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FORUM / RUGBY /  Is Mapoe a victim of the hapless De Allende?

Is Mapoe a victim of the hapless De Allende?

Started by Pakie35 REPLIES680 VIEWS· 02 Aug 2016, 10:12
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PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
02 Aug 2016, 10:12
#1
02 Aug 2016, 10:12#1
After Lionel Mapoe put in yet another excellent performance at center for the Lions, one has to ask questions about his rather anonymous performances in the recent tests for the Boks. Was he a victim of the hapless no-pass De Allende playing inside him, or simply of a Bok system that can't decide what type of game it wants to play? I'm not convinced yet that it is just a case of Mapoe being out of his depth at test level.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
02 Aug 2016, 10:44
#2
02 Aug 2016, 10:44#2

Well that's a little obvious don't you think......there was clearly no game plan in place.......under Ackerman the impressive Mapoe had direction under Coetzee he was clutching at straws.


I don't get how people can conclude that a player could be potentially out of his depth at test level based on a game or two where the lad got little ball. The skill set he showed against the Highlanders is going to be no different at test level......against the Highlanders, he was up against 5 AB backs......so how is that going to be different at test level......I just don't get the logic in your potential thinking.


Mapoe is good enough to be a test centre, would I play him as my Bok 13, no I would not mostly because he is now 28 and I'd invest in a younger option who is as good.


My options at 13 would be Jessie Kriel, Janse v/Rensburg and Vortser

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
02 Aug 2016, 11:10
#3
02 Aug 2016, 11:10#3
 For me, yes and no.

I think it's is partly due to Allende, but not all down to him.

Up front the Boks were too slow. Lead by the blonde headed plodder. This would be an issue for even the best of backlines as that extra  split second of time and 1/2 meter of space is where the attack thrive. The Boks at no point during 240 minutes against the Irish had the pleasure of this service.

The Bok game plan was completely at sea and the Lions players who came on, i believe actually reverted to what they knew and didn't follow the coach's structure.  This was ultimately our saving grace. And hopefully a lesson for AC too.

De Allende was poor though and there was the odd occasion that he could have off-loaded. Again, i think the guy has been badly coached because remember, he played under Coetzee/Meyer and now under Fleck/Coetzee. I think he is a much better player than what we have seen of late. Fleck has all but admitted that he is out of his depth. Meyer was a moron whose ass i'd still love to kick and i don't know about Coetzee. One thing that gives me hope for Coetzee is that he doesn't seem arrogant. He looks like a guy who understands that nobody knows everything. Maybe he'll adapt and be able to take on good advice and discard bad ideas. I'm probably wrong but he looks like he is willing to do that. I really hope so.

On form, there is no way Allende starts ahead of Janse VRB. That much is clear. Faf, Jantjies, VRB, Mapoe. That's pretty much the combo that is head and shoulders beyond anything else atm.

Starting the the above 4, with Combrink. And guess what...that meets the 50% transformation target when you add Skosan into the mix

All just speculation of course.

To alleviate transformation pressure in the forwards i would start Skarra over Strauss and also have Notshce(spelling) on the flank. I think that both those lads are good players. Both strong, get around the park quickly and look to off-load. Ideally i'd start Marx but this is South Africa. Beast is probably a spent force but offers the only other reasonable "color" in the front row.

So in total you'd have 6 of the starting 15 being transformation positive. What's that, about 40%? With Skarra and Notche you are not loosing any pace and beast will do his job at scrum time. Running that system allows for the Lions game plan while not loosing too many key players.

Still i think Mostert is a vital cog in the Lions machine but unfortunately we all love Eben. The great Arnie of the Bok team who regularly puts on that mud to hide from the predator and completely vanishes during games except for when he makes that one line-out steal that guarantees him his spot for another three games. haha Funny how for all his size he is less successful at turning tackles into mauls that Kriel who is midget in comparison. Hi height also makes him very susceptible to being stripped and that fact that he doesn't ever of-load compounds this issue. Lets not discuss pace because then the graph falls off a cliff. For me, and probably because i am so ignorant, Eben does not deserve a starting spot. PSDT does.

