Is Frans Steyn a 12 or a 15.

Fans hark back to RWC07, where a young Fransie stepped in successfuly for Jean....forgetting he nearly blew the final by badly missing Mathew Tait. Fortunately Danie just managed to get Cueto out into touch, in  the subsequent play.

But this is 5 years later. In the meantime Steyn has had a number of succesful outings for the Boks at fullback, most notably against the Lions. I can't think of performances at 12 that have had anything like that kind of authority.

Last year he ran 46 times for 102 metres....and thirty of thosemetres came from the charge down against the Bargies. That leaves him at way less than 2 metres a carry. And I can't recall him sparking anything for other players....in fact, except for that charge down try, he did very little.

The usual excuse for 2012 is, he was playing outside Morne. But Jean played outside Morne for 3 years and never had such woeful stats. Face it, the great talents have a way of compensating.....Steyn's performance is mostly down to Steyn.

Will he be better this year?  I hope so...he has all the physical talent to be a test 12, and Jean can only have a year or so left. But Fransie has always been plagued by slow decision making.....leading to all those charge downs. Does he see and react fast enough to be effective....opportunities at test level are fleeting.

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on him replacing Jean.....not being terrible, but not being a creative spark....and never really making the contribution he could have at 15.

With more space and time Steyn's huge boot and powerful runs are more effective than at 12.

Frans can play both but is needed at 12 for the Boks as Jean is done and dusted. He will also play 12 for the Sharks and Meyer wants him at 12. I think Frans himself has said he will only play 12.

He was by far our best 12 in 2012, despite playing under an injury cloud. Its a load of complete bullshit that his decision making is slow. Being charged down has plenty to do with the fact that a 12 is not often called upon to kick, at least with Frans we have that option, we never see Jean kicking because he can't.

Lets just hope Meyer sees sense and discards Jean and plays the physically imposing Frans at 12. He is the only player we have who could remotely mirror the SBW model. We need skill and physicality at 12, look no further than Frans.

What we will see this year is Frans at 12 and washed up Jean at 13 - we will once again struggle to make an impact out wide because Jean is so poor at 13 and Meyer will hopefully eventually see the light and get a young productive 13 playing off the creativity and physicality of Frans at 12.

The first time I saw Francois Steyn playing - it was at full back for the Sharks - he really was most impressive.  He followed that up with equally imprresive games at 15 - and it was no surprise that he was selected for th Springbok squad for the 2007 WC at a very young age.   After the injury to Jean De Villiers he was moved to center and played in that position for the rest of the WC.

Although adequate he was not a house  on fire in the 2007 WC Campaign.   His subsequent slection was again at full back - where he excelled and I always thought at the time he really was better at full back than at center.   When he started to play at center he did well enough to be highly rated in that position - although I must admit his performances in 2012 was questionable.   He definitely was not the top performer Saffex made him out to be.  

I think Steyn had some problems in 2012 - he was not in top physical form  and seemed all along to be hesitant in what he was doing.   There was also other slight deficiencies in evidence,   However, he seemed to be back on track as from a physical perspective and I think he would be knocked into more venturesome play at center.    

I do no think Steyn will ever be a contender for full back selection in 2013-  he would be playing at Center for the Sharks this coming Super Series - and in the unlikely event that he fails repeatedly in that position - there is no chance that the Sharks will move him to full back.   Since he has had no full back experinces since 2010 - there is no way that Meyer would select him at 15.

The situation is therefore of academic value only and is very unlikely that it would ever be  considered by Meyer.   Matter of fact is that if Meyer even thought about it - he would have asked the Sharks to do what the Stormers will do in 2013 - namely to use Taute at full back.  

Actually he started at fullback against Wales, in the RWC11. Right now the view is Taute is the answer at 15. I have my doubts. And I think Lambie is going to be our first choice 10 this year....that opens up 15.

Mozart

I am afraid you are barking up the wrong tree with Taute.   After two years  of top class rugby at full back - he was in 2011 amongst 5 players nominated as player of the year.   The Lions moving him to center and Meyer's selction there as well - caused a blemisgh to his career that should never have happened.

Taute really is a class full back and I believe your doubts are ill-founded.   Even in the second game for the Stormers - he really showd top class qualitis when he joined the backline in two cases of Stormers tries - onme scored by himself and the other by Jean de Villiers.   Both moves were intitated by De Allende - but Taute was crucial in both cases.

