It is getting near to the test rugby season iro incoming tours - Springbok selections

The situation as to Springbok selection is getting problematic and I will try and clarify the issue and come up with what I believe should be the team.
 The full back position is to my mind limited to 2 players only - either Willie le  Roux or Andries Coetzee.   From what I gather is that his club is using Willie on the wing - where the Springboks have serious problems.   However, I think either of the two would fit into the game plan of the Lions and would be effective.   I would have both in the squad and see how  things develop further.   Have a slight inclination to play Le Roux based on experience rather than anything else.
On the wing there is only one player who select himself.  and that is Ruan Combrinck.  All the other contenders have pace - but have serious defensive liabilities.   It is difficult to get over that problem - where they have good  attacking abilities, they are poor defenders - where they are better  defenders they are somewhat defective insofar as attacking ability is concerned.   The pest issue of quotas is also a problem in this case.   So who should be in the mix here?   I think that the candidates here are Sibusiso Nkosi, Kobus van Wyk and Lwazi Mvovo.   For he future development I would prefer Nkosi - but would not be surprised if Mvovo is selected in this case.
The center position is a mess and there are in fact a very few candidates available.   The main weakness is the no 13 position,   In that case there are various candidates -  all with problems of their own.   Take for instance Mapoe - in a rampant Lions team performance yesterday Mapoe was in fact a weak link.   While the Bulls team malfunctioned Serfontein stood out on his own.   Francois Venter is defensively problematic.   Personally I would move Vorster to 13 and hope for the best.   Frans Steyn was also mentioned in newspaper reports a few weeks ago - but he is definitely not a center - his defense is a taboo as well.   In attacking play he routinely deliver very  little - in defense he is a serious liability - for instance in the club game yesterday he attempted 13 tackles and missed 4 of those.  Steyn wiykd diusruotthe whole backline.    De Allende played very little rugby this year - but in both games he played in there were positive signs that he may be the answer in the absence of Janse van Rensburg,
Jantjies is in fact the only name that comes up in this case - there will always be question marks as to his ability to play under pressure,  Take for instance minute 11 in the game yesterday - when he saw a big forward coming in to tackle him he dropped the ball.   However, the opposition is weak in this case -  fact is Pollard was poor whenever he did play this year.  I think Coetzee has no option - but to stick with Jantjies and hope for the best.  
The scrummie situation is also problematic.   There are in fact six weakfish candidates namely De Klerk,  Hougaard, Cronje, Schreuder, Venter and Reinach.   All of the above has weaknesses that would routinely rule them out of contention. 
The weakest link in the team is the loosie combination - it was problematic with Meyer around  he preferred slow and under-performing loosies - weak in ball protection and recovery.   I would prefer a different approach.   Incidentally I think that the Du Preez twins are poor in ball handling - with Jean-Luc the better of the two.
So lets loo at the team I think should be considered:-
15   Willie le Roux14   Lwazi Mvovo13   Harold Vorster12   Damian de Allende11   Ruan Combrinck10   Elton Jantjies 9    Louis  Schreuder 8    Warren  Whiteley 7    Jean-Luc du Preez 6    Siya Kolisi 5    Pieter-Steph du Toit 4    Eben Etzebeth 3    Ruan Dreyer 2    Malcolm Marx 1    Lizo Gqoboka
16   Bongi Mbonambi17   Tendai Mtawarira/Steven Kiitshof18   Frans Malherbe19   Franco Mostert20   Vermeulen21   Venter22   Handre Pollard/Lionel Cronje23   Sbu Nkosi









 

    
    

 Mike that back line you've selected breaks up the Lions combinations exactly like Coetzee did last year.
Are we to imagine that Coetzee will magically have found a game plan this year? 
A full Lions team will beat the team you selected. Sorry but that's just how it is.
BTW Skosan us not a defensive Liability and either Ross Cronje or Faf would work just fine.
I say select almost entirely a Lions team, beat France and use that series as a platform/springboard for integration maybe just a handful of other players into the Lions system.

 
As is usual ... poor analysis ... followed by a very poor selection of players.

Completely clueless.

This damn fool critises Meyer and everyone else and then he comes up with this horseshyte.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaa!!!

Idiot!!!

The Lios team has weaknesses which would make it impossible to use the team only in tests and I tried to identify some of them.  I would have no serious problems with Skosan - but he has defense liabilities and I would think that it would not work in tests.   One player that should not be anywhere near the team is Mapoe - he was the weak link in the team yesterday.  

 
Defensive liabilities ?? ... you mean like De Allende ... like Mvovo ... how about Malherbe?

You push Vorster out to 13 so that you can include the braindead De Allende. That's desperate, Comrade.

