I surmise that most of you have got Ol' Maaikie wrong.

I think you do...Ol' Maaikie is basically a well meaning guy who loves to please those he likes and also has a compassion for the poor and underpriviledged people of the world.

He has proved that. He is actually a hospitable fellow and was kind enough to invite me and my wife to spend a few days at his house in Riversdale when we went on holiday...we did'nt do this as our original plans to travel to Hermanus in the Cape were changed when we decided to extend our stay in the Eastern Cape at Rhodes and Barkly East with farming friends.

Mikey too has interests apart from rugby in history, especially Russian history and SA history, loves classical music and the Royal family which I find very stimulating.

He does know his rugby too but in my opinion is too unbalanced there...he has extreme views on aspects of play...in some cases right but others extremely overboard...he has a fixation about certain players and it's been repeated enough so it's not necessary to name them. I don't think he's a liar or dishonest but takes things to extremes and attacks what others say to absolute extremes...he is a fanatic which is bad because fanatics often lose reality.

He is very human and has foibles like all of us but should be humble and admit when he is wrong...indeed we all are at times...it is not important to be right all the time...most of us are not.

WE should enjoy rugby not get stressed out about it.

Nasty vendettas should stop...nobody would be more pleased than me if Mike and Moz made peace and could voice their differences without ugliness and malice.

Selah!

I don't think he's a liar or dishonest

Then you haven't been paying attention.

I don't know the personal life of Clever Mike, but I can say what I have observed. He definitely doesn't know rugby well at all, not even the most fundamental aspects of the game. That's fine. There are many ways to enjoy the game. Slandering people is generally in poor taste. When one loses a debate or exposed as lying, to then weave in a lie to attack other members personally is not good. He has been very selective of when to exhibit concern or compassion for another person on here, and it's been when that person is compliant with what he deems to be correct thought. These are traits that can be found in many domestic abuse cases. Is Clever Mike of that extreme? I doubt it. However, it's there. He is outlandishly dishonest and has no apparent sense of moral conviction in knowing where to draw the line. I challenge you to find one instance of me abusing him verbally. He has on the other hand called me a c*nt, a f*cker, worthless, someone who needs to be gotten rid of (murdered) amongst many other things. I have been extremely patient with him, and responded very mildly at every turn. He expressed alarm at a supposed attempt to drive him off the forum, but clearly has no qualms about doing the same to anyone who doesn't fit in with his accepted ideas. I have yet to see anyone who treats Clever Mike the way he treats others. I don't mind the disagreements, but the personal attacks are becoming a real bore. He is clearly a very emotional person, and if he is to exhibit the qualities you saw when visiting him, he needs to learn to deal with them much better. He has shown a very dark side to himself at the very sight of even perceived disagreement. I personally would just like to talk rugby. It's what I have been straining to spark here and was the very reason why I signed up (there were many complaints of boredom). 

The trouble is on this forum, very few listen to what the other is saying...Raymond Ackermann SA's greatest entrepreneur and founder and chairman of Pick 'n Pay once said/and wrote if you  put your ears/head close enough to the ground you will hear grasshoppers jump!

On this forum more often than not members miss the context and message or either are too self absorbed with their point of view to hear the other and yes that's Mike's problem but we are all guilty at times so don't be hypocrites...just remember that a soft answer turneth away wrath.

It's always the best way...winning an argument which nobody does here is not, neither is it the manly or tough way...turning the other cheek is. We only change our ways when we sit alone and think and are honest and strong enough to change...it takes courage to change.

Mike certainly is not innocent but neither are his accusers...whether the one accuser is less guilty than the other is far from the point...but that's the issue with most of us.

Rather bury your differences and stew in your own juice and forgive that's the best way, believe me...life's too short and we are all accountable...move on.

I have never been guilty of preventing a person from expressing their opinion. I ask a lot of questions to encourage a response. Apparently those questions are stupid and worthless and I should shut up because I'm a BSer. I do agree with your general message, your points are actually correct. That said, i f Clever Mike were to stop the personal attacks he would bring much less heat on himself. Hopefully the RC will bring an end to some of the more laborious squabbling. As it really is very boring. 

