Jan Serfontein

I have to ask the question...

Though i already know the answer...

Who do you reckon is the best 12 in SA at the moment?

In my opinion... JS wins hands down...

When last did SA have a physical center with such fantastic vision and distribution skills?

Look, I'm not the biggest JJ fan, but he and JAn Serfontein are combining on both attack and defense so well.

And they are both Bulls players... so hopefully schmuch Meyer gives them a look in.

Chippo

I think that Meyer would like what Serfontin did yesterday - he prefers crash ball centers at 12 and Serfontein did just that yesterday.   I think that its the Bulls style of play - so he meets that requirement.   However, it would be over-optimistic to see Meyer not playing De Villiers - so I think the center - combination may just be Serfontein and De Villiers.  

However, I believe that in another environment - without the crashball emphasis - Serfontein has much more to offer than he produced yesterday - so  I think he may just have the edge on other 12's at present.  I am not sure whether he would be released from the Junior WC set-up, as that and the Moscow sevens WC as those two competitions  seem to have higher priority than the June 2013 tests would have.    Serfontein would not be in line forthe latter series - but players like Reinach and Jordaan - if fit - may come into the picture then.

 This kid is the real deal. He never needed time to get comfortable at S15 level.The difference between him and Engelbrecht or Taute is like night and day. Those guys will have to play 10 tests to adapt. Serfontein will be competing from game one.

Chippo

After looking at the game - I must add to the issue of Engelbrecht that he seems to have some problems with defence as well.  I think that his defencive stats always showed a maked indication that he has problems in that component of the game - and it showwed up yesterday again if the following stats is taken into account:-

Nice to have an attacking player - but in tests you cannot afford a player that miss more than 20% of attempted tackles.  

That raises the question - should Engelbrecht in fact play at center and not at wing?   Looking at the defensive component he is ikely to produce more on the wing than at center.   A classical example of that is the case of Pietersen - really good on defence with the assistance of the outside line.  In the last two games Pietersen's defence was really poor as is evidenced by the following:-

Taken together Pietersen in the two games attemppted to make 13 tackles - he succeeded in 8 and missed 5 - a misseed tackle ratio of more than 28%.

My own feeling is that it really is a problem when moving players from Wing to center - also at 13 - there defensive lines get lost in the process.  

polyboy

Which counterparts are you talking about - the whole lot playing thus far is questionable.  There really was no outstanding 12's this year in Super 15.  Even Hansen's selection of Nonu and Saili for the All Blacks training squad is a joke.   And the same applies to the Wallabies 12's as well.

I do not know why - but this year all the teams seems to struggle with number 12 centers - they are all really not performing well on a constant basis - especially the performances yesterday was an indication that performances in that position is not a constant.

One will have to wait and see whether Serfontein will ever be selected - unlikely to happen in the June tests - since he will be off to the Junior WC - and nobody knows what will happen in the Championships.   However, I rate th guy very highly and he is not even 20 years of age yet.      

 What a load of shit, JJ has been one of our best defending 13's all comp. I dont recall a single miss yessterday. Only a blind ignorant twit would question whether our best 13 by some distance should be playing on the wing. How bloody stupid

Saffex

JJ missed three tackles yesterday - but as per normal you mis out on things like defence.   Never see what actually happens on the field of play - which you prefer not to see.  Perfectly normal with your assessment of player performances - so why am I not surprised?

Matter of fact - in Super15 thus far this year thus far Engelbrecht made 90 tackles and missed 16 - that means he missed circa 18% of all atempted tackles.  Very high for a center - where the miss ratio should be half of that.

But I suppose you never saw any of those missed tackles either. 

Mike missing tackles is not JJ's problem. His tackling is generally ok. Dave JJs  problem is figuring out where to be defensively. I watched the game yesterday and noted several times he got beyond the attacking line. It's fine for a 13 to come up fast....the Boks have used this technique since Jake's first year. But......and this is crucial.....the opposing 13 cant get  past your defending 13 before the ball reaches him. JJ has to learn how to stay with the attacker. If he is too deep and there is a mini break inside, he tends to get stranded.

Agree eith Moz.

I dont think his tackling is a problem. Its a small positional adjustement that he needs to make,

Physically, he has all the attributes.

He also has a great attitude for a 13. He looks to score, looks to put players into good positions...

I really like him at 13.

One needs to remember, he is still young.

He and JS have plenty of time ahead of them..

Though i would love to see them in the mix in the near future, there really is no need to rush them.