Moz made a comment before where he talked on the grunt work Eben does. And he's probably right. Only, why is it that i notice Mostert's grunt work so much more? Why do i notice RG Snyman's grunt work so much more? Hell there have been some outstanding performances form a good few locks in s18 this season and Eben has been average at best. We'll keep picking him though.

If i were Coetzee i would start without Strauss, Eben, Willie and Peitersen against Argentina and see what happens. They've all played together for years now and missing one game won't do their form/synergy any harm while it will provide vital insight into what could be possible with some key selection changes.

Sorry if i went on after Allende but couldn't help myself haha
Some Tuesday morning ramblings from me





PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
02 Aug 2016, 11:22
#4
02 Aug 2016, 11:22#4
 Saffex, going against what everyone seems to say, i support your view of Kriel at center. maybe for now as an understudy to Mapoe, who'll be 32 at the next WC.

My feeling is that Kriel with his pace, ability create space and to off-load will serve JVRB very well. if either one of those guys creates a gap for the other to exploit there is very little that will stop either of them. Galant into that mix and we have a makings of a bloody stellar bench and starting line-up. I also don;t think Kriel's defence is as poor as people say. The reason being that most people talk about his performances under Meyer, who basically invited all comers to run at us  over and over and over and over. Eventually you will miss a tackle.

So i support you 100% in that idea.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Aug 2016, 14:52
#5
02 Aug 2016, 14:52#5
 Mapoe is an awesome player ... within the Lions mix that is.
Anyone and everyone outside De Allende are made to look bad.
He's just not Bok material.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Aug 2016, 15:06
#6
02 Aug 2016, 15:06#6
 Wait and see what happens if Van Rensburg is selected  at 12.  With Coetzee as coach I will lay my last bet that the backline will malfunction as it did against the Irish.    Sorry - but you lot are on the wrong track here.      
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
02 Aug 2016, 15:10
#7
02 Aug 2016, 15:10#7
 You may be right.
We have all seen the brilliance of Janse van Rensburg. If that had to change we'd all know where to point the finger. 

BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
02 Aug 2016, 15:17
#8
02 Aug 2016, 15:17#8
 Yes the argument for the Lions to switch jumpers to the Boks (broadly) will not work as AC will still be there to un coach them. We need the whole Lions set up to move into the Bok fold.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2016, 16:29
#9
02 Aug 2016, 16:29#9
....Kriel and Allende were there through the whole WC and did nothing to further our cause. And that's all coaching.
Can you imagine JdV or O Driscoll doing nothing, never popping up at the right place to mount an attack?
These two guys are not self starters they react.....and if nothing stimulates them they remain wall paper. Not my kind of centres.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
02 Aug 2016, 16:39
#10
02 Aug 2016, 16:39#10
What I especially like about Mapoe is how aware he is of what's going on around him when running with the ball. Looking for the offload, even slowing down to allow support to catch up to him on one of his recent breaks. He's a pretty smart player.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Aug 2016, 17:37
#11
02 Aug 2016, 17:37#11
 He is and may serve us well this year in the absence of a new long term choice. If the inside 3 are Lions, he has to get any tie breaker vote....there is a great deal of synergy between the Lions.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
03 Aug 2016, 10:29
#12
03 Aug 2016, 10:29#12
Did somebody mention on here that Cois De Bruin has been called in by Coetzee to assist him? I though I read that somewhere.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
03 Aug 2016, 10:52
#13
03 Aug 2016, 10:52#13
"Wait and see what happens if Van Rensburg is selected at 12. With Coetzee as coach I will lay my last bet that the backline will malfunction as it did against the Irish. Sorry - but you lot are on the wrong track here" @Mike It does seem as though the Bok back line will be a predominantly Lion one. Will Coetzee really let them run different attacking lines, set moves etc? It would seem absolutely crazy to do that when they already have plays that regularly slice defenses open and are well drilled. Logically, and provided he does go with mainly Lions players in the line, he may add a few moves but i dont think he'll have them re-inventing the wheel. Or are you saying that they'll follow a completely different game plan? My feeling is that Coetzee had a major scare against the Irish and will be too afraid of getting annihilated by the ABs, Oz and Argentina to upset the Lions apple cart too much. If anything, I think he his stance is gonna be an enabling one. Thing is, the Boks actually have a very good chance of winning this RC if Coetzee plays his cards right. They will be playing against Argentina who have a team that are well used to each other but should still beat them. The ABs and Oz, i havent looked at their squads but I'm guessing they both have a lot of new players that haven't played together as unit very much. By selecting the form Lions, and a few other others he'll pretty much be putting a well oiled up against teams still finding their way a bit. Thus probably giving us the better shit at an RC title than we've had in years. Coetzee has a very nice opportunity to do something special for SA rugby thus season and I hope he sees that. Does that make any sense?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
03 Aug 2016, 12:10
#14
03 Aug 2016, 12:10#14
 Cois would be a huge asset for the Boks. Hope it's true.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Aug 2016, 15:08
#15
03 Aug 2016, 15:08#15

