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FORUM / RUGBY /  I'm warming up to this Bok backline...

I'm warming up to this Bok backline...

Started by Mozart26 REPLIES331 VIEWS· 24 May 2014, 23:36
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2014, 23:36
#1
24 May 2014, 23:36#1

Willie, JP, de Allende, Jean, Habana, Frans, F du Preez.


We would have enormous physicality in the inside channels....the creativity of Willie and Habana....and the massive boot of Frans....and the touch of du Preez.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
24 May 2014, 23:59
#2
24 May 2014, 23:59#2

I agree moz. it all depends on how the quickly the the ball can be generated from the breakdowns. with these kind of players on the front foot with quick ball in space it might be a long day for any opposing team. that being said has any backline fired with meyer at the helm ?


the jury is still out but in terms of talent we that backline looks potent  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 May 2014, 00:29
#3
25 May 2014, 00:29#3
 Moz I suggested that Meyer would pick that backline - pease acknowle dge your source.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2014, 02:51
#4
25 May 2014, 02:51#4
 Mpzart
I can live with the other selections - but do not think that for a variety of reasons bot with the idea of Steyn at flyhalf.    He is no flyhalf and will create more problems in that badkline than anyone can imagine.  
A flyhalf needs not only be a massive boot - but he also need to know when to use that boot in out of hand kicking.  Fransie has one major problem - he tends to engage in aimless and inaccurate kicking that in to many cases results in handing over ball possession to the opposing sides.   Justin Marshall said there are no other player in Super 15 with a worse record in handing over possession to the opposing sides than Francois Steyn and that is proven by statistics as well.
The other problem is that his physicality has been more of problem than an asset at 10. He has the worst record in defense of any SA flyhalf playing regulaarly in Super 15 at flyhalf and has a serious speed deficiency as well,   He has the worst line break record as well.
My problem is that he has not shown anything in the line of sustainable attacking ability in that position as well.  I am not influenced about an extreme rarity loke happened once in all the games he played in this year - like the Sithole try against the Crusaders - one incident does not convince me at all that he has the qualities required from a flyhalf.
I think it would be a huge mistake to select him at flyhalf and he would not be  available to play in the RC in any event.  
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
25 May 2014, 06:27
#5
25 May 2014, 06:27#5
 Frans Steyn - "He is no flyhalf!"
...and then Mike wakes up and the Sharks are 3 from 4 with a clean sweep of the Kiwi's and first to beat Blues at home this season, 1st to be Crusaders in ChCh and should have beaten the Brumbies and all this with "no flyhalf!"
Ha ha give it up Mike..You lose!!
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
25 May 2014, 08:34
#6
25 May 2014, 08:34#6
 Here is the link to the espnscrum.com matchpack Mikey:http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2014/rugby/match/201417.html

Please see where Frans Steyn makes 12 tackles missing only one and where Willem Alberts makes a team leading 19 tackles missing a big fat 0 of them!
Also of note was that between our locks, they made 27 tackles with 0 missed!
Jordaan again was huge on defence. Cutting Nonu down all night. 9 tackles/1 miss on the night..How this man is not chosen for the Boks is beyond me!
In a game where the Bulls dominated, JJ was again a non-entity on attack. He made all 15 of his attempted tackles but he only made a really pathetic 2 metres run all night with ball in hand. Dave will say he had no opportunities but how when Serfontein and Potgieter both ran for 37 metres? JJ is not doing enough to involve himself on attack but then we already knew that!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2014, 11:01
#7
25 May 2014, 11:01#7
 boklpgic
I am normally not interested in the stats of one match - I look at stats over a series of games and even those have to show a tendency in player performances.   I have worked our Steyn's tackling stats over the series - both in respect of his playing at center and in respect of flyhalf and it does not make for nice reading.   Despite his good record in his last game it shows that he is really defective in that regard and that he on average miss more than 20% of all attempted tackles.   However, that is not Steyn's main problem - it is his serious deficiency in ball possession handovers and his high number of penalties given away that bothers me much more.
Insofar as Engelbrecht is concerned - I seriously believe that he is not an outside center.  He cannot read the game properly and runs straight at the first defender and gets tackled easily.   That - plus deficiency in off-lading balls - makes him not an attacking player at all.   A good center creates space for himself and players outside of him to enhance attacking play.  His usage of space created by players inside of him is non-existent.   That accounts for his low distance covering in carrying balls. 
I always said that Jordaan is an excellent center - be it either at 12 or 13.  People moan about his size - but he has over the past two years been the center that has the best tackling record in Super 15.   His handling of Nonu on Friday was typical - it was not the tackling stats that makes him good - it was the way in which he handled Nonu that impressed me.  Nonu lost ball possession twice when tackled by Jordaan.  Aside from that Jordaan is a slippery customer as is evident by the play preceding Cooper try against the Crusaders.   That coupled to his speed - makes him a very good player.   If he was contracted by the Bulls - Engelbrecht will not be playing at center for them. 
Mozart wanted to flip when I wrote that De Allende has developed as our best center this year.   He is still only 22 - but he has the best record as inside center in Super 15.   They talk about Serfontein and De Villiers - but De Allende beats them both.  Over the series this guy has been instrumental in creating more tries than any other center in South Africa.  The reason is his abi lity to make space for others and his off-loading of balls.   I do not see De Villiers lasting much longer - he has become very injury-prone - a result typical in players reaching their retirement age.   
Incidentally I would love to see a center combination of De Allende and Jordaan - that would be an extremely good combination - especially on attack.
As to the lock situation there are more and more younger locks coming through and I must say that we have no problem in that position at all.  Just think of the following youngsters:-
Stephan Lewies, Etienne Oosthuizen, Michael Rhodes, Willemse, Jacques du Plessis, Ruan Botha.   
All the above are very big and mobile as well.   They are still learning their trade - but thy are already better than anything New Zealand and Australia can offer.   That is why I have problems in people always crying out for Matfield and Bakkies Botha.  They are past tense and we do not really need them anymore.   
Incidentally I hope you will be able to go and watch the SA Under 20 games in the WC.  There are some really great players in their team.   The one guy that was not in the original announced team is Duhan van der Merwe - the player at wing who will be written books about in future.  He is only 18 years of age and is already special - so much so that he is on a SARU contract already.  I think that he is going to be sneaked into the squad in any event - he played in the three games against the Argentinians and scored 4 tries in the three matches played.  The other frightening players for the opposition will be -
Props  -   Du Toit. LouwHooker -  MarxLock   - Nicholaas Janse van Rensburg, Jakkals SchickerlingLoosies - Davis and a string of othersFlyhalf  -  PollardCenters - Esterhuizen and a string of othersWing -  GreefFull back - Jesse Kriel
How these guys can be as big as they are at 18 and 19 beats me hollow.   Not only big - they have good ball skills and speed as well.   Unlike last year in the same competition - this year the team will be much stronger and the preparations have been much better.                               
                    