Mozart

I agree with you on that score.   Even though it was not reflected as missed tackles - I think there were instances in matches where your observations was particularly pertinent - namely in the matches in New Zealand against the Blues and the Crusaders - where in the latter case the commentators said Engelbrecht hewas not in the right position in the defensive line to be efective.

Saffex will never realize that is a problem.   He does not see defensive lapses or problems in performances at all.  However, I think it may be very difficult to deal with the probem of defensive technique and get Engelbrecht out of his present approach and technique bcause that goes along with the ability of reading and interpretation of the game and thinking instantaneously of corretive measures.    Engelbrecht definitely is physicaly strong enouugh - but does he have the mental capacity required in this case? 

Sffex

You are a complete and utter dolt - go and watch the game and you wll find the cases Mozart and I refer to.   Thick as a brick you are.  I sometimes wonder whether you watch any rugby games carefully and remember what you have seen - because you constantly miss out 80% of games and then advertise that on this site. 

 JJ is the best SA outside center in the Super 15 at present and deserves higher honours. His defensive positioning will be further improved upon but it is still decent, the whole Bulls team was sloppy on defence at times and even heard mention of this by the commentators. 

Saffex

I wrote elsehwere and repeated it that Jordaan this year was disappointing at 13 - did not do enough with ball in hand, so I am notfavouring him.  

That brings me to Freuan - he is exactly the same type of player Engelbrecht is.   But he has probems in rewading of games - and consequently in defence.  Did you notice Freuan is not in the All Backs squad because of that deficienciency?

You really miss half the games - so you did not notice the problem also raised its ugly head in the Crusaders game - so much so that the commentators mentioned it in that game as well. 

Now back to this guy - and forget about Engelbrecht for the moment.   I am with Mozart on this one - where he said that Serfontein should -

*    not be used as a crashballing 12; and

*    should rather be used at 13.

Even though there were indications in games played thus far this year that he is an excellent center - and I go with that one without a shadow of a doubt - to my mind he was ineffective on Saturday in that respect.   His stats for the game was not as effective as it should have been if he did not play the one-dimensional game required by Ludeke.   His stats were as follows:-

The problem was not only was he rated as below par - if the above was taken into account - but he was also negatively rated by both Foxsport and Test Rugby - based on similar findings by them.  

I see Serfontein is a multi-dimensional center - not as a battering ram, the term used by Stranski in his commentary during the match.    The one-dimensional coaches must really get away from the idea that a 12 is mainly there as a battering ram - and give the player concerned a freer hand to apply his skills.  Leave tthe battering ram concept to the one-dimensional players like Olivier and Steyn and give this excellent youngster the opportunity to use his obvious talents better.

The worrying factor is that he missed too many tackles against the heavies attacking in the channel.   I think that could be dealt with by coaching - but would nevertheless like him to start as a Springbok at 13 with the option to move him to 12 when De Villiers calls it a day.   In the meantime De Villiers can play an excellent mentoring role for him - easing him into international level rugby.

I know I will be battered myself for sayig what I said here - but nevertheless want to raise this as a topic for further discussion.

 CM - agree 100% re: Serfontein. Just wrote something similar on another thread.

JJ also is impressive enough that we need to find a way to make him a starter in the current Bok setup. I think he could be a very good wing - opening up another spot where he could possibly start.

Oimatey, like the majority of posters on this forum, I think Jan Serfontein looks like a great prospct and he has the abilty to become a Springbok legend, but let's not delude ourselves, he wasn't anything special this weekend. In fact I'd go as far as to say he was crap.

And this is why your opinion on rugby matters holds no gravity in an argument, stupid thought processes like that blurt out. 

 Rooi - I choose to believe (hope!) that this past week was an anomaly but those who propose a Bok backline of Serfontein and JJ would do well to take notice that they were exposed by Ellison and Treeby and would face much more lethal combosi the Test series, especially in the Rugby Championship.

The bulle are stuffing young Jan up. The last thing he should be doing is playing crashball rugby. I hope common sense prevails and he goes off to the Juniour WC . Allow the guy some time to grow up. We dont want a Goosen senario unfolding here. Play him at 13 and allow him to use those superb distribution skills.

Jean was messed about in a similar way. What a waste to use a player like Jean or Jan as a crashballers - crashballing is in any case often a waste of time. Our centers and others so often crash ball and take the ball to ground stopping the momentum of the movement. They should look for more passing/offload opportunities

Would love to have seen Jan and JJ  in the Cheethas side.