JJ....stats for a prospective Bok centre?????

The Sapp keeps picking Engelbrecht at 13.....telling us how anybody can see he is better than Jean. Frankly I think JJ, who looks like a nice WP lad, would be embarrassed by that twaddle. Especially in the light of his latest stats....4 runs, 5 metres gained. And 5 attempted tackles, two missed. I mean we are talking about the Cheetahs here, a side with a porous defence and a set of centres whose names you would find hard to recall after the game. And our Bok centre candidate can find 5 metres and misses 40% of his tackles? Give me a break.

Mozart

Despite all the talk of Dave on the issue of Engelbrecht, he is to my mind a case where a very good young player has been moved from wing to center.   I rate him as a wing - not a center.   A typical example where such an arrangement did not work out was JP Pietersen for the Sharks.   The lines of defence and attack is different for No 13 than is on the wing and that contributed to Engelbrecht's problems in performance.   He was moved to center by the Bulls - because the center they bought - Sadie - did not perform in Super 15.   I would call it a bad move destroying a good youngster's potential. 

Its not about stats Moz, its about the kids talent and the fact that 13 is new to him, the fact that the Bulls see a future for him there as does Meyer. He got very little ball on Sat hence the stats, but when he does get it he looks to breach the defence by trying to step or swerve, its seldom that crash bash stuff some many of our centres entertain these days. This kid has great balance when running, much like Taute. I take it one of his missed tackles was his chase down of le Roux, which is perfect evidence of why stats cant be relied upon, if the reality of that situation is taken into account.

Give me JJ or Taute over Jean anyday at 13 for the Boks - these kids are the real deal, Jean is past it

Mike you are right....this kid is totally at sixes and sevens. In the last match Kolisi beat him through the outside gap. This game he misses 40% of his tackles. He simply has no centre software.

Move him back to wing so we can assess his real potential.

I take it that Kolisi moment has now defined him as a player?????

It is moments like that that define players really - after Lambie slapped Schalk, I took Schalk as a softie!!

Sapp only you could draw an analogy between a guy who was among our best players in two RWCs including a final, and 2004 World Player of the Year.........and a kid who gained 5 metres in 4 runs against the worst defensive team in the S15.

Do you have any inkling of how stupid that is?

No what is stupid is you keeping on about JJ and that Kolisi incident - that does not define JJ and nor does the 5m gained given he only recieved the ball 4 times. That 5m is a load of rubbish anyway as I recall him with ball in hand doing some strange Campo move and that was more than 5m in itself.

This kid has talent, no more or less than Fourie at the same age, same goes for Taute

Engelbrecht beaten by Kolisi.....Olivier beaten by Brussouw. Your specialty seems to be centres who are gassed by fetchers.

Mozart

Did you notice how SAffex has cooled off and did  not answer my comments on Jantjies and Engelbrecht.   I asked himn point-for-point about Saturdays game where he said Jantjies showed class and he did not answer.   Also he has tuned down his comments about Engelbrecht - especially the one about Engelbrecht bein a wing and not a center.   Even when I said that Pietersen's move in the Sharks team from wwing to center was a failure - when he was touting Pietersen as a center.   Seems he is learning the hard way.

Much like your fetcher slapped by a wee 10

Mike get a grip I have commented about Jantjies and JJ till the cows come home. I dont care what anyone on here says, JJ is turning into a useful 13 and will challenge for the Bok spot. He is playing 13 for the Bulls and Meyer has earmarked him as a 13 for these people know what they are talking about - unlike some of the clowns on here.

Our best prospects for 13 are JJ and Taute, with Howard soon to prove he is another. If I was Bok coach Taute or JJ would be my 13, it certainly would not be Jean

Personally I rather like the idea of a Frans/Serfontein combo. I also think JJ has potential at 13 as doesJP.

The real issue is how to maximise the talent.   

ER Dave......the point is 13s are supposed to be faster than fetchers. So when two centres that you have slavishly supported are beaten for pace by fetchers it's a major embarrassment. There is no news in a 10 slipping by a fetcher....it happens all the time.

And Hasbeen what potential have you seen in JJ at 13......perhaps you have visions not given to the rest of us? Can you point to one specific thing. Or have you simply fallen .....hook, line and sinker....for Dave's fattie backs theory?

Saffex

My first cho9ice for 13 when De Villiers goes is Jordaan - have yu forgotten baout him?????

