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FORUM / RUGBY /  Kaplan says increase of cheating by New Zealand needs to be stamped out.

Kaplan says increase of cheating by New Zealand needs to be stamped out.

Started by sharkbok31 REPLIES471 VIEWS· 21 May 2014, 23:34
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
21 May 2014, 23:34
#1
21 May 2014, 23:34#1
Brenden Nel, SuperSportCape Town - Top retired referee Jonathan Kaplan has called on referees to stamp out the illegal tactic of holding players back in rugby games.

The supersporrt.com website reports that much of the attention these past few days has been focused on the red card given to Sharks flanker Jean Deysel and his three week ban for making contact with the face of a Crusaders player out of frustration as his leg was being held.

But there has been little attention to the fact that the tactic of illegally tackling players way from the ruck, or holding onto them is the problem that often causes the frustration for players and causes them to lash out.

While not trying to justify Deysel’s actions, there is an increasing tendency for teams in Super Rugby – particularly those from New Zealand – to use the tactic of holding players back, or use up the space in front of the ball, allowing the ball carrier to slip in behind. 

It does seem to be an Australasian tendency that is slowly increasing in Super Rugby this year.

Deysel’s act was both reckless and wrong, and he was rightly red-carded by referee Rohan Hoffmann. 

He can also be very lucky his three week sentence was as light as it was, with SANZAR’s sanction being seen as very lenient for what was a serious offence

Kaplan has called for referees to take "immediate action" including the immediate issuing of cards for this specific infringement and calls the tactic "the biggest issue in Southern Hemisphere rugby at the moment."

Kaplan said that it may have been difficult for referees to pick it up in the beginning, but it has slowly become worse over the past few years.


"Certainly a few years ago when it reared its ugly head, it was very difficult for referees to pick up because it hadn’t been such a predominant issue in the game as it has become. 

"I’m not sure that a lot of coaching is being put into it, and I’m not sure that the correct sanction is being applied to the transgressor. If the punishment does not fit the crime, then obviously teams will carry on doing it," he said.

“If they are getting away with it and continuing to do it, it sends out a clear message that it is worthwhile to persist with this type of behaviour, because referees are not dealing with this issue effectively.”

Kaplan, who still holds the record for the most Test matches by a referee, gave two quick examples of how the tactic was being employed, saying it has a profound influence on the game.

"In an earlier game this season, Nizaam Carr was pinned against the posts for a couple of seconds by a Reds player, and when he finally let him go, the post he was supposed to be defending was pretty much a vacuum and the Reds scored a try under the posts, with nothing done about it. 

"Similarly in the game between the Stormers and Crusaders, and no surprise that it is the same team, Jean de Villiers – who I rate as an exceptional captain – was heard talking to the referee, incidentally the same referee Rohan Hoffman, about what the referee wants him to do because his players are being continually held back.

"There is no question that Hoffman dealt with one instance expertly where Schalk Burger was held back but there were numerous others in the game that were missed. 

"That is the real issue. 

"It is not the one or two that are effectively dealt with, it is those missed that are encouraging teams to persist with the behaviour.

"He is a markedly improved referee, but in this particular game he has missed them and missed them repeatedly. 

"Sometimes these type of tactics have a profound influence on the results of matches.”

Kaplan says therefore referees need to get tough and a yellow card is the only way to go for this “cynical” tactic.

"What I advocate is a yellow card. It is a cynical infringement which doesn’t need a warning, it actually needs a card – it needs a yellow card, and an immediate yellow card.

"If teams see that you are doing it and they are going to be carded, I can almost guarantee they will stop doing it. 

"It is very important to note that, it is a cynical infringement which falls under foul play which does not need a warning.

"Referees are too placating, they are too understanding in respect of this aspect of the game, and they need to ratchet up their sanction a whole lot better than it is at the moment. 

"Whether that requires better coaching or a better understanding of what is at play, that is a moot point.

"But, for sure the sanction needs to be upgraded."

"These comments are pointing out something that is becoming a big issue in the modern game, particularly in the Southern Hemisphere, particularly in Super Rugby and it needs to be eradicated immediately. 