I will be disappointed if he ddoes not come through as a full back - I think he will.  To express doubts based on nothing is not really realisitc - now is it? 

The same could be said of Kirchner in many matches. I don't think Taute is a smart player....dumb players make mistakes. Like his failure to find touch when the Bok defence was totally out of position.

Mozart

One relieving kick mistake when the ball was passed to him in the abemce of the flyhalf and he is damned for  life.   I do believe that his move to center disorientated his whole rugby playing situation.   I also think that he was very raw when he made that kick in th Soweto test.   Once he concentrated playing at full back - and h had a couple of games there - he would be back to what he was in 2011,

Kirchner is really not a patch on him and never was - I once published the stats on them and Taute scored 39 more points in a sinilar number of games played at full back (109 against 70) on the same level  - that is on Super 15 and CC levels.

Well Mike you and Sapp are convinced Taute, Serfontein, Goosen, Jordaan, Coetzee, Kitshoff, Pieter Steph du Toit and Kolisi are all going to make the Bok team and be succesful.

I can't comment on Serfontein and I like Jordaan. Goosen is a talent, but is he really robust enough?

The rest have a lot to prove.

Mozart

You are really mixing things up here.  I have huge differences with Saffex aboiut some players you said I support   I never wrote anything about Kitshof and Kolisi being Springbok material.  I never supported Taute as a 13.

I believe that Goosen proved in Super 15 that he is a top contender - whilst Coetzee was the loosie of the year on Super 15 last year.   I do believe at 18 and 19 Goosen was put in a position very early and injuries probably stemmed from that - but I still think there is not anything else wrong in his make uo.

I do support Jordaan ahead of the other 13's in SA and that include De Villiers at 13.

I said all along that I believe players - experienced or otherwise -  should prove during this year in Super 15 that they are the best in their various positions and they should b selected on that basis.   That proviso is applicable to all players mentioned by you as well

However, I am not going to precede the situation by saying they would not make it based on solitary incidents.  I want to wirness sustained performance and continous deficiencies before I make up my mind on anything..

No point in arguing, the proof will be in the heat of battle. You just keep pushing a heavy youngster blend....that's failed us every time we gave our senior players a rest. I'll stick with experience and a very gradual succession process. That's the Woodward model.....the Jake model and the Henry model to cite the last 3 RWC winners.  I think Meyer will go my way, and be right.

Mozart

Statistics proved that there were more failures by so-caled experienced players in 2012 - than there were  failures amongst younger players.   I stick with my viewpoint.  All players - also the holy cows - must prove that they are the best in their positions.  If the best is a 20 year old - so be it.

To stick wityh experienced players if they under-perform is lunacy and if you analyse the matches we drew in or lost - it was mostly the experienced players that let us down.    A norm of selecting experienced players without regard to performance is fatally flawed

Statistics proved nothing of the sort. Mvovo, Jantjies, Taute, Greyling, Potgieter made mistake after mistake. Stop sucking it out of your thumb.

There are two models. The first one selects the best players based on perceived form. The second actually has a Springbok team which gets the benefit of the doubt. That team is changed slowly, and only when a new player proves he is superior.

You believe in the first model along with Sapp and Rudolph Straeuli. I believe in the second along with Henry, White and Woodward.

You cant prove it one way or another theoretically, but practice is strongly in my favour.

 Moz what about the Lancaster model? He's picked the best young players for each position and look how well England are doing they can only grow as a team and improve. Same can be done with the Boks. Now before you say he hasn't achieved anything and that a win against the All Blacks isn't anything get your head out of the sand and see the true growing potential that a young team with the best selections can have.

 France beat Oz and then lost to Italy. My opinion is NZ lost focus....and a few odd things happened like Barritt actually making a long break, when last have you seen that, let alone against the ABs. These aberrations occur, they don't mean much.

In a well managed national team with great depth, as in NZ or SA, we should never be selecting a swath of young players.