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
25 May 2014, 12:25
#8
25 May 2014, 12:25#8
 Yep Mike it starts here on Monday 2 June which is a public holiday. I will be at all the Boks games here. Cant wait for Friday 6 June. Its a double header in Albany. England v Aus and SA v NZL. Gona be a cracking night of rugby.
Coming back to the Boks. We are extremely well served at lock at the moment. One player you didnt mention above and maybe because he is injured now is PSDT. I must be honest, I have not watched any of Victor Matfield this year but its frightening to think that we have only 2 spots to fill as starting Locks and 1 will be taken up by Victor. So we really have Etzebeth, PSDT, Lewies, Flip and a little further out Willemse going for 1 jersey. Lets also not forget Bresler who is the starting lock at the Sharks when fit. I reckon Lewies has done enough to keep the 5 jersey even upon Bresler's return but we will have to wait and see as Bresler is also a damn fine player.Etzebeth is a definite at 4 and I reckon Matfield will partner him if all players are fit that is!
Look, if Victor is still winning games and making the lineouts his own then no issue but that is a lot of future quality we have to overlook to accommodate him . Most will be lost to overseas opportunities unfortunately!
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
25 May 2014, 12:28
#9
25 May 2014, 12:28#9
Add >  Beast, Bissie, Jannie, Vic, Bruno, Brussow, Schalk & Vermeulen to Mozart's backline .
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
25 May 2014, 12:36
#10
25 May 2014, 12:36#10
 and don't forget..........Jantjies.
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
25 May 2014, 15:36
#11
25 May 2014, 15:36#11
 Jantjies SA answer to a question no one asked 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2014, 15:57
#12
25 May 2014, 15:57#12
3ku1
The question to be asked about Earl Silky Hands Jantjies is - should he be retained at Super 15 level - or send to play rugby at Vodacom Cup or club level.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2014, 20:39
#13
25 May 2014, 20:39#13
 Yep....I like Blob's pack. I might retain Louw vs Brussouw though. Heinrich is a warrior, but he battled in the RWC QF against the bigger Pocock. And let's not forget Louw's superb pass that sprung Habana at Ellis Park.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2014, 20:56
#14
25 May 2014, 20:56#14
 With Mozart's backline and blokbok's pack I am looking forward to a season of -
*  donation of plenty penalties to the opposing sides;*  a longer bench to cater for the number of yellow cards issued; and*  a thank you note from the opposition captains for all the ball handovers to his team and for the number of missed tackles in the game he captained.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2014, 03:54
#15
26 May 2014, 03:54#15

It's a sickness Oom your obsession with Frans.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2014, 05:12
#16
26 May 2014, 05:12#16
 Mozart
The sickness is mutual - you are obsessed with Steyn as well,.   The only difference is my obsession is supported by facts - yours is based on illusion and fiction dreamed up by you.      