"We cannot wait for next season, it needs to be done now, and the reality is that it has been going on for a few years now and it is becoming progressively worse.

"Either the refs need to be taken to task or they need to be given ammunition to sanction the behaviour in a different way so that it doesn’t persist.


"I say the same thing every week.

"It is the biggest issue in Southern Hemisphere rugby at the moment.

"I am hopeful that it will be sorted soon."

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
21 May 2014, 23:36
#2
21 May 2014, 23:36#2
Holding back players is a major issue, but also a big issue is how the New Zealand players stand in front of the ruck. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2014, 00:44
#3
22 May 2014, 00:44#3
This issue seems to be part of the coaching of certain teams and that is unacceptable, Kaplan is right - an immediate yellow-carded card is needed.  A player who has done it must be yellow-carded carded immediately - even if the other player reacted and is carded like was the case of Deysel.  
If that action was taken against Crotty virtually in the first minute of the Crusaders game - it would not have been repeated 4 times by the Crusaders players on that game.   No excuse - even if a try is scored despite the interference. 
I hope this issue is going to be addressed strictly in future.       
RU
RugganutClub Pro183 posts
22 May 2014, 18:02
#4
22 May 2014, 18:02#4
 A week ago i posted on this site, what i consider cheating. 
It is the taking out of players around the fringes of rucks and mauls who are not engaged in play. This is a yellow card offence. 
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
22 May 2014, 20:52
#5
22 May 2014, 20:52#5
Pot, kettle, black!! 
RU
RugganutClub Pro183 posts
22 May 2014, 21:30
#6
22 May 2014, 21:30#6
 Indeed, very black. This is all the Franks brothers do. 
Tackling a player when they are not expecting it as they are not engaged in play leads to a lot of injuries and is really a cowardice act. 
Picture: A player is standing maybe 1-2 meters from the ruck or mall, assessing how to enter the maul and deliver the best entry. They are looking at the maul and not the fringe of the maul. Bang, fat Franks takes them out. No penalty or anything as the ref is including them as if they were in play.
This is exactly the same as when a backline player is taken out without the ball and is mostly penalized.
It is so bad now that SA and Aussie player just accept it as their frustrations have just fallen of deaf ears. Take out a Kiwi player and you will be sin binned or red carded. This is blatant cheating by the Kiwi coaches as the refs have let them get away with this which has the IRB blessing.
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
22 May 2014, 21:36
#7
22 May 2014, 21:36#7
Oh, the poor SA & Oz players. It's all so unfair!!  
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
22 May 2014, 21:49
#8
22 May 2014, 21:49#8
 Kaplan should get invited to a few Bok booze- ups to give speeches now, lol
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
22 May 2014, 21:50
#9
22 May 2014, 21:50#9
This from the ref who illegaly let play go on 4 extra minutes after full time with the ball finding touch twice in those 4 minutes allowing John Eales to kick a penalty and handing over the bledisloe cup to the Wallabies? Kaplan is the 2nd best referree in the world after Joubert of course but his comments paint a bad picture given the above history.
Too funny our SAFER friends are trying to pull the wool over every ones eyes when their hand is well and truely caught in the cookie jar. That holding back does not warrant a deliberate foot in the mouth END OF STORY otherwise they'd be broken teeth at every ruck from both sides - watch McCaw get illegaly held down or tackled away from the ball by the Sharks players during the course of the ENTIRE GAME and you'll know what I mean. Hakwa again gently showing the Safer brethren the errors of their dark hearts 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
22 May 2014, 22:07
#10
22 May 2014, 22:07#10
 Well said Kaplan you are only saying what so many have already noticed. Nz are cheating again and showing they have no rugby ethics - again.
We need more men like Kaplan to stand up and call these cheats out. What is SARFU doing about it?? Some action fast please.
The fact is SARFU and other governing bodies in other countries and the IRB need seriously to keep an eye on NZ and even Oz . They are criminally inclined and even if this is stamped out will look for another way to get an unfair advantage.Last year we had journalist in various parts of the world commenting on nz cheating. Its becomeing a total farce. Something has to be done about it.
Hacked waaaugh my good friend nobody has to hold back old man mccheat he aint going nowhere fast. Bwahhahahahahahaha
Kaplan has nailed you oaks fair and square. You are the worst offenders. Red zone infringements by nz treams are legendary.
Beeno looking to help the kbbs up the ethics mountain they face.Charming rogues the are. 



CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 May 2014, 23:13
#11
22 May 2014, 23:13#11
 
Typical kiwis ... bitching and moaning when their coached cheating plays are exposed .... but cry like little babies when a legit tackle hits one of their brittle players.

Not sure I've come across such a bunch of girlie boys.

Pussies the lot of them.

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
22 May 2014, 23:51
#12
22 May 2014, 23:51#12
 no really Cleancut, its more manly to stomp on a defenseless mans face when they are on the ground - history does show you have a habit of hitting defenseless people on the ground ala Greyling vs McCaw 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 May 2014, 01:50
#13
23 May 2014, 01:50#13
Hakwa, not many (if any) has defended Deysel stomping on the player. The criticism is about the illegal play and/or policing at the rucks and mauls. Say what you like, Kaplan is 100% correct. Those infringements are not policed properly. The law is clear:

Some of the requirements for legal  play at the breakdown:
You have to be onside when you join the rucks/mauls.
You have to bind onto a team-mate/opponent in joining the ruck/maul.
You have to be on your feet when you play the ball.
The tackler has to release the tackled player first.
The tackled player then has to release the ball.
You are not allowed to attack an opposing player who is not near the ball, i.e. part of the ruck/maul.

You are still pissing about Greyling's hit on McCaw. Something that everybody on this board condemned and something that he was duly sanctioned for. You seem to negate any foul play by any NZ player. Many that went totally unpunished. Every time a NZ player gets into trouble, the first thing that we hear is how  squeaky clean the player is and how out of character the transgression is. A year or so ago Kevin Mealamu was in trouble and all we heard was what a gentle guy he really is. Meanwhile,back  at the ranch, there are numerous clips about his shit.

One of the most hilarious is the NZ guys always pissing about Bakkies' head-but on Cowan and saying that we have condoned it, which is not true  at all. Coincidently, he also retaliated after being held back. In any case, how is Bakkies' head-but any different from this Mealamu beauty:

 

Chips........ shoulders......
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
23 May 2014, 02:47
#14
23 May 2014, 02:47#14
 As always, saffas justifying their defeats or their thuggery, as in this case.

There's their usual and often-sought trick of the NZ players cheating in the rucks. Here McCaw deserves a special mention, he's the dirtiest of the cheaters and even worst player, he doesn't deserve to live.
Then, there's the also very often-sought trick of the NZ bent refs with all the variations of world level conspiracies.
An now here we have the brand new tale: only the NZ players hod back. And of course something must be adressed against them (why not an inmediate red card, eh?) and only against them because they are coached and trained to do so.
Instead the SA players are trained to act like saints on the field and they perfectly apply what they learn. They can from time to time hold back rival players but never with the premeditation the NZers do.

Ah, and the NZers also stand in front of the rucks. inmediate red card also for them!!!!!
Don't forget also that NZers tackle players when they are not expecting it as they are not engaged in play. Something more?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2014, 02:59
#15
23 May 2014, 02:59#15
 ABasquefan
I think this is becoming way off the mark in discussion.  In reality the key issue is not in justifying dirty and dangerous play - but the fact that there are elements of the game where professional fouls occur and those fouls are practiced as a matter of course by some teams in the hope that the referees will not punish offenders.
Nobody in his right mind would defend dangerous and dirty play - and I have severely criticized players like Greyling, Deysel and Nonu in the past.   
So lets get back to reality - do you agree that illegal professional fouls should be dealt with harshly by the referees should they occur during matches irrespective of which teams are involved?
The problem also centers around especially the Crusaders.  After the blatant case of Burger - the Crusaders admitted they do - but the Chiefs are even worse.   So why does it happen in those two teams - is it that they are coