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Is Jake White really that good?

Started by Just_win15 REPLIES479 VIEWS· 12 May 2014, 10:47
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 May 2014, 10:47
#1
12 May 2014, 10:47#1

It is no secret that Jake White wants back into the international coaching arena. The last time that he coached a national side, they went on to win the 2007 Rugby World Cup.

It’s been seven years since White last coached at the top level but in that time he has coached the ACT Brumbies close to a Super Rugby Championship, only falling in the final to the Chiefs. The Brumbies have won the title in the past but the years before White’s tenure they were floating in the lower part of the table.

Jake White’s legacy cannot really be argued. Ever since his days of coaching high school teams, he has made a success of each team that he has headed. But legacies are for the history books – what matters in rugby is what you can achieve now and in the future.

He did improve the Brumbies rugby and even this season, there is some residual White tactics in the Brumbies’ playbook. Peter de Villiers was also a benefactor of White’s residual coaching prowess, taking the Springboks to a British and Irish Lions Series victory and achieving a 100 per cent winning record over the All Blacks in 2009.

After that, de Villiers tried to change the way the Boks played and almost cost the team serious ranking positions.

Jake White almost has the Midas’ touch and can seemingly turn the tide in a team and take them to the top, and he has. But is he good enough for the modern game?

Arguably, New Zealand play a very modern game of rugby. All the teams in the New Zealand conference show the ability to adapt and strike from turnover and counter attack.

Most stats will show that tries are scored from fewer phases or set plays than continued phase work. New Zealand seem to highlight this fact by looking to counter attack as a first option.

I am not saying that phase play doesn’t work. Tries are scored from continuity and grinding the ball up the field, by the likelihood of a try being scored from lesser amount of phases is higher.

This is the modern approach to rugby. Again, look at the success of the New Zealand teams and the way in which they play.

Jake White’s coaching is very technical and tactical, which includes using the boot as a first option. There is nothing wrong with this tactic, but it has to be supported by good players and an accurate boot.

If this tactic fails, then plan B needs to be put in place – but judging from the recent Sharks’ performances, they have no Plan B.

To win games, generally, a team needs to score tries. Somehow this season, the Sharks are on top with scoring the second-least amount of tries.

I guess that you can look at the defensive effort of the team and claim that they haven’t allowed opposition teams to score either, although they have the worst tackle success rate in the competition.

They hold opposition to about 17 points a game, which is the league’s best.

The Stormers have done this in previous seasons, but haven’t been good enough to win the title.

When the Sharks played a New Zealand team, the Highlanders, they claimed to focus on defensive structures but still leaked four tries without scoring one.

The ability to attack with ball in hand isn’t a game plan that has been seen in the Sharks’ camp but this is the way forward to beat opposition.

Even though some teams have scored a good amount of tries and risk attacking runs, the teams that lack a defensive pattern have let through a lot of points themselves a la Cheetahs.

A balance of defensive patterns and the ability to attack needs to achieved for a successful team.

White has focused heavily on discipline and defence this season and the want and need to boot the ball away from the team’s own half. He hasn’t really coached an attacking or counter attacking approach and it is evident.

For the Sharks to begin winning the big games and beating Australasian opposition, an attacking format needs to be adapted.

Is Jake White good enough to adapt to this need for an attacking format? The current South African coach, Heyneke Meyer, has stated that rugby changes every six months, be it technical, rule enforced or tactical, so the need for a coach to change is also important.

So has White changed his approach to the game?

The answer is yes and no. He has emphasised his focus on defence but also de-emphasized the attacking ability of a team. He has changed his game plan, but is it good enough to become a championship team?

Time will tell on that one, but I don’t think that he is good enough anymore.

The game of rugby is now won with an array attacking portfolios and a strong, simple defensive line with the ability to scramble. The Chiefs, arguably the best team this year and defending champs, have a strong defensive percentage and equal highest amount of tries.

It is no coincidence that they are tipped to be in the finals. I know that the Sharks top the league, but the stats show a complete opposite of what is reality, but the Sharks haven’t played the Chiefs and they lost to the Brumbies, their closest rivals.

With the stats not really favouring the Sharks to make it past the play offs, I doubt that White will have an invitation to coach an international team in the South.

Maybe the north will knock on his door or Japan will offer a fat stack of cash, but with his tactics becoming seriously outdated and easily countered, I don’t think that he is good enough to coach the top five teams in the world at the moment.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 May 2014, 10:53
#2
12 May 2014, 10:53#2
 "Jake White’s coaching is very technical and tactical, which includes using the boot as a first option. There is nothing wrong with this tactic, but it has to be supported by good players and an accurate boot.

If this tactic fails, then plan B needs to be put in place – but judging from the recent Sharks’ performances, they have no Plan B."

Does this description sound familiar? Could be the Bulls (Bulls also rely more on the line out & rolling maul) as is the Sharks of course. Stormers cannot be assessed as they have so many injuries, Cheetahs are trying to play running rugby but look to scatterbrained  right now (they need to have more structure).

