Its no accident that the cheetahs and sharks are the top SA teams on the table

2 teams that are playing open up tempo attacking possesion based rugby are topping the table. while the other SA teams that play the depucnant forwards smash em up game pattern are not up to standard. the teams with the best backlines are on top of the SA conf.

this proves that the cheetahs and the sharks game pattern is the way forward. one cannot underestimate the influence brussouw has on the cheetah line up in terms of the role he performs on the deck.

stormers and bulls face a up fill battle if they do not change there mindset and game pattern. the days of oversized forwards bashing opposing teams into the ground is something of the past. the smaller lose trios of the cheetahs and sharks are outshining all there counterparts.

Carpetmuncher

There are a number of advantages the Cheetahs have and that is the following:-

*   reasonable forwards with an outstanding backrow who knows how to play link-up rugby with their backline and can defend excellently;

*  A backline that is endeavouring to attack  all out nd allow the ball to do the work for them.

The Sharks have a strong forward combination - but up to the recent game against the Rebels, the Shaks backline was largely disfunctional and in the latter game only used to a limited extent.   In the latter game their mobile and talented loosies came into the game on a major basis.   I foresee a much different approaach in future, beause the Sharks have removed the one-dimensional Steyn from his postion at 12 and Lambie is clearly instructed not to kick balls away.

Insofar as the Stormers are concerned - their backline really is dsfunctional because of the followiing:-

*   Jantjies can make a few brilliant things every three games or so - but even in those games he can be ridiculously incompetent for the rest of the games and is at best a poor all-round flyhalf;

*    De Jongh never was a reasonable player insofar as attacking rugby is concerned and was a dud inthat repect throughout Super 15 in 2011 and 2012.

The Bulls are being killed by their forward-dominated approach to the game.   They have some talented backline players - but they also have some real duds up front and they must contend with Morne Steyn at flyhalf.   The latter has a major impact on negative backline play.

spot on mike could not have said it better myself.

you should really consider moving into rugby adminstration in SARU or coaching....but then again you should then again devolve your way of thinking and become allister coetzee like in you approach.

the cheetahs play the cheetahs pattern of strong front rankers competent locks and hardline running bust style flankers mixed with the dirt technicians like brussouw and co. from that they generated ruck speed and playing width that gives there backline space and speed to work with and there backline delivers. they have pretty much no names in regards to there other more star studded teams but they outperform them. the cheetahs biggest problem has never been scoring points but rather keeping points down.

one aspect that they have really tightend up on defence and there balance in terms of game plan if really top notch. there biggest problem is injuries and player depth. i do not feel a player like burton francis is a main line 10 but he showed some class on the weekend. riaan smit and goosen's loss is a massive blow to there chances.

on the sharks side class all around the park and in terms of the strike zones on attack there pattern does not differ to much from the cheetahs. there attention to the ruck is really where they are great and as we saw against the rebels if they can generate some ruck speed and attack with width and speed they can score it all night long.

in terms of franna plumtree has to undo the damage franna's game damaged with meyers one eyed game plans and lack of constructive development. he has the ablity but needs to do some serious training to get his skill levels to where it should be.

jantjies is the biggest dud buy the stormers has ever had. as soon as the jantjies and roses of the world come to cape town it seems they have other things on there mind apart from rugby

Carpetmuncher

Do you know that in the 6 games  Lappies Labuschagne did the following for the Cheetahs:-

                                           Labuschagne   Coetzee        Elstadt  Kolisi

Tries scored                   =      1                        2                   -          1

Try assists                      =      1                        -                  1          -

Clean Line Breaks          =      3                       -                   1           1

Turnovers achieved        =      4                       -                   2          1

Carrying balls                  =    23                     14                 10         17

Tackles                            =   80                      30                 36         37

Line-outs won                 =      9                       -                   3            1

Labushange was really the key between the backline performance of the Cheetahs and the forwards.    He made more clean line breaks thaan the other three players combined,   He carried the ball six more times than Kolisi - second in that category,  made more than double the amount of tackles made by each of the other three loosies mentioned and won more than double the number of line-outs compared to the other three loosies combined.

The success rate of the Cheetahs can be to a substantial exrtent be attributed to this guy.

The Sharks.....attacking rugby? Just a small problem....most of that is bs. Here are the stats from the Sharks vs the Stormers, Sharks on the left:

Please keep it real fellows.

Mozart

Did you read what I wrote about the Sharks backline play?  I was extremely critical of their performances in that regard.   So what I said is real.   The rest of my statements are 100% correct and if you can fault me I dare you to do so.

Sorry =- duplication

i agree 100% mike

the thing is that very few people understand how important role selection is. players lijke brussouw has allowed lappies to play more freely. collectivly as a unit there are among the best lose trio in the comp. as with most free states sides the lose trio is vital to there open dynamic game plan. if you want to match that with stompies lose trio there a pretty much the same. fourie adds more balance to there lose trio but AC is hell bent on having 3 locks and a semi opensider in his plans.

Carpetmuncher

You are 100% correct.  I had a quick look at what the no 6 loosies (Viljoen and Brussow achieved and the results were clear.   The two combined dis the following:=

Carrying of Balls               =      18

Turnovers in possession   =        4

Tackles made                    =      65

Line outs won                    =        2

If you co,mbine the above info with those on Labuschagne - the Stormers loosies look sick in comparison insofar as work rate si concerned.   

In more important components of the game the Cheetahs flank forwards did nearly or more than double what was done by the Stormers 2  loosies.

Wonder what Saffex would say about that one - since he is always shouting about Kolisi and recently added Elstadt to his rantings and ravings.   

The Stormers outgained the Saders 347 to 316 metres.......the Brumbies 504 to 434 metres ....and the Chiefs 406 to 372 metres. You guys are talking balls. The real issue is in the Saders match they failed to create enough offloads, particularly in the crucial last 12 minutes, when neither de Jongh nor Jantjies were on the park.

Stop talking rubbish.

Mozart

Selective stats are wonderful things - are they not?  Tiy refer t two players that was on the field of play for the last 10 minutes of the game.   In that time they combined had 11 ball carries covering adisatnce of 78 meters.   That is about 20% of all disytance gained by the Stormers in the full game.   Your two favourites carried the ball 6 times making 23 meters in 70 minutes.

What happened in thoise 70 minutes was the differene.

Stop talking rubbish.

Let me help. Jantjies is no favourite of mine.....not from day one.

De Jongh ran 4 times for 18 metres at an average of 4.5 metres. The Stormers ran 105 times for 347 metres....average of 3.6 metres a carry, including long unopposed run backs. Conclusion.....de Jongh's productivity in a tight match was well above average. As another data point....Fruen his direct opponent  ran 10 times for 15 metres, average 1.5 metres per carry.....that comes from Juan's push defence which goes, whoosh, right over your head. The other Saders centre Crotty averaged  2.8 metres a carry for 34 metres.

So stop the bullshit about de Jongh, nobody said he had a great game, but he was solid.

As for the last quarter of the game.....we had de Allende making 5 runs and Taute making 6 runs without beating a tackle or making one off load. Eleven totally unproductive runs. De Allende didn't even manage a pass!

These two chaps charged the ramparts with no guile for no results......it's not the whole story, but it's a big part of it. Capisci?

Mozart

Let me be quite clear  - my problem with De Jongh has always been that irrespective of how many times he carried balls and irrespetive of how many meters he gained - the end result was always non-productive and even counter-productive when in the process he loses possession or give away penalties,   All his ball carries end in maul situations and he has never created space for any other players to utilize.   From an attacking pespective he really is not effective.  Over the past two years he never made a single line break and he ever added value by assisting another player to score a try.  He only scored two tries against the Rebels last year because of space created by oher players and they way to the tryline was open.  

The question remains - is it really worthwhile to have a player in the team backline that does not add value to attacking play?   Is a center there to just run a few meters ending in a maul situation?   Is it not for a center to create space for other players to operate in?  

Personally I do not think that De Jongh brings enough to the party to be a really effective center.   I really believe that the Stormers will be a better attacking unit without De Jongh. They should to my mind look for a better attacking center than he is.

Now I actually agree with some of that. But I would make the same comment about 80% of our centres including Fransie, Jordaan, JJ and Taute when he played centre. Let's just leave it at that.

But you and the muncher are convinced the Cheetahs are better than the Stormers. I am not and  I'll  bet you de Jongh easily wins the centre battle against Sadie on Saturday and the Stormers win the match.

Mozart

Sure - the Stormers should win on Saturday - but would they?   A trip to Bloemfontein is never easy and the Cheetahs seems to be better than last year - when the Stormers beat them by 15 -9 - all points scored by penalty kicks at goal.    I would think that if it is not raining - like it did last year and even in the game against the Rebels - the Cheetahs game will be a handful to handle.   I provided some info on their backrow earlier under this thread.   The have a massive influence on any game the Cheetahs play in and they may just kill the efforts of the Stormers through their extremely high work rate.  A player like Labuschagne made more tackles thatn was made by the two flank forwards of the Stormers combined.   And they are effective tackles often enough leading to turnovers in possession.  He caused more turnovers than the Stormers flanks did - he won three times the number of lineouts the two Stormers flanks  did (often on oppositions throws)  and he made more line breaks than they did.   That does not even include what Brussow did.     If they maintain their work rate on the bsais that they did up to date - the Stormers backline is in for a very rough period.

Jantjies is a defensive sieve - and De Jongh is not a good face to face tackler of players weighing 20 kgs more than him.    When the loosies create space the rest of the Cheetahs backline flourishes.   Your statement on De Jongh winning the battle on Saturday against Sadie baffles me.   In what way will he win?   By doing what he has not done for two years on Super 16 level and make a cklean line break - or by merely defending against the opposing Sadie.   I cannot see him winning any battles - and one thing I am sure about - the Cheetahs knows Jantjies and they are going to go for him in a big way.   That is going to neutralize the Stormers backline and could spell serious troubles for them.

I give the Stormers a 40% chance oif beating the Stormers and then only if the Stormers can draw the Cheetahs loosies in and force them to play a tighter game and if they can get the upper hand up front.   The slightest mistakes by the forwards and the Stormers will lose - because they do not really have the backline to beat the Cheetahs.   The other thing that could help the Stormers would be if the Cheetahs play below their normal form.

Applying a little intuition to the conversation...

Shame cheetahs lost goosen as for me they ARE the saffa team to beat... Sharks are way overrated as are the stormers - bulls at home are always going to be up there... But Cheetahs all round are the real deal.

Brussow shows you saffas WHY you need a strong fetcher in the team - If stormers could have turned the ball over once v crusaders could well have been different outcome there.

For me - Go Cheetahs - playing the most entertaining rugby from SA and gotta love brussow...

Redsman

I agree with you on the Cheetahs.  Brussow has done well since his return from injury.  However, the bst Cheetahs player this year thus far was Labuschagne - at this stage the top loosie in the Super 15 competition.   I gave his stats above and rate him very highly.   His massive work rate is higher than for instance Quirk - who is highly rated in Australia.   Just as an example Quirk in 7 games made 61 tackles - in 6 games Labuscgne made 80.   The same can be said of the other loose forwards in Super 15.

However, I do believe that the Cheetahs have a 60-40 chance of beating the Stormers - that i if they continue playing like they did so far this year - so lets wait and see what happens.

well there is backwords thinking people in SA that think you can run onto a pitch and have 3 blindsiders in your team and they think somehow that is the winning template for playing rugby. brussow benched the overrated burger and louw and if he can stay injury free regain his rightfull place.

one cannot play modern rugby without a fetcher as the bulls and stormers are finding out.

its all about roles and how certain players skillsets complement each other. the likes of smith and pocock gives aussies teams such a big advantage

Gosh and there I thought Smith was in the Brumbie team the Stormers just beat....

there is different ways on how to play the game but i all the really great teams that manage that win over a sustained number of years have a role selection criteria and as the net result pick and develop there players to that template. where SA teams tend to forgot the ignore the importance of the ruck and winning that area ot the game the AB and wallies focus on that area and then to revel in it. good quick rucks had not been SA's strong suite in the past 10 odd years and that has affected our backline play the most.

SA teams rucks skills are a joke. the only 2 sides that are on level terms with the other teams are  the cheetahs and the sharks and funny enough they also tend to score more tries than the rest. the sharks have not been as consistent in terms of there attacking rugby but need to make that setup soon.

There are some classics here and have me in stiches.

I cant cover all the points just now but I found ou muchers saying the small lose trio of the sharks is the way to go. Bwahahahahhahahahahahahahha he clearly didnt see the brumbies take them apart.

The oaks doesnt knw we scored 7 tries against the brumbies and chiefs. Ou maaaaike talks of the powerful sharks pack that was trounced by the Brumbies. Wake up oaks what you need is Alberts and Du Toit in the loose trio. Get some authority going.

Leave wee daniel etc to face off against the sharks girls under 13 side ou rooitwit raves about.

Oh yes I ment also to say it is an accident. but fo rinjuries we would be well ahead by now and at least topping the SA conference.

Beeno

Just one question - stupedo - do you have a licence to talk tripe?   Your remarks anout excuses for the Stormers disasters remind me of a classic saying:-

"If my auntie had balls - she would have been my uncle.

The Stormers buggered up badly this year and they deserve to be no 12 on the log - they are lucky - they could even have been lower.   So your justifications are dreams of the wildest order. 

But then - with Coetzee thinking that Jantjies and De Jongh are the answers to his prayers - what else cabn we expect from the lowly Stormers?

 So the side that beat the top nz and Oz sides and has been very hard hit by injuries deserves to be at 12 or lower on the log. Bwahahahahaha ou maaaikie you are on a roll. What a hoot !!!!

Try and distinguish facts from excuses rather than bleating on like this. How about answering the lineout challenge I posed. 

Try and be  objective please ou maaaikie! You are making a complete twit of yourself. 

Moz I do appreciate your call for these oaks to be reaosnable but unfortunately the request itself is unreasonable as they dont have that capacity. Hahahahahahahahaha

Beeno

You really are funny.   The stormers beat the teams mentioned - but LOST everything else.  What a joke!!!!   Deserve to be 12 on the log - and lucky to be so.  

I hurts me badly to be negative about the stormers I grew up in the Southern Cape and worked in Bellville - but what Coetzee is doing with the backline of the Stormers is criminal in my view. 

 Muncher, you must be seeing a different Sharks team play than me. Apart from the Rebels game, the Sharks played even more boring rugby than the Stormers did last year. Do you really want to base your take on Sharks rugby on a game against the Rebels. On the day Pretoria Poliesie se drinkspan would have beaten the Rebels. You lot have the makings of a good team, but your team is not firing on all cylinders yet. Hope you get it right this weekend, but there is no justification in talking up the Sarks' "exciting game" ATM

 Put like a true gentleman DbD. It is quite apparent that ou maaaaikie and muncher are quite oblivious to the current state of affairs!!!!!!!

Ou maaakie your crocodile tears come very, very late in the day and cannot be taken seriously.