it is not surprising he did not even attempt tackles in both cases - misses would have made his stats look worse.
29 Apr 2014, 02:27#11
"The first try came about because Brussouw gassed Fourie through the outside gap"
Beeno you might want to read that.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 02:32#12
Duh...... a miss would make his stats look worse. You don't say sunshine. But chew on this....since de Jongh returned he has made 32 out of 37 tackles for a success rate of 86%. Your hero De Allende made 15 of 19 for a success rate of 79 %. Just another inconvenient fact.
29 Apr 2014, 02:59#13
Moz, those stats are clearly bullshit as De Allende has played twice the amount of games (Figure of speech) than De Jong, so theres little to no chance that he's has made more tackles than De Allende. Nevermind more than double the tackles.
NUnukefreekiwi
Club Pro441 posts
NUnukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
29 Apr 2014, 03:45#14
"Moz, those stats are clearly bullshit as De Allende has played twice the amount of games (Figure of speech) than De Jong"
Yup, De Allende has played in 9 games (720 minutes) compared with De Jong's 5 games (339 mins). Thats well over twice as much time on the field for De Allende over De Jong. Your "Figure of speech" remark was unnecessary because you're initial comment was true.
De Allende has made 58 successful tackles, 13 misses for an overall success rate of 82% (from 71 attempts) De Yong has made 33 successful tackles, missed 6 for an 85% success rate (from 39 attempts).
AJArthur John
Pro1,748 posts
AJArthur JohnPro1,748 posts
29 Apr 2014, 04:31#15
Nukie, De Jong is a fair player but no where near international class.
But with the new rules about to kick in for SA Rugby quotas you might be able to see your hero take the field in NZ.
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
29 Apr 2014, 04:38#16
Dejong has made some good breaks since returning for the Stormers, one of the few backs to have any effect on attack.
It seems more logical to try the bigger Delande at outside centre and dejong on the wing. Delande has been the most consistent backline player so far, and he does have an offload in the tackle
NUnukefreekiwi
Club Pro441 posts
NUnukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
29 Apr 2014, 05:24#17
AJ, you seem to have a comprehension problem. I don't recall where I ever passed judgement on De Jongs abilities let alone claimed him as my hero. I thought i was fleshing out the challenge Shezza had made, with regards to Mozs spurious statistical interpretations, by providing more illuminating data. If my interpretation (if one were ever offered) of the data favoured any player it certainly wasn't De Jong.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 06:46#18
Since de Jongh's return.....could I possibly be clearer? I'm comparing de Jongh and De Allende in the same matches, against the same opposition ....under the same playing conditions. In other words I'm trying to conduct a controlled experiment.
Nuke you guys in NZ seem to be quantitatively challenged....Nukefree, mathsfree, statsfree....hahaha, what a dolt.
NUnukefreekiwi
Club Pro441 posts
NUnukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
29 Apr 2014, 07:22#19
Errm, apparently
.....since de Jongh returned he has made 32 out of 37 tackles for a success rate of 86%. Your hero De Allende made 15 of 19 for a success rate of 79 %
is Mozs befuddled and confused (but brave nonetheless) attempt to articulate the following....
Since de Jongh's return.....could I possibly be clearer? I'm comparing de Jongh and De Allende in the same matches, against the same opposition ....under the same playing conditions. In other words I'm trying to conduct a controlled experiment.
Oh dear! In mozzieland these remarks may be synonymous but to the rest of the English speaking world it is illegible gibberish.
29 Apr 2014, 07:30#20
Interesting stats. Either way you look at the stat range de Jongh's tackling completion compare favorably and he has brought explosiveness on attack that wasn't there apart from Aplon.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 07:48#21
Mozart
As per normal you are going for stats which you deem as supporting your case. How many times did players just run past De Jongh without him even attempting tackles. In the past two games it happened at least four times. And the commentat ors during matches mentioned that a couple of times.