Mozart

You cherrypick some of the younger players as examples of players letting the Springboks down - players neither I nor virtually anyone else wanted in the team.   The new players you clearly don't want to mention are Etzebeth, Vermeulen, Kruger and Coetzee,  

The worst problem cases in the Springbok team was in fact Morne Steyn (missing 50% of the kicks at goal), Van der Linde (penalty after penalty in scrummaging), the useles Dr Jongh (which you supported to the hilt) and the totally out of form Hougaard and Francois Steyn (who was particularly bad in two of the five tests the latter played in).      Another player who you supported as an experienced player was below par Steenkamp against Scotland and barely average in the London test.  

No doubt the main matchloser was Morne Steyn.

I said repeatedly that you are wrong  in your support of non-performing experiened players - and that is the crux of the matter,   You then quoted that you go with White, Henry and Woodward.  None of them did not put up with non-performers and they made changes when necessary.   However, the coach that landed us in the problem scenario Meyer at present encounters is De Villiers - who between 2008 and 2011 made virtually no changes and  In terms of you philosophy - he really must be the top coach then,

I definitely do not want wholesale changes to the side.   However - unlike you -  I am not prepared to put up with rubbish performances game after game of players selected not because of their performance - but because they are experienced.   There are definitely players that needs to be forgotten about and new players brought in.   A particular case is De Villiers - who was better than the other centers - but really not a house on fire.   He is basically a short term selection - nothing more and will not last out after 2013.

Our main problem remains the backline - other than the wings and at flyhalf (where both Lambie and Goosen will be in the picture).   Most of the players I mentioned are in the critical in the full back and center positions.      

i agree with mozs comments about francois and the fullback position. he had a better impact for the Boks at 15 then he ever has at 12.
thats not to say hes not a good 12, just that at 15 he had more room to move and use that speed and size to his attacking advantge, plus he had that fed-ex boot of his that could clear them out of trouble in a big big way.

but as affex mentioned, the Boks do need a 12 urgently and with goosen/10 and lambie/15 in the equation, that is where he is better and more efficently suited.

time whiteheads injury at the sharks was huge blow IMO, for the sharks could have feilded a team similar to this one,,,
9 c mcleod, 10 p lambie, 11 l mvovo, 12 t whitehead, 13 p jordaan, 14 jp pieterson, 15 f steyn,,,
that would ahve been one mean backline.

I don't regard Vermeulen as a new player.  Kruger also at 26/27 was hardly an inexperienced player. Etzebeth was maybe the global find of the season.  Coetzee had to be replaced in the starting lineup to give us some clout at the breakdown, which Louw provided. He never succeeded as a ball carrier for the Boks and was more or less just a tackler. Does that cover it Mike.

Sasu you may very well be right getting to Steyn at 12 by process of elimination. But he has to be more effective than sub 2 metres a carry. I think there's at least a 50/50 chance Lambie may end up at 10 with Goosens injury proclivity. That would leave Steyn, Taute and Kirchner as possible 15s. My guess is Jean as our steadiest back of last season will get one more year at 12 and remain captain, at least through the end of the Rugby Championship..

Mozart

In essence we are arguing about semantics here and I can live with the selections you support.   However, I cannot see in the short term whether Steyn would come into contention as a full back - unless he does play in that position regularly in 2013 in Super 15.   

Unlike Sasue and Saffex I am not really a great Whitehead man and I would rather play Jordaan at 12 if forced to do so.  But that is also not really in the picture a present. 

Personally i recommend Frans Steyn to remain at Fullback due to the fact that Steyn is more useful in that area of the game in addition he wasn't up to standard at 12. Transitioning to an inside centre position after playing years at fullback completely ruined his form also his future outlook in his career which is being questionable. Making a transition to inside centre genuinely takes time and effort to see positive match results but the majority of the time i don't see that. I stated on some thread else one of the reasons why the boks don't play alot of attacking productive rugby is due to the problematic issue of inside centres crashballing ineffectively too much, that has also been the case with Frans Steyn.

The unique attributes Frans Steyn has that is well suited at fullback is his ability to do large kicks when calling for the mark in the 22m line, this can make significant difference as too how far we can start building momentum due to the great distance. The opportunities of drop kicking would increase at fullback, i miss the times when he use to drop kick from 60m and 50m, very well effective.
 

Lucid get a grip man. Frans was a 15 in his early days and is now a 12 end of. He was by far our best Bok 12 in 2012 and will be even better this year now that he is fit and injury free.

His strength at 12 is his skill and physicality - defences are so well structured these days at test level, that physically imposing oneself is a pre requisite. Frans is the closest thing we have to SBW - who set the standard for inside centre play, where he physically imposed himself and kept the attack alive with the offload.