Oh so Moz, are you now telling us Kolisi is faster than JJ, which would then make Kolisi faster than le Roux, a wing for JJ is clearly miles faster than le Roux given how easily he hauled him in. Get real Moz, bloody hell at least keep the debates within the realms of reality - one cant be expected to debate a joke like this

I dont think Jordaan is physical enough for a test 13, he would be ok on the wing. Taute is first choice, followed by JJ

 JJis no 13 - fact!  Quite frankly we are in shitstreet if Jean suddenly goes.  There are potentials, but with his experience and organising skills it will be difficult to replace the complete package.

Luna, given your wonderful insight - what do you base your call on that JJ is no 13.

Wow one would swear Jean was some genius at 13 - he had a solid to good game at 13 in the first test and then did squat for the next 2.

Taute, JJ, Jordaan, JP and Howard are all better bets at 13 than Jean

Saffex

Jordaan has been playing in Super 16 and has been very good in that position.   Whether you like it or not - the initial statement by you was that Pietersen should play at 13 - where he has failed when he played in that position for the Sharks.   He was in fact replaced by Jordaan and afterwards proved again his ability as a wing.

Now you are onto Taute - who started off playing - with distinction as a full back.    He was recycled to 13 and since themn has shown very little.    Engelbrecht was bought by the Bulls as a wing - but after the poor showing of their preferred center (Sadie) he was brought in to 13.

You argued that Taute started playing in school as a 13 - but that means squad.   In school Spies was a wing and Etzebeth also played in the backline.   Spie moved to no 8 - but since he has been no8 for the Bulls - he has shown nothing for 70 minutes in any given game and despite his physique he is no real asset in that position.    The only player that made the Grade in moving to another position was Etzebeth.

I do not like recycled players that play outside of their positions that they started off their adult playing career in.    It is rarely successful as is evidenced by the examples quoted,   I think thy will destroy Engelbrecht's potential as a top class wing by moving him to 13.

Now back to Jordaan .  You now say this guy that has made progress by leaps and bounds for the Sharks and in the Junior WC - is too small to play at 13.   Yet you want to play a smaller gu6y - with serious deficiencies (Jantjies) at 10.   There is no consistency in what you mentioned in you getting Jordaan out of his normal playing poisition.

Really - as a friend I admire many of your comments - but in some cases you are wrong - but never willing to admit it   

 @Mike, I do not necessarily with Saffex about Taute, but your view on "recycled players outside of their positions........................." is in itself a broad statement. There are many examples of players who have successfully moved around, or has made switches in positions. Some of them even at international level. Percy Montgommery, Habana, JDV, Willem Alberts, Gerrie Sonnekus (many moons ago). Also John Smit, and I am not referring to the mucking around in the latter part of his career, by PDV and Plumtree. I am talking at the beginning of his career when Jake White switched him from prop to hooker. Johan Heunis started off at the wing. He ended up successfully replacing Naas at flyhalf when he went off to Dallas. Lionel Mapoe was a wing who is playing centre nowadays. Derrick Kuun from flank to hooker.

 Hi Mike, just a quick note on Etzebeth switching from the bacline to the forwards. I won't consider him a successfull switch as it happened when he was still at school. That don't count. Casue you still finding your place. 

Snapster is being inconsistent given his benchmark of 90 kg. Jordaan currently weighs 94 kg and will bulk up in time to at least 98/100kg I would think.

Secondly the snapster has clearly not noted how very well Jordaan has played at 13 for the sharkies. Jordaan is already a very good center but given his pace could aslo play wing (JP has played very well at 13 and given his lack of pace is more suited there than wing).

To me the future may well be Frans Steyn at 12 and Jan Serfontein (97kg and heading to over 100kg) at 13. Time will tell.

Beenkop, I know his weight is down as 94kg on the Sharks site, but the official Baby Bok stats had him at 90kg. Just by looking at him, he looks more like 90 than 94.

I think he is a damn fine prospect, but just question whether he will be up to it as a 13 at test level - time will tell. There is no doubting his talent. He just looks like a smallish guy with little room to grow physically

Mike what I find irritating trying to debate with you, is that you dont listen. How many more times must I tell you that Taute played 13 all through school and for 2 years with the Baby Boks, how does that make him a retreaded 15 huh, particularly since he is playing 13 for the Lions right now.

If you knew what you were talking about you would realise that Taute has been good at 13 for bottom of the table Lions, he is 4th on the list after 15 rounds for line breaks and 7th on the list for metres gained. You see Mike the problem with you is you watch another game, not the game I watch.

Much like JP at 13, he was damn good there, so much so that at one point Plumtree claimed he was SA's best 13. Jordaan is a 13 and given he was doing so well in the Vodacom Cup, it made sense to bring him into the Sharks S15 side as the 13 and move JP back to wing. This had stuff all to do with JP's performance at 13 and everything to do with logic.