You go on and on about the fact that Engelbrecht's tackle on Ashley-Cooper was ineffective and allowed off-loading of the ball - yet in the case of De Jongh's tackles the players routinely off-loaded balls in tackle situations, Nothing about that.
Sad to say you are misrepresenting issues about tackle again - De Jongh's Treeby tackle attempts are not counted as missed tackles and those were in evidence a number of times on Saturday, when he was just pushed aside by ball carrying players.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 07:51#22
What part of the "same matches" is confusing you Statsfree? I'm truly pleased you fellas don't have nuclear....with chaps like you running a nuclear plant things could go badly awry.
Matey you are right....measure it over the same matches, or measure it over the whole season....de Jongh makes a higher percentage of his tackles than De Allende.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 07:53#23
Why dontcha put up your centre statistical ranking again Oom, I do enjoy a good work of fiction...hahaha.
NUnukefreekiwi
Club Pro441 posts
NUnukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
29 Apr 2014, 08:30#24
"Duh...... a miss would make his stats look worse. You don't say sunshine. But chew on this....since de Jongh returned he has made 32 out of 37 tackles for a success rate of 86%. Your hero De Allende made 15 of 19 for a success rate of 79 %. Just another inconvenient fact".
Where in the above comment did you ever say or allude to your data coming from the "same matches". Remember, this is the comment that begat my initial response. So please....enlighten me rather than resort to your default defence of ad hominem attacks whenever you are out manoeuvred. Lets see if I can coax a cogent response rather than another smarmy remark from your pedestrian playbook.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 08:44#25
Mozart
What statistical ranking of centers are you on about? I told you I used the Foxsport ratings and De Allende is the top center in Super 15. That is not a joke - what is is your bias in favour of the defense-deficient De Jongh and yo ur defense of Francois Steyn.
Incidentally De Allende is a center - not a wing where he is playing to accommodate DE Jongh. De Allende make tries and he has the best try-scoring record of any SA backline player in Super 15 - even playing for the sub-par Stormers. I know you do not rate scoring of tries as important - but I think you are alone in that.
You saw a few line breaks and scoring of one try by De Jongh as adequate - but how effective is his passing game? Non-existent. And his ball handovers in games are mounting rapidly - he is trying the impossible to beat Steyn in that component of the game.
29 Apr 2014, 15:57#26
Another thread not related to Steyn yet Mike talks of him. Pathetic!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 16:45#27
boklogic
Sorry I upset you about St Francois. I was trying to get under the shin of Mozart and the way he uses stats. He handpicked stats of players he thinks have done well - but even then he uses only selected part of the stats. In the case of St Francois I have been trying for months to get a statistical evaluation from him and he glatly refuse to to do. One wo nders why?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Apr 2014, 18:48#29
Wow Moz you really are a card.......de Jongh missed two one one one tackles both of which lead to tries.........blatant misses, you could not get more of a miss than those two pathetic attempts........the two attempts that followed on from the pathetic tackle attempt on Skosan the week before.......the guy is a liability at centre, that has been confirmed, he is not big enough for the role.......I said as much 3 years ago.
What utter rubbish that de Allende fell over his feet at centre, the only reason he has been moved to wing is to accommodate the useless de Jongh at centre.......another pathetic call by Coetzee. de Allende has been by some stretch the best Stormers back......he is much better than Jean at 12, but given what a liability de Jongh is at 13, it would make perfect sense to retain old man Jean at 12 and play de Allende at 13, but Coetzee is far too dim to make that obvious call. de Jongh should be playing Vodacom Cup rugby with the little guys.
Huge difference between JJ and de Jongh, JJ gets his man, not the deceitful 10 steps later, but all of 3 after covering Beale.......de Jongh on the otherhand misses simple one on ones......no decoy runners, no having to cover two attackers.......just a plain simple one on one.
de Jongh is the worst of all the SA S15 centres......he cant tackle, cant operate in traffic............useless
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 19:09#30
Wrong Sapp...de Jongh was out of position for both those tackles.....unlike JJ who got Barrett and AC slap in his chest and simply fell off the tackle in one case and in the other case acted as a speed bump. Pathetic tackling from the Bool.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Apr 2014, 19:13#31
Hahahahaha.........out of position.......man I am going to enjoy submitting the facts on this one.......they were pathetic one on one misses.