Bullshit that is a complete lie regarding de Allende and Kriel in the WC......stats tell me they were better as a combo than any other centre pair in the WC


de Allende beat more defenders than any other centre in the WC and made more turnovers than any other centre in the WC


Kriel made more clean breaks than any centre in the WC


Therefore no way in hell could they have not advanced our cause, for if they hadn't then no centre pair in the WC did


A simple FACT  

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
03 Aug 2016, 20:23
#16
03 Aug 2016, 20:23#16
I won't argue that Lionel Mapoe has been a lot more impressive in the Lions setup than in the Springbok setup but I'm not convinced that's because of Damien De Allende.
I know De Allende gets a lot of criticism for his allegedly poor defence but any time I'm given the choice between a centre who is a reliable defender or one who can drop his shoulder to bump off the opposition defender and score a try to win you a test match the way De Allende did in the fantastic comeback win against Ireland at Ellis Park then I know who I'll pick.
De Allende and Mapoe have both shown enough individually to warrant another chance to prove themselves as the Springbok centre pairing . . . and if they ever click, God help the opposition!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Aug 2016, 21:03
#17
03 Aug 2016, 21:03#17
 What did they do in the contested part of the WC to make a difference Dave?  Allende made a few steals against  NZ ....that's it. Numbers against the USA are of no consequence.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Aug 2016, 09:28
#18
04 Aug 2016, 09:28#18
 All these "what ifs" and "if only's" don't solve our issues at center. 
Fact remains that we have been ineffective there ... fact remains that De Allende has been shown up as a stupid 12 ... a dumb muscle ... who's only desire is to crash ball all friggin match long ... ensuring that anyone outside him is neutralised ... taken out of play. 
He doesn't have the insight we need to get a proper back line movement going. He cannot read the game and creates nothing for those on his outside. Simply clueless.  
The All Blacks would have dropped him immediately and probably never looked at him again ... and rightly so.
Why stick with him when we already know that he's not the answer?
There's enough incompetence in the side already ... we certainly don't need to add to it by holding on to him with the "and if they ever click, God help the opposition!" mentality.
That's just stupid.



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Aug 2016, 11:25
#19
04 Aug 2016, 11:25#19
 Anybody trashing Allende has no clue whatsoever. Put Allende in the Lions set up and then speak. The facts are very obvious the Lions have the only functioning backline in South Africa. Its also very obvious it's not about the players is about coaching.I have been on about the lack of intelligence in our approach for years. The Lions prove my point comprehensively. 
To make matters worse than they need be the best SA coaches have been sidelined. Rassie, Mallet, Jake and Brendon Venter.  The kiwis are the biggest crooks in the game and we are the masters of shooting ourselves in the foot.




BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Aug 2016, 11:38
#20
04 Aug 2016, 11:38#20
 If you want to destroy the Bok pack the first things you would do is play Scurrs=a barely 100 kg midget!! - and Notche (102kg). Utter and complete madness.Face facts oaks, if quotas are enforced the Boks are finished as a major world rugby power.
Get interested in Golf and Tennis as a backup as the time could come when the Boks losing will happen too often and will get to be too frustrating! Personally I love the tennis and can watch it for hours!!! 
Encounters where  SA sides field B teams to pander to the corrupt anc; with low level coaches and then throw in loaded games where bent refs rule has limited appeal! I just wonder what that bent kiwi ref Glen Jackson will get up to!!
Reading the supine accepting posters here with little backbone to fight quotas one has to conclude all is lost. Then we also have ou rooitwit hero worshipping the hapless wee abs. It' s all so sad to see! Bwhaahhahahahahahahahaha 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Aug 2016, 11:57
#21
04 Aug 2016, 11:57#21
 No thanks, Beandip. 
You keep De Allende. 
The only reason we have a functioning back line is because De Allende doesn't play for us. He smothers every ball he touches.  
We don't need him ... nor do we want him ... EVER!!!
Why do I get the feeling your trying get rid of him?? Can't say I blame you.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Aug 2016, 13:22
#22
04 Aug 2016, 13:22#22

Moz the same can be said of any centre pair in the WC if you want to start discounting the minor games.


Against Wales and NZ, the matches that counted, the Bok centre pair achieved parity with their opposite numbers, despite playing a conservative style.


Rewind a few months and the same centre pair ripped Nonu and Smith apart in the RC


Simple facts


Fact is Jessie Kriel and de Allende have already proved themselves at test level, as credible coach would know that and invest in that combination that worked so well together.


Both players have without doubt what it takes to make it at test level as a combo. de Allende has freakish strength and good skills, Kriel is the perfect foil with his speed, feet and physicality.


The reality of test match rugby is that centres a offered little opportunity to shine.....look no further than the centres that played test match rugby this year......name a single centre that really shone?


Your expectations at test level for a centre operating in structured and well organised defences are beyond realistic......I'd listen to you if all the other centres playing test match rugby were setting the world alight, while our pair looked lost......its simply not the case.


Identify the talent, which we have in abundance at centre and show faith and investment in them......de Allende and Kriel should be the incumbents, with the likes of Mapoe, Serfontein, Janse v/Rensburg, Vorster, Frans Venter and Odendaal pressing for honours. Right now Janse v/Rensburg is pushing very hard.  

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Aug 2016, 15:10
#23
04 Aug 2016, 15:10#23
 De Allende should rather go back to club rugby and learn his trade properly before playing at senior level again. There is more to it than out muscling your opponent. 
Kriel should return to where he's comfortable ... at full back for the Bulls. Prove himself there for a season or two before being approached for national duty ... if ever. 
Serfontein should resign himself to Super Rugby. He's lucky to be included in one of our SR franchises. He's not test material. The jump from junior rugby to test level rugby is beyond him. He's had a number of season to make his mark and has sadly failed.
Janse van Rensburg is the best 12 in the country. He should be handed the 12 jersey immediately. It's not a matter of him pushing De Allende for the jersey but rather taking what's rightfully his.
  
 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Aug 2016, 15:45
#24
04 Aug 2016, 15:45#24
What did Nonu do in the RWC semi apart from registering  the most centre metres? He won the game. Getting the ball close to the Bok line, instead of blundering into contact as Allende would have done.....he exploited the fact that Allende refused to come up and make the challenge. So he threatened the outside gap, drawing in JP and allowing Barrett to dive over for the winning try.....unopposed.

Just one example.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Aug 2016, 15:47
#25
04 Aug 2016, 15:47#25

Rubbish, both de Allende and Kriel have already proven themselves at test level and were brilliant last year and good in the WC


Kriel has played as much rugby at 13 as he has at 15.....in fact he played 13 at school so has probably played there more than anywhere else.


Serfontein like the above has proved himself at test level, despite useless Meyer playing him out of position at 13. Class act this boy


Janse v/Rensburg has always had it.....my guess is that he would be better employed at 13


Right now, de Allende and Kriel would start for me with Janse v/Rensburg on the bench  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Aug 2016, 16:28
#26
04 Aug 2016, 16:28#26
 Well Dave the Bools don't agree. Kriel was a dry hole in the S15...that's why he was moved.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Aug 2016, 16:46
#27
04 Aug 2016, 16:46#27

Bullshit, Kriel was moved to 15 after Gelant got injured and SP failed at 15.....the Bulls had options at centre in Odendaal and Dries Swanepoel, so it made sense to move Kriel to 15......good utilization of recourses


Not only was this an obvious move, the coach said as much.