Case closed hopefully and we can bury this and move on but I believe sincerely that both parties were to blame...yeah to a lesser or greater degree but it was very nasty and bloody boring to most of us.

Yes poor ou maaaaikie has been getting a horrible deal from all you nasty types. Please mend your ways and try to be reasonable. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Anybody who thinks oaks come here to talk rugby are possibly quite wrong!

The sad little Clever Mike narrative only encourages him to be this way. He isn't held to any standard. What makes him so special? The fact that he 'aw shucks' Mike away from his keyboard? Hmm... 

Meh ou Makkie is fine ,I dont recall too many racist comments coming from him unlike the preachy little beant urd.

Beeno is tremendously tame. 

Cloudy, Aussies are like Chihuahuas: Big yap, little bite. Let's see if New Zealand can maintain their impressive record of scoring 40+ points against the Wallaroos in their first or second game (4 first, 2 second). I think Australia are going to cop a big one in the opener. 

Why has this post been started in the Rugby section?

Cloudy at least ya got to look down on all those wallaby fans eh ?

Cheers Cloudy !

Moz is that where the Quetzlcoatl First XV have their home ground ?

Seb

Thanks.  I generally have a good relationship with most members and think membership is important.  

What I cannot stand is the prejudiced approach of some members insofar as some rugby players are concerned.   They are under constant attack by some members - often enough based on misrepresentations.   My approach is to criticize players based on real problems they showed over time  - not the prejudiced nonsense so often written as fact on site.

When I do criticize players it is based on actual deficiencies in performance by players.  I do not claim - like some others - that I am a world expert as a rugby authority - that I leave to the members who claim they are.  I m accused of using stats to confirm some of my impressions.  I always said stats must be used over a series and not iro individual matches to determine tendencies in players insofar as performance is concerned.   It is therefore foolish to say stats are sheets of paper never to be used by anybody - especially since coaches do use it to determine tendencies and try to correct same.   

However, to claim that I only rely on stats is absolute crap.   I merely refer to the when prejudice results in false claims by members - also pointing out that they develop their own stats and then claim those as facts.   I would not rely on their descriptions - would rather believe ESPN than them.

In the end each of us have a different view on what happen during matches = we can all see what went wrong in games and what was done well.   I can see when something wrong was done by players and will be honest enough to say what I feel went wrong.   I virtually lose my temper when somebody makes mistake in matches.   I - for instance would say to people - that was a BS kick even before the recipients got the balls whenever it in fact happens during matches - especially if such kicks represent possession handovers and allows for counter-attacks .

In the end I should learn that - as they claim - we have world experts on rugby with their own agendas - but can only hope that prejudice is not their only norm to determine their likes and dislikes.   Sometimes I think the latter is indeed the case.    

.                 

Clever Mike, you are the most dishonest person I have ever met on a forum. You never admit when you are wrong. You aggressively attack anyone who disagrees and form a hierarchy of associations based on compliance. The anti-Folau narrative was used to draw attention away from your own error. You deliberately lied about me, and spread it around several threads, to trying and sully my name and bring together a mob. You call out members with derogatory threads, goading them. You seldom have good reasons for anything you say, and despite the extraordinary research and info others put forward, you take up an arrogant position where they are automatically sinister villains with an unreasonable agenda. Attacking the person because you cannot attack the argument is your default approach. You come across as a person who was never corrected by his parents growing up. Basic human interactive skills. The way you superimpose your own behaviour onto others is ridiculous. 

What a farce againdofdoos 

You are dishonest like Mozart and you make out anybody opposing your misrepresentations is  dishonest.   You write BS about Folau - under previous user names - and you claim the Stade Francais bench player is a top flyhalf.   Making claims like you did is dishonest also.

You are childish and a serious BSter to boot.   You claimed I only used stats  too evaluate performance.   However, you are using stats as well - but the real problem is that like the serial BSter Mozart the stats you use are selective and leave out pertinent issues pertaining to the Japan test disaster in 2015.   

Listen dimness I was all my career a Personnel Manager and in later years the lead negotiator on strings of programmes.   Provide lectures at International Conferences in England and Germany and gave presentations at dozens of SA conferences.   So where did you get your garbled misrepresentations you made about my personality from?   Like your player evaluations you have made a serious miscalculation on me purely  because  I was honest enough to differ from your rugby garbage.   .   