JJ brought AC down within seconds - FACT......de Jongh brought no-one down and tries were scored as a result - FACT
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Apr 2014, 20:11#32
Submit the facts.....go ahead Sappster. But let's have the pictures and not your usual bS. And I see you are back to JJ bringing down AC within seconds. In seconds a player can make 20 metres...in this case he made 12. You might want to refine your argument.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Apr 2014, 20:22#33
There is no way in hell he made 12m, that is just a plain lie......he might have made 3m at a stretch......he went down pretty much as soon as JJ hit him and thats a fact.
But this is not about JJ its about how useless de Jongh is defensively........my takes are never bullshit but just pure fact......look no further than 12m gained by AC, that is utter bullshit, not even close.
I dont have pictures, I have the game recorded, but there is Youtube footage of those pathetic misses which I will detail in full
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Apr 2014, 20:25#34
Mozart
De Jongh has a wonderful ability - he can go AWOL on a rugby field - he went AWOL in the Murrayfield and Twickenham tests in 2012 and now you claim he was AWOL on Saturday when the players ran past him to score tries.
On Saturday he was not AWOL - he was just hopeless in defense. There is a difference - you know.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 May 2014, 06:05#35
There you go Shezza....you post saying my stats are BS and in the next post Nousfree takes up your point. A decent fellow would apologize. Let's see if you can be big.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 May 2014, 07:17#36
Mozart
Lets look at the issue again. You went on about a chip kick of De Allende that did not work out and led to a Chefs try - writing about it endlessly and criticize him for it. yet when De Jongh made a chip kick in the Cheetahs game which was equally unsuccessful - which led to the try of Nyakane you kept dead silent about it.
You now start with an argument about the stats of a 13 and those of a 14 and then made comparisons. You are too stupid to realize that those are not comparable. You compare stats of a 13 with another 13 or a 14 with another 14. This is so stupid it is unbelievable. It is similar to comparing the the stats of a lock with those of a prop.
Look next time you use stats make sure the basis of the stats are comparable before you start using it.
Now back to De Jongh's stats - in the first three games De Jongh played this year there was statistically and otherwise no problem with his defense and the statistical position was very positive showing a missed tackle ratio of 7,69%. In the last two matches he played in the ratio was 46.15%. Over the series thus far De Jongh's missed tackle ratio thus far is 20,16%. The unsatisfactory trend maintained last year over the series is back and things look grimmer than last year if the last two games is anything to go by.
Now go back to your hole and stop showing yourself up as an utter fool on this site.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 May 2014, 08:15#37
There is just one small problem with your argument...tackling stats vary more by game than by position played. I normalized for games.....so they were measured on the same day against the same opposition, defending the same moves.
And sadly it's not possible to normalize for that and for position! Normalizing for both, we have only one data point.
But if you insist, that was the Tahs game! And De Allende made 5 out of 7 tackles....or 71.4 per cent.
Game, set and match.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 May 2014, 08:27#38
Mozart
BALLS = De Allende in that game played at wing - De Jongh at center. And then you look at one game and said that is the trend. With defensive stats they are only meaningful if you can determine competence or deficiency over a series of games.
You picked the Waratahs game - because De Jongh looked good in that game - why not pick the Cheetahs game where he was atrocious or the Highlanders game where he was worse than atrocious.
Come now - you are trying to proof something by using meaningless information and to protect your protegee De Jongh. His defensive stats last year was poor and that trend seems to be the same this year.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 May 2014, 08:42#40
So De allende played wing in that game? You really are one terminally stupid bugger aren't you? And belligerent as well, but the abiding impression is sheer, world class stupidity.
Game, set and match