Boks still sound like this but they are developing a plan B - ability to produce a running game.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
12 May 2014, 11:20
#3
12 May 2014, 11:20#3
joke white is one of the most overrated coaches in the world.

his tactics embrace neagtive rugby, but to be fair to him, the win is really all that matter, so who cares if all he wants to do is kick the living crap out of the ball.
that boring snore fest of a game between the brumbies (white former team) and the sharks (whites current team), saw a kicking from hand display which averaged 1.09 kicks per minute.

the thing with white is though, he is prob SA best coach at the moment after meyer, which shows that the only thing worse then the saffa backs, is saffa coaches.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 May 2014, 11:37
#4
12 May 2014, 11:37#4
 I think that Jake does have a Plan B - but Plan B depends on the abilities of players to implement same.   He also has players that for the past two years showed no ability to implement Plan B. 
Plan B require ability by players -
*  to catch and pass balls and who can carry balls as well;*  who can protect and recover balls effectively in breakdown (tackle) situations;*  who can link up with backline players in attacking play;*  who can read games and vary play accordingly; and*  who have sufficient speed to fulfill their positive outcome of Plan B.
Looking at the Sharks team and their ability to score tries - the following player analysis could give an indication of present player abilities:-
Positivers
Beast, Bismarck. Lewies, Du Toit, Kankowski, Daniel, Reinach, Lambie, Jordaan, Mvovo, Pietersen and Ndungane
Negatives
JannieAlberts, Deysel, Steyn
Two key players are injured - Du Toit and Lambie.   Reinach was out for more than a month.   Daniel and Kankowski has clearly lost their ability to play the game they excelled in in the past.   Jordaan, Ndungane and Mvovo rarely see balls to play with from an attacking backline move perspective.
Jannie cannot form part of attacking play and tend to lose balls, Alberts never take part in ball protection and recovery and never pass balls - Deysel is a more active copy of Alberts -  and Steyn is poor in virtually all aspects of the passing game.  The latter does not know when to pass balls and his execution is poor and inaccurate.  His reading of the game is non-existent and he hoards balls which nullifies any potential backline performances.
One thing which can be said about White is that he protects his players from public criticism - but in return he expects dedication and good play from his protegees.   He hesitates when it comes to take public action against defective players and the result is a breakdown in Plan B implementation.
If the Sharks want to perform a better Plan B implementation - the return of Du Toit and Lambie are priorities, the playing of more versatile loosies are essential and the replacement of Steyn is an absolute priority.   The latter is destroying all potential backline plays and make implmentation of any Plan B impossible.   
         

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
12 May 2014, 12:03
#5
12 May 2014, 12:03#5
joke white plan A
territory game
- play the ball only when in the oppositions 22, by keeping them pinned with kicks kicks and more kicks and waiting for them to make errors

if this dosent work, go to plan K
the kicking game
- just kick the ball no matter what and only run it when there is no longer enough time to go win the match on the back of penalties and drop goals
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 May 2014, 12:09
#6
12 May 2014, 12:09#6
No, Joke White is not really that good at all.

He's a hugely overrated rugby coach and his entire reputation is based on one incredibly lucky RWC win where the vagaries of the draw meant that the Springboks didn't have to play a single match against any of New Zealand, Australia or hosts France and in effect, all we had to do to win that RWC was beat the hapless Poms twice at a neutral venue. Even then, Joke's naivete and inept coaching saw the Springboks come as close as they've ever come to losing to Fiji and Tonga.

Joke's arrival at the Sharks has seen them change their style from the positive, ball-retention strategy they played under John Plumtree to a sterile, boring and one-dimensional kicking game under Joke. It's hard to watch and I was sincere the other day when I said I'd rather see the Sharks lose playing their traditional brand of rugby than see them win kicking the ball every time they get it.

I wish Joke White and Frans Steyn would both piss off to whatever club would be stupid enough to have them.

(Cue the deceitful old windbag - the same self-righteous twat who was whining about people criticising Springboks and the same disgusting hypocrite who launched spiteful, long-winded and vitriolic attacks against Andre Pretorius, Brent Russell, JJ Engelbrecht, CJ van der Linde, Pat Lambie, Jean Deysel, Pierre Spies, Adrian Garvey and too many other Springboks to mention - having a little snivel because Rooinek is being mean to his laughable choice of Springbok flyhalf! LMAO!)
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
12 May 2014, 15:31
#7
12 May 2014, 15:31#7
I've always said he was overrated and I stand by that. It's an opinion and it's my opinion. Crucify me if you want to.
I have been a Sharks supporter since they were simply Natal way back in 1990 ( I have the shirt to prove it  ) and that match on Saturday was one of the most dismal I have ever seen in my life ( including many a Wanderers match on the back pitch at Franklin's Gardens  ) It was horrific and the players looked embarrassed out there, as they should have been. Change the tactics, who cares what the Coach says....just get out there and actually play !!