Frans will never play 15 again and rightly so 

Saffex
I don't usually reply but in regards to this topic will. I've watched several of Frans Steyn's matches including his racing metro matches so i have a good understanding as too what he is capable of doing as well as which of his attributes is suited well in what position. I don't believe he is a bad inside centre but in some aspects he needs to improve on at centre which has been problematic in the backline in past. On many occasions Frans Steyn fails to reach the advantage line for the reason being he is not running on to the ball with enough speed, its too slow which causes the defenders to rush up faster. At these circumstances we can't afford to have a inside centre like that particularly at a international level. You stated ' Frans is the closest thing we have to SBW' Well i strongly disagree, Jaque Fourie is.

Whats the point of posting if you dont respond?

There is no space at test or top class rugby for an inside centre to run onto the ball at pace and it is also very dependant on where the flyhalf positions himself on attack. Frans runs onto the ball no slower or faster than any other international 12 out there.

I have seen plenty of Frans at Racing as well, where he was damn good.

Not sure how Fourie comes into the equation given he is a 13 and his hands were never a strength of his. Fourie is the kind of player who would be running off a SBW offload

Saffex

With due respect I have to agree with Lucid and Mozart in respect of Steyn insofar as his 2012 performnances were concerned.   The problem is he was crashballing all the time and because he was slow off the mark - it often enough happened behind the gain line.  I still could find no evidence that he was the best 12 in SA in 2012.   If he was it was not easy to find the evidence.   I am one of the people that saw a marked improvement in him last Friday and if he continues to play like he did - I would strongly support his inclusion in the team  

Whlst palying next to Lambie (and not Morne Steyn) should help him in his ball distributionwhich was really poor in 2012.   He for instance never did what SBW achieved - namely off-loading of balls in tackle situations.   The only thing he has in common with SBW is his size - he does have none of the ball-offloading abilities of SBW in evidence last year.   Anyway, If that type of thing recurs in the Sharks backline - there will be only one player to blame and that will be Steyn.  

Insofar as your defence statement goes - I want to say that yes  - defences are tight but there still is some space if the flyhalf stand flatter and is a better ball distributor.   That leaves the 12's with 4 or 5 meters to deal with and it is concequently necessary to get off the mark and try and reach higher speed than Steyn achieved last year.   On Friday he did just that and he did not run straight at the opposiition defender - but aimed to the gap betwen the 12 and 13 in his running.   That is in fact ideal and I wonder why it was absent totally  in 2012.

I always said that I support Francois Steyn - but his 2012 performancs gave a lot of people the jitters and his constant crashballing and occassional dribble kicks that went awry did not inspire confidence.   That is why I was so delighted by his performance last week - he managed to cut out virtually all his negatives - but the off- loading of balls in tackle situations as SBW does so effectively was still entirely absent.   That is bound to come right too.

There is other problem though - Francois Steyn use physoical strength as his only weapon - he is not a player that allows equally for strength and ball sence and skill.   That to an extent will always limit is efficiency at 12.   That is why I even at this stage I like  players such as Serfontein and De Allende.   I  think they are extremely good prospects - they both are physically strong -  but they have advanced levels of ball sense and skills as well.  

Neither ...

Steyn was captained and managed by a strong and globally respected leader back in the 07 WC.

The youngster was in awe of John Smit and the occasion in France brought the very best out of him.

In short … he punched way above his weight … he was fantastic.

Bringing out stats on how many carries he’s had and what distance each carry produced since 2007 leaves me with what I would think, an obvious question.

It’s all very nice running around like a moron with the ball in hand …. But what does he do with the ball when he has it?

Quality will always surpass quantity.

Sweet fanny blow all is what.

We saw how disappointing he was when selected as a Barbarian. He let his whole side down and embarrassed South Africa with his incompetence.  

Sadly, he will never realize that magic season again. It was a special year, a special occasion … but now it’s all part of history and we shouldn’t select him based on reputation.

He has never come close to matching his 2007 standard of play.

That is a fact as Mozart has so rightly pointed out.

Let’s just accept it and move on.

We have heaps of talent in this country to select from. We should expose this talent to test rugby as soon as possible and prepare them for what could be an unbelievable era in South African rugby.