You leave the two best opensiders out and put a blindside flank in at 6 ... ??

Beast?? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaaa!!!

You don't even know who our top loosehead props are.

I think it's best that you no longer give us your Bok team. It exposes you as a clueless fool.

 Cleancut
I suppose you also wants all the Lions players in the Springbok squad and is as thick as a plank with your hatred of certain players.   Lets wait and see what happens.
I criticize players with reason - not based on prejudice.  and I made some suggestions for consideration by members and proper discussion - not for personal attack purposes.   That is why your contribution is totally without value and useless.   If that is all you can produce you may as well shut up.     

 
Perhaps if you pull your head out your arse you'd see the talent we have available.

Kolisi IS NOT one of them. He never has been and that's not going to change anyday soon. You would rather have him in place of Cloete or Kriel?? A blindside flank on the openside?? 

What's the matter with you?

Neither is the brain-dead De Allende. Does this fool even know that he's got a player on his outside? Perhaps he never learnt how to pass the ball. Could that be the issue? Let's not even speak of his defensive "deficiencies" ...

What has Lizo Gqoboka ever done to qualify for the Bok no 1 jersey?? Huh?????

Beast is useless. He has been for the last 5 years.

Mvovo?? A Bok?? LOL!!!! Really"?? Is that honestly the best you can come up with?

Bongi?? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaaaaa!! Marutllule is 10 times his better.

No, Comrade ... you are as ignorant as they come.

Ratrher stick to your worthless stats. The reality of Bok rugby is beyond you.

 Mike, I am not insulting you. Neither am I claiming to know more than you do.
All I am saying is that man for man the Lions players, Marx and Whitely aside, are not presently the best in their position. It's their combinations, communication and understanding that makes the Lions our best team.
So if you are going to go the route of picking the best players in individual positions then you may as well leave out the majority of Lions players you picked.
Going halfies-halfi es on it means that you are doing exactly as Coetzee did last year and your results will be no different. No communication, broken links and God only knows what game plan will be used.
That's all I'm saying. 
So what's the plan? Based on the team you've picked?

 Also Mike, an outside centre is only as good as his communication with the man inside him.
You fail recognise that Mapoe and Voster don't yet have the communication that Mapoe and JSVR have. 

 The whole point of having a test side is to combine the best available players into a group and then make a team of them. You can't pick the best team and make the whole team Boks.

 
Hey Plum ... who would you consider to be better than Marx ... or Whitely?

For that matter ... Combrink, Kriel, Ackerman, Vorster, Janse van Rensburg, Dylan Smith, Dreyer, Mostert, Skosan??

Even our scrummie must surely rank as one of the better options in the country.

 I agree 100% Draad.
I think of it like chemotherapy. No normal person requires it. It's a terrible thing to do to a living organism. But, in the event of cancer it is unfortunately one of the best solutions. 
The Boks presently have cancer. Normally we would pick the best players and make a team out of them. That is always PLAN A. Unfortunately the present situation requires that we chemotherapy the Boks so as to try and resotre the team to some kind of normality.
In the shrot term this offers clear direction as to player selection as well as game plan and subsequent team spirit. There are obvious long term positives too. 
So I'll ask again, as I've asked other's. Show me a better solution to the current Bok situation?

 CC I don't think we have better than Marx or Whitely. No other players even come close.
I left Combrink out since he has just returned...lol not that he missed a beat yesterday. Who says you need five games to return to top form? Clearly Ruan never read the script. No other wings in SA touch him either. 
The other names you mention could be argued down here and there depending in one's loyalties. I was just pointing to the ones that were completely indisputable. IE the first names on the team sheet regardless of which province you support.
I'd like to know who would leave either Marx or Whitely out of their starting 15. Lol I know. Probably Coetzee.

 Lol CC you forgot Akkerman ;) I'd have him as skipper in a few years time. He is surrounded by strong leaders with good ideas and gets stuck in for 80 minutes each week. What better learning ground is there?

 
LOL!!

Thought I may have pushed it a tad so I left him out deliberately ... but yes you are right ... he is a star in the making ... of that there's no doubt. He deserves a mention ... and so Ive amended the list above accordingly.

It was the right thing to do.

 Now we just need to help the other 50 odd million South Africans see the light :)

 
It's not as though we're biased ... or anything, right??

Just pointing out the facts ... that's all.

Why in the world wold you want a Kolisi when you could have a KRIEL ... or an Etzebeth when you have a Mostert?

Hopefully the rest of the country will have a few more grey cells than old Comrade Mike.