Yes, the RWC win was a bit of a fluke. England were dismal and got to the Final by sheer will really. We still should have had a number of Penalties ( Steyn held the man on the floor after the tackle which resulted in an SA Penalty, should have been an English one, for example and there should have been a Yellow Card for Burger for the tackle that took out Jason Robinson )  We finished the match with a replacement 9 on the Flank and 14 men, I think, having run out of Subs because of injury, yet SA still couldn't score that Try. It was a good performance, and something to be proud of in defeat, but to say it was fantastic Coaching was piffle. 


As I say, never make a God of a man. It's foolish in the extreme. 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 May 2014, 16:21
#8
12 May 2014, 16:21#8
 

The Sharks have a few vital players out injured. It makes selections a tad difficult, especially if all you really have is the highly overrated Fat Fransie to steer the ship.


Like I said a zillion times before, Fat Fransie had a cracker of a season in 2007 and sadly that was all she wrote. He is the last person I would ever have called upon. His inflated ego’s detrimental to any side he plays for. 


I remember how he embarrassed himself and all South Africans when he played at 10 for the Barbarians a few years back. Taking drop shots at every opportunity. If he had missed by a whisker it would have been worth the attempt, but shanking it with his ankle so that it “woer woers” over yonder really had me livid. 


Faggot’s love and admiration of the man has me stumped.


What is there for White to do? Blaming him solely for this weekend’s fiasco is a tad unfair me thinks. Personally I think he’s done the best with what he has available.


I guess all you chumps who've never liked him much, now have an excuse to rip into him and blame him for all your woes!!


Like him or not … his record speaks for itself.



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 May 2014, 16:37
#9
12 May 2014, 16:37#9
I thought Jake had improved as a coach but that pathetic instruction to kick all day was pathetic  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
12 May 2014, 16:47
#10
12 May 2014, 16:47#10
 I've always remained constant in my thoughts, so I am speaking honestly about the subject.

I think that a one dimensional game plan ( a la Warren Gatland ) will get you found out at times and, although you will win some matches, you won't win them all these days. The game has moved on. Yes, other teams will struggle either with injuries against you or they won't cope with the physicality you bring or they won't be as good as you, so you will win by default at times. That puts your win ratio up nicely ( or Ref's might even have a shocker and " help " you on your way to victory with lots of Penalties you don't deserve etc ) But you don't ever move on. You can't just kick the ball all day long and bore the opposition into submission. It won't work forever. 
Times have changed, the game has moved on. Crikey, even England knows that  Seriously, that was a very poor match and the crowd did deserve better. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 May 2014, 17:00
#11
12 May 2014, 17:00#11
 ".................one incredibly lucky RWC win where the vagaries of the draw meant that the Springboks didn't have to play a single match against any of New Zealand, Australia or hosts France and in effect, all we had to do to win that RWC was beat the hapless Poms twice at a neutral venue."

What a load of crap. None of Australia, NZ and France were good enough to  win the 2007 RWC and none of them deserved to be in the final. We beat England (twice) who beat Australia and England beat France who beat NZ. What "right" did NZ have to a game against the mighty Boks  of 2007? They rightfully did not even deserve a shot at England. We also beat Argentina who beat France, who beat NZ and who also lost to England who we beat.

Nah....  So what if we didn't play against three teams who could either not make or get past the semi-finals and consequently did not even deserve a spot in the final.?
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
12 May 2014, 17:32
#12
12 May 2014, 17:32#12
 Nz 2007 side or OZ could of beat Sa of 2007, who knows speculating either way is pointless 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 May 2014, 17:55
#13
12 May 2014, 17:55#13
 Yup, you guys won the 2007 RWC, congrats. Next game please
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 May 2014, 18:03
#14
12 May 2014, 18:03#14

3ku1

Status: Squad member
Posts: 537 RE: Is Jake White really that good?
May 12, 2014, 15:32:19  Nz 2007 side or OZ could of beat Sa of 2007, who knows speculating either way is pointless 
True, but then again.................... but by that reckoning SA could have beaten NZ in  2011...............
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
12 May 2014, 18:16
#15
12 May 2014, 18:16#15
 True but by that reckoning if were sticking to the same logic that the Abs and Oz of 2007 couldent beat Eng and France the same Opp Sa beat. Then seeing SA couldent beat Aussie (Yeah Yeah i know Bryce was playing a little fast and loose with the whistle, but we all know before that boks hd several oppurtunities that they failed to convert into points), and seeing NZ smashed Aussie, then France in the final who beat Wales was it sorry going off the top of my head here. Then if theirs no way Nz 2007 deserved to be in the final, theirs no way Bokkie of 2011 did. But like i said this is all speculation, end of day, remind me who wan, oh thats right NZ   Re Jake White he wan a wc, so he cant be too bad of a coach.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
12 May 2014, 18:48
#16
12 May 2014, 18:48#16
 
The Bokke under De Villiers in 2011 never had a shot at the title.

John Smit and his quota coach saw to that.

How we beat Wales is still a mystery to me.

We were unbeatable at the 2007 WC. Looking for excuses to take away what was achieved is childish.

That trophy was ours the moment we whitewashed England.

— END OF THREAD —

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