What a farce againdofdoos 

You are dishonest like Mozart and you make out anybody opposing your misrepresentations is  dishonest.   You write BS about Folau - under previous user names - and you claim the Stade Francais bench player is a top flyhalf.   Making claims like you did is dishonest also.

You are childish and a serious BSter to boot.   You claimed I only used stats  too evaluate performance.   However, you are using stats as well - but the real problem is that like the serial BSter Mozart the stats you use are selective and leave out pertinent issues pertaining to the Japan test disaster in 2015.   

Listen dimness I was all my career a Personnel Manager and in later years the lead negotiator on strings of programmes.   Provide lectures at International Conferences in England and Germany and gave presentations at dozens of SA conferences.   So where did you get your garbled misrepresentations you made about my personality from?   Like your player evaluations you have made a serious miscalculation on me purely  because  I was honest enough to differ from your rugby garbage.   .   

Moz did them Tigers pack down and rob you whilst you were on yer palanquin ?

Morné was not a top 10? Why did he play in the best attacking backline South Africa has had in Super rugby? How did those linebreaks he create become "detrimental to back line play"? He has the best try count of Bok 10s, has the 2nd highest points per test ratio, has a phenomenal tackle percentage over 80%, far surpassing players like Larkham and Carter. He was a key member of the best attacking Bok side of the past 10 years, racking up 47 tries in 12 tests. He is also the most highly decorated South African 10 of all time who holds super rugby, South African and world records. 

Now, tell me how him sitting on a bench (for a team he guided to a title), as you claim, erases the significance of all of the above. I really have to hear how you arrived at such a conclusion. I mean, who am I to argue against you. I don't have clever in my name, so I am no authority on cerebral things. You on the other hand, being more humble and knowledgeable than any of us must surely have a way out of this contradiction without embarrassing yourself. Surely. You did proclaim that he was the worst 10 in rugby history. 

& he wus born in Bellville

Himmel - this idiocy on Morne is BS.  Listen if he was s effective - why was he droppe three times by Meyer and turned out to be the Stade Francais bench-player.  m If he was so effective then why did Hansen said he was predictable an easy to deal with.   

Get real for a change dimness - there is no way Morne was an attacking flyhalf and the Springbok backline was dead in the period 2012 to date.    

Morné was first dropped because he was struggling with kick accuracy. His place kicking was misfiring. So Meyer selected Goosen, and that was even worse. 

In 2014, Meyer dropped Morné because he failed to find touch from a penalty. The outcry was too great for the emotional Meyer to resist. Pollard played well. I had no problem with this. 

Morné was never the incumbent again. So your magical third dropping never happened. 

I haven't been following his career the past few years, so I can't comment on that. I can speak of his exploits to guide that team to a title. I can also speak of his exploits for the Bulls and the Boks. Has he lessened as he aged in France? That's certainly possible. Has the coach made a bad decision? That's also possible. I don't know, but I am certainly not going to take you as an authority on the matter! You can't even be trusted with things I am aware of. You cling onto this alleged benching, and try to erase Morné's accomplishments in the process. Slandering the man and attempting to mislead others with what you very well know is a lie. This is where we come to a disagreement. If you don't like him, fine. If you don't want to praise his accomplishments, that's okay. You are not entitled to your own "facts" and bullying anyone else who sees through it. 

Morne was dropped 3 times..yes...but how many times was he not dropped? A hell of a lot more than three, and that is because he was effective at the time. So he lost form later in his career and was dropped, what exactly does that prove? Again, who would we have replaced him with anyway? Withe the exception of Pollard, who got his shot in the end, we had a bunch of nearly there 10's in SA during most of Morne's career. 

Amazing how threads go awol...this was about Maaikie not Morne...lol.

Reminds me of once posting a picture of Frans Steyn to tease Ol' Maaikie...Frans had a beard then and ol' Maaikie thought it was Bakkies Botha...too funny.

Seb have you read Jean Gionos "The man who planted trees " ?http://http://www.idph.net/conteudos/ebooks/the_man_who_planted_trees.pdf