 

 Ou maaaaikie are you going plumb crazy! Seems also you are buying in to the quota scandal.Pick your team on merit and then we can talk! I am crossing out very definte no selection whilst not agreeing with some others. 

15   Willie le Roux14   Lwazi Mvovo13   Harold Vorster12   Damian de Allende11   Ruan Combrinck10   Elton Jantjies 9    Louis  Schreuder 8    Warren  Whiteley 7    Jean-Luc du Preez 6    Siya Kolisi 5    Pieter-Steph du Toit 4    Eben Etzebeth 3    Ruan Dreyer 2    Malcolm Marx 1    Lizo Gqoboka
16   Bongi Mbonambi17   Tendai Mtawarira/Steven Kiitshof18   Frans Malherbe19   Franco Mostert20   Vermeulen21   Venter22   Handre Pollard/Lionel Cronje23   Sbu Nkosi

Hahaha Mvovo, Schreuder, Allende, Stephanie, du Preez, Gqoboka........laughable. Ask yourself this question, which players are of proven international quality to sub into the Lions team....Willie (maybe) and Etzebeth. Neither of them would negate the tactics.....a player like Stephanie with his pick and go style would, Mostert links....Stephanie goes into contact. ... Start there. I'm unconvinced by Jantjies, Dreyer, Mostert and Kleintjie at test level. I think they will have to be replaced over the year. But the replacements should come off the subs bench as they get used to the style....that way we will start the first test with a team and not a collection of rabble, who aren't even much better on a one on one basis. ... Or we can choose our best players and leave them to play the traditional game they understand....kinda like Ireland. But if we are intent to play offload/ball in hand rugby......our best players are a liability. There is no way to get these guys up to speed in a few short weeks.

 Moz, if you had to put money on which option is likely to be for the best in both the short and long term...where'd your Dollars go?

 Look while I despise the quota system I had to take that into account.   If you look at options I would have to look at the players of colour as he defining norm as well.
So lets look at the various positions with due regard to the quota issue:-
Full Back :   None to be considered.Wings     :    Lets accept that the only real white candidate streets ahead of the others and that is Combrinck,   Of the players of colour they are mostly deficient n defense.  Even Skosan have such problems - not as clear as the others.   I am at a lost here and was hoping for other suggestions.   Incidentally Mvovo had a good game yesterday - especially under high balls.   His defense is also better than the other contenders.Centers  :    Mapoe against good teams are harmless and against even the wickedly poor Bulls he was very average.   He is to my mind another small backline players with serious physical limitations.   There are no other 13's that should be considered.  Loosies   :    Whether we like it or not Kolisi is a near certainty for selection.   He is not good enough - but the others ae worse,   Loosehead Prop:   We have mo tighthead contenders amongst the Black players and that means we have to look at the looseheads.  There we have Mtawarira, Nyakane, Gqboso and Nche.  Of those Nche and Gqoboso are the better scrummagers.  I may be inclined to think of Nche as the est option and will make that change.


   

        

 Mozart
I do not pick players on the basis of prejudice and dislike of players - that is your approach and I leave that to you .  I look at performance more than anything else.    Your likes and dislikes has been disastrous in the past and that list is basically endless.        

 Now Mike...could you answer what I asked you?

 The question about the outside center is a problem.  I noticed that Jantjies uses way to many skip passes cutting out Vorster in the process.    That is the only criticism I have of the Lions backline.  
Just have another look at the last three games and you will see what I mean.  
That disrupt the backline and causes problems for Mapoe who is physically too small to handle that kind of situation.   There is a place for skip passes in the game - but that should be a variation.  
Even in the game yesterday there was afterwards some criticism of the performance of the Lions in the second half and if you look at the game that the situation I mentioned was much more noticeable in the second half.   In the game yesterday Jantjies passed the ball 40 times.  Of those Vorster got 17 passes and Mapoe 21.   See what I mean? 
If they want to use that kind of system - they need a much more physical player at 13 than Mapoe.    

Nevermind Mike. 
I was asking something else.

The best the selectors could do is to select the Lions players and make them all "Springboks".
After all the players that have become so-called "Springboks" over the last number of years, what difference would a few more make?
In doing this the selectors will once and for all settle the issue about the Lions being hailed as an international standard team, the only issue I see would be in meeting the quota.
But that appears to be the answer to most posters.
Thankfully the Lions Springboks are only facing France and not Italy or Japan.

 plum
You actually asked two questions - I answered only one.   Lets get it straight about the game plan issue.  Like Meyer Coetzee has no game plan and one can only hope that Venter and Smith can develop a game plan that would help in this case.
I cannot see how the Lions can function on the basis of Coetzee non-existent game plan and I think that it would not happen constructively,  
It worries me and I am not sure that anything will get corrected at all.   As lonh as Coetzee is coach we will struggle like it is unbelievable. 

Many of the players and the coaches are stuck in the past. 
We will have Coetzee coaching the SpringLions- but they will play nothing like they do in Super Rugby. 

 Exactly Mike. Our coach is so shirt that we pretty much have no other way to go. That's the point I have been trying to make. Everyone seems to think that I reckon all the Lions are test standard...WHICH IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING.
I guess people read what they want to. 

 Plum
There are differences of opinion on players - often enough based on prejudice with no regard to performance.   I for one has reason to look only at performance.   I would on merit not have picked the above team listed above - since that is not possible with the quota system in place.  
In dealing with some players I noticed for instance in the case of De Allende yesterday that he was instrumental in the scoring of two tries by the Stormers - while for instance Mozart ignored that and came up with a falsified story.  
That being said - I also took note of the fact that Gqobosa did give the Lions difficulties in scrumming yesterday.  He was solid the rest of the Bulls were BS.   

   

Most of the local posters on this forum are of the opinion that the Lions are by far the best bet with respect to providing most if not all the players to represent SA on the field. 
This is worth a try I assume and much better than allowing those turkeys on the selection committee to make selections.
I should also state that I personally do like 5 or 6 Lions players who I also regard as Springbok material.
They are:
WhiteleyMostertMarxCombrinkKriel

 
The team you selected was yours. Don't go blaming your ignorant selection on Coetzee now. That team was your own idea of who should be in the side.
 
You have a 10 and 12 that don't know what a defence is supposed to be. Both channels will be like a highway to our try-line for any and all sides. You were desperate to get De Allende in so out goes Vorster to 13.

I take it you have noticed him doing well at 12 this season, right? Much better than the brain dead De Allende. 

You have a wing at 11 who shouldn't be there ... a 6 that should be left back at home but you've taken a fancy to him all season long ... singing his praises almost every day ... no Kriel or Cloete ... no Marutllule ... Vermeulen with an attitude problem ... a starting loosehead prop that's suddenly been promoted to test rugby without reason ... he doesn't even come off the bench.

Is there anything about this sport that you actually understand? Anything at all?

And yes, Comrade ... you are prejudice.

Also ... Comrade ... Plum was asking you about your game plan ... with that awful team you selected I too was wondering if you had any ideas ... or are those just random names thrown together in an attempt to sound "clever" ??

 Mostert might be a decent number 7 flank at Bok level. He is mobile and has a high work rate. Good tackle counts and understands the ruck, and good lineout option. 

Plum to answer your question, I would like to see the Sharks or Stormers play the Lions using their old game......with committed defence and with good line speed.....face it, they don't do the new game very well. In the absence of that, all we know is the Lions have thrashed all our other teams comprehensively over the last two seasons. We have to respect that. .

 Indeed Mozart. 
Well the Bulls will possibly be getting a new coach. A paddy with some brains apparently. So maybe we'll see the Bulls challenge the Lions next year.
The Stormers are in too deep to turn around now. I can't see them going back to old ways any time soon.
Watching the Sharks on the weekend I was very impressed by brief glimpses of what appears to be a team that is slowly finding itself. They way they moved the ball around, or tried to anyway, made it appear like they are also headed toward a more flowing game under Du Preez. So I don't know if we'll see that old style coming from them any time soon either. 
My guess is that our best bet for old vs new lies in the variable that will be the new Bulls coach. Granted I know very little about  him apart from that he's a pretty savvy cat.
Depending on what happens with the Bok selections we might see a predominately Lions/Boks team come up against a French side eager to come up off the line. Maybe there'll be some answers there.
I dare say that nothing can be worse than last year.

 
Shark ... Mostert clocks in at 2.01m which I suppose isn't the biggest of locks out there but it does compete with Etzebeth 2.04m.

The difference between the two is that he weights 10kg lighter than Etzebeths 117kg.

What he does have over Etzebeth is a far greater work ethic. His focus is on the game and unlike Etzebeth he doesn't fade in the last 20 minutes.

I know Etzebeth can bench 175kg and I realise that with his additional weight and strength he may have the upper hand in the scrum ... but of what use is that when he's strolling around the pitch in the last 20 with his hands on his hips trying to catch his breath?

Etzebeth is a freak of nature. I hear he's explosive over the first 40m. It's just a pity that he's so easily provoked which usually leads to a lot of facial aerobics and off the ball stuff. Other teams use this to their advantage.

If I had to put my life in either of their hands I'd go with Mr Mostert.

As for flank ... let's rather stick to a specalist there and not retread a lock. We have plenty talented 7's available.