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2014, 07:39
#17
26 May 2014, 07:39#17
No I don't drag Fransie into every one of my posts. Nor do I expect every other poster to share my opinion...stop being a bore.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
26 May 2014, 08:54
#18
26 May 2014, 08:54#18
 Oumaaik, we'll probably start with two Steyns in the backline .... my guess anyway .
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2014, 12:57
#19
26 May 2014, 12:57#19
 Blokbok
It would be a sad day for SA Rugby if we have the two Steybns in the backline since -
*   Morne Steyn had very little rugby over the past six months - he was effectively sidelined by Stade Francais because of his one-dimensional game and unimaginitve displays; and 
*   Francois Steyn was the worst-performing no 12 center of all the no 12's that represented the various franchises in SA in Super 15 this year - with no line breaks in the games he played in that position. no tries scored and a really horrible tackle record and the worst record in ball possession losses and penalty donation of any no 12 in Super 15 (all teams) .
If Meyer does that he would be looking for serious trouble in the upcoming test series- a repeat of the lamentable performances of the Springboks in 2012 - when we came third in the RC and only beat Australia after both were replaced and neither was involved in the EOYT - where we were more successful than expected.
You cannot put two donkeys together with race horses in the rest of the positions and hope that you can win in a team race against other teams consisting only of race horses.   
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
26 May 2014, 12:57
#20
26 May 2014, 12:57#20
 Huge improvement re you avatar Mike. But I predicted Meyer would choose this backline some time ago and I think barring injury we will see it in action. Bring back the offensive tackle. These guys should be able to tackle and knock the oppostion backwards. In time they wont want to run - will become nervy etc!
I could have the SPCA after me - cruelty to dumb kiwis! Bwahhahahahahaha
Bobbok are you trying to make ou maaaikie miserable!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2014, 13:00
#21
26 May 2014, 13:00#21
 Beeno
I am not miserable in any way - but SA will be miserable if you make a decision that will destroy backline play. like the Steyns did very effectively in 2012.    
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
26 May 2014, 14:02
#22
26 May 2014, 14:02#22
Mike I note your concerns re Frans and some are warranted but not yet conclusive. I also suggested a centre combo of Allende and Jordaan. 
Great to hear superb talent coming through at under 20 level and I trust we pummel the wee  wee abs !! They probaly have huge ref palns to ensure a juniour world cup home win ala bryce lawrence. But hopefully we will be be more than twenty points better than them and thereby take there out of the equation.
All oaks calling for wee matfields (kg) in the Boks are assigned to the loonie bin forthwith. We have seen years of us giving away tight forward authortity by playing this con artist. Wake up oaks  you re living a delusion. Rememeber the imortal words of the long suffering Bakkies - victor doesnt always play in the backline- says it all - bwahahahahahahahahahaha that oaks could be fooled by thsi show pony for so long is amazing. The dummy was bought hook line and sinker! 
Victor do us a big favour and go away.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
26 May 2014, 14:38
#23
26 May 2014, 14:38#23
The best Bok backline by some distance would be:
15. Willie 14. JP 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. de Allende 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard - with de Klerk, Frans and Taute on the bench
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2014, 14:41
#24
26 May 2014, 14:41#24
 Beeno
What further proof do you want about Francois Steyn?  He failed in both attack and defending play in all the Super 15 games he played at center - what else is required?
I do not think that we will ever see a combination of De Allende and Jordaan as our center pairing.  First of all they are not Meyer's type of players.  He looks at bulk first, Blue Bull players second and competence and performance come a distant 3rd in his selection policy.        
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
26 May 2014, 14:47
#25
26 May 2014, 14:47#25
 Chickenshit, JJ only ran with the ball once you ignorant prick.......he only got the ball 3 times, passing it twice - get you facts straight you ignorant wanker. How those defensive stats though 15 - 0 so much for JJ being a poor defender........man oh man, JJ is making you lot look like a bunch of clowns each week
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 May 2014, 15:06
#26
26 May 2014, 15:06#26
 Saffex
Sad to say - but Engelbrecht is seriously deficient in attacking play.  He plays like a wing and not a center and that is a fact.  It really is unfortunate in his case that the Bulls tried to panel-beat him from a wing to a center - where they in fact gives him no chance to perform.  If JJ moved to the Cheetahs - they may have succeeded to mold him into a center - with the Bulls he has no chance of that.
Taking into account his performances as an attacking player in all Super 15 games this year one comes up with a real void in performance - in fact compared to other outside centers his performances were really mediocre.
His defense improved - but whether he can handle a player - like Jordaan handled Nonu on Saturday is still unclear.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 May 2014, 17:49
#27
26 May 2014, 17:49#27
JJ has perfected the handbag tackle. He jumps onto the opponents arm and goes along for a nice ride. Speight gave him several lifts on Saturday.
— END OF THREAD —

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