JJ has been very good at 13 for the Bulls and Meyer sees him there for the Boks. My choice of 13's for the Boks in order is Taute, JJ, Jordaan and Howard. Howard is the unknown and could easily jump a few places once he gets game time at Super level

 Just on a point of interest then Saf, You don't rate Small Smith? As Howard is above in the pecking order.

I rate Small-Smith, but Howard is far better. I think Small-Smith might struggle to make an impression at a higher level - again the physicality thing. He needs to bulk up and not by much given he is 90kg

 Interesting. As vision wise i see him as superior to all your candidates. He will get bigger, more naturally though as he is already 90 that should be big enough for you. However i don't see him as the type of centre that will run over guys. He has pace, vision, and runs the correct lines. but he is still young and potential wise i think better than all the ones you have mentioned, even potentially better than Jordaan. just my 2 cents. Won't expect you to agree though. That however does not make him the the be all and nothing else. I was just very shocked that you didn't even mention him. As well as tha fact that you Rate Both JJ and Howard better. Jordaan and Taute i can still understand yes, And i won't argue much if you rate them better, as their is validity in that argument, however Howard and JJ? Don't really agree much there.

I have not seen that much of Small-Smith, what he has shown me is that he has pace. My concern is that at the higher levels, you need to be able to impose yourself physically as well for space is at a premium and you are hardly ever afforded the space to beat your man with a step/swerve or on the outside. You need to be able to commit physically and offload - I cant see SS being able to do this, he is more in the de Jongh mould as a 13.

Yes JJ is def better than SS as JJ has already proved himself at S15 level. As for Howard, I think this kid is the real deal and injury stood in his way during the Junior Champs. Meyer must think highly of him given he was invited to the Bok training camps.

My prediction is that Howard will make more of an impression at the higher levels than SS will. I am not sure SS will play Super rugby given the Bulls have Sadie, Venter, JJ, Serfontein and Swanepoel in their ranks.

 Well valid Argument comeing from the fact that i agree i don't see Small SMith getting much game tim with the quality young cetres the Bulls do have at their Disposal. I don't however think that JJ is better. SS as you refer to him, given the chance i think will prove to be a better option. but it is all speculative at this stage.

Yep, if I was SS, I'd bulk up as a priority

JJ with all due respect has not set the world alight so i dont tink we can say anything about him being the future no 13. he does have the size for it but lacks is many areas. but i think in about 2 years time he might be decent pick

the bulls must just develop these young backline players to create space for themselves.

"you are hardly ever afforded the space to beat your man with a step/swerve or on the outside"......you say Sapp?  Unless of course you are Kolisi and you are being marked by JJ Engelbrecht?

Your problem is your algorithm is 75 % weight and 25 % pace. You predict success based on the measuring tape. But greats like O Driscoll at 13 had rugby nous. Instant instincts that had them making the right decisions. Engelbrecht and Taute haven't demonstrated that gift.....they blunder along in a physical kind of way. No spark, no sense of the instant opportunity.....robotic.

I posted JJ's stats against the Cheetahs, here are his stats against the Stormers:

You can't be serious, 5 metres in 6 runs. There is nothing here.....and you keep bleating about him having proved himself at S15 level. How? Doing what?

Given that Frans is still young and will command the 12 jersey for some time why cant Serfontien at 97 kg play 13. Serfontein looks to have huge potential. Dont tell me he cant move from 12 to 13.

Snapster I think the official sharks website is probably more relaible than the once off baby Boks outfit.

It is funny to think wee Keegan is shown on the sharks website at 94 kg - same as Jordaan. But there  are some nutters who still want him in the Boks!!!!!!

I am tipping Small Smith to make it. This boy is class - a connoiseurs center - brainy and with vision as Ek pointed out.

No Moz its called reality - for a start let me say this for the last time, JJ is not defined as a player because he missed Kolisi, much like Schalk is not defined by being slapped by Lambie.

As for size, my source of reference is the modern day test centre, wing and fullback - how many more times must I tell you that you dont get less than 90kg players playing these positions at test level - there is a reason for this - its the space thing and the need to impose yourself physically - are you incapable of grasping this obvious fact? O'Driscoll was the ultimate 13 - silky skills, pace and size (95kg).

As for JJ and Taute being robotic - bullshit - both are physical, skilful players who use the step and swerve to beat or challenge defences......why on earth would these guys be earmarked as future Boks if they were as ordinary as you make them out to be. Hell Moz you used to bang on about the useless Adi and then expect me to take your judgement of JJ and Taute seriously - I'll stick with what their coaches and the National coach sees in them, for they see what I do.