As soon as the impressive Gelant returns, Kriel will be back at 13 with Swanepoel back on the bench   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Aug 2016, 17:02
#28
04 Aug 2016, 17:02#28
If Kriel was really making things happen at 13 they would never have moved him....they would have found another solution. Swopping  Swanepoel for Kriel was easy because they felt they were losing nothing. 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
05 Aug 2016, 09:30
#29
05 Aug 2016, 09:30#29
 To think of all those years wasted at 13. 
How thick is this Kriel? Spending so much time there and not being able to pick up the skill set ... in all that time?!!
I know it's a difficult position to get under the belt but honestly to walk away from it and still be clueless. ... how is that possible?
I guess it was just not meant to be. 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
05 Aug 2016, 10:52
#30
05 Aug 2016, 10:52#30
Always hilarious seeing the likes of Moffie or Klown opining on what a centre should or shouldn't be able to do.

Moffie is such a scrawny little weed he probably weighs less than Damian De Allende's breakfast while Klown is a bloated tub of lard who couldn't overtake Jessie Kriel if he was driving a car.

Yet here we have the stick insect and the fat blob pontificating about centre play when neither one has held a rugby ball in his life!

LMAO!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2016, 11:38
#31
05 Aug 2016, 11:38#31

Um no Moz....the coach said that Kriel was moved to 15 as SP Marais was out of form......from the coaches mouth!!


Its simple.....Kriel, Swanepoel and Odendaal in the same backline is a better option than having SP, Kriel and Odendaal......its that simple


So what happens when Gelant returns to 15, will Kriel in your eyes not replace Swanepoel at 13????


Why are you not able to accept the reality of what happened instead of just making things up to fit your bullshit?


I'll say it one more time......the coach on the Bulls site said Kriel was to replace SP at 15 because he was struggling with form. 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
05 Aug 2016, 12:15
#32
05 Aug 2016, 12:15#32
For me it's gotta be Mapoe & JVRB for the RC. I'd say drop De Allende and bring in Jessie at either15 with Combrink on the wing, or play Jessie off the bench for Mapoe. If I had to chose between Kriel and De Allende, considering how we'd like the Boks to play, there's just no room for Allende currently. The only facet that he beats Kriel in is the crash ball. They very thing we want to avoid. Whereas Kriel has a good turn of pace and is permanently on the shoulder of his attacker, waiting for the off-load. exactly what we want. Honestly, I see him doing well in a Lions dominated Bok squad. His pace also makes him well suited to the scrambled attacks the Lions seem to do well at. Defense? I dunno, he's never stood out for me as a poor defender. No worse than Allende anyway. Then there is Goosen, who admittedly I've not seen a great deal of. These are all secondary issues. The main issue is the front 3 and the captain. Once that is sorted out I think things will look a lot better. For me, Jaco Kriel needs to get the armband sooner rather than later. Seems to really be the guy who players rally around. Players player for two years running!? very telling. I don't think their are many who respect Strauss more than him.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2016, 15:41
#33
05 Aug 2016, 15:41#33
 Okay none of us know exactly what was in the Bools mind when Kriel was put in his best position. So answer me this, if Kriel succeeded at 13 for the Boks, was doing great things for the Bools.....why was Mapoe preferred to him against Ireland?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2016, 17:04
#34
05 Aug 2016, 17:04#34
Because Mapoe is coloured  
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
05 Aug 2016, 20:35
#35
05 Aug 2016, 20:35#35
 Klop Saf. Not a bad player, but the colour of his skin seems to be more important than his form.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2016, 23:26
#36
05 Aug 2016, 23:26#36
Mapoe is marginal but has had a much better S15 than Kriel, which is why the inc.umbent was dropped. If Kriel was much superior there were other options to meet the quotas.
— END OF THREAD —

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