JJ and Taute WILL play for the Boks. They are better prospects than Fourie, Snyman or Joubert were at the same age

" JJ and Taute WILL play for the Boks" They most probably will yes but both at 13? 

Yes Ek for modern test sides play with two 13's!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Let me do a summary of the views  expressed above - and hope to do so objectively.   Saffex is punting Engelbrecht and Taute as no 13's - with some cinclination also towards Howard - after intially claiming that position fro JP Pietersen.    Mozart deoes not think Taute and Engelbrecht is up to that.

I favour Jordaan as a future top class player in that position based on provn abiility and went so far as to say that Pietersen' is a wing - and his realtive harmless display as 13 (when he was trid out in that position by the Sharks) proved that he is the real deal as a wing.

Other players gaining support as no 13 is Serfontein and Small-Smith mentioned by Beeno and Ek.

In essence I think that everyone has a point here and that the competition to succeed De Villiers is strong and healthy.  By the way - maybe like Saffex said I am too conservative - or maybe I am influenced by the fact that the top two wings ever to play for South Africa, was Jannie Engelbrecht and Carel Du Plessis. 

Insofar as performance is concerned - I actually think the merit order for selection as future Springbok Center to partner Francois Steyn - is as follows:-

1     Serfontein

2    Jordaan

3    Taute

4    Small-Smith

5    Howard

6    Engelbrecht

We have seen ample evidence of Serfontein in the Junior WC.   The try he scored and his defence was classic and he has no par in SA at present.    Jordaan - before he was injured was one of the best backline players in the Junior WC and has played with distinction on Super 15 level.   Taute played on Super 15 level and did well - despite the poor service he got from the inside backs - and despite the fact that the performance of the Lions in Super 15 was a joke in bad taste.    Small-Smith probably has the best rugby brain of the lot and has speed.   Exposure on Super 15 level would prove his abilities on that level.    Howard was poor in the Junior Cup match against the Irish and played extremely well in the only other game he played in.   Meyer thinks highly of him - and he may yet end up on top of the list to succeed De Villiers.   That leaves me with Engelbrecht - I would say a very good player, but maybe more suited to wing. where compeition for future Springbok selection may be less.

In the meantime De Villiers - unless injured - will be around for the next 18 months at least.   He is the present Bok captain and was excellent in the tests against the Lions.   He showed new vigour in the Super 15 match subsequently and even most people on this Board will not support his immediate replacement.  

Mike for a start Howard was not poor in the game against Ireland for you told us Serfontein was poor in that game as well. Well neither were poor, they both did what they had to do and that was take the ball up in terrible weather conditions. I am not going to go through the merits of each player as I rate them all and any one of them could take over from Jean right now. I for a start would not be playing Jean at 13, Taute would be my choice.

My order of 13's is Taute, JJ, Howard, Jordaan, Sadie, Dries Swanepoel, JP du Plessis, Small-Smith.........Jan Serfontein is a 12, but given Frans is entrenched at 12, Serfontein moving to 13 seems logical and if that is the way forward then he would be in my top 3 candidates.

There are 2 Baby Boks I would have on my Bok bench now and that is Serfontein and Steph du Toit, with someone like Kitshoff pushing. Of course Goosen would be my starting 10

Saffex

There are more points of agreement between what we said between ourselves ,   The same names appear in our summary - but in a different order.    I am in full agreement about your suggestion for putting Serforntein and Stephh Du Toit on the bench..   Would support that strongly.

Now it is interesting to note that Du Toit will be playing for the Sharks tomorrow at lock against Kruger and Van der Merwe - would be very interesting to see how he performs.   Lets wiat and see.

Goosen has another 2 months off - and I agree that we need a new flyhalf with a different brand of play.   Depending on how Hougaard play over the enxt six months - we could have a deadly backline comprising of Lambie, Pietersen, Habana, Serfontein, Steyn, Goosen and Hougaard.   If Hougaard does not shape up I would say Pienaar would add value.

However, Meyer will not leave out De Villiers for the nert 18 months - unless he gets injured - but the backline mentioned could be the core for the next WC.

By the way I forgot to add about Howards performance.   Maybe I expected too much of him - but he and Serfontein had to suffer in the Ireland game because of an atrocious display by Griessel and Jantjies.   I have never seen a worse scrummy and fly half display than I saw tthat day.   Would have accounted for the fact that our centers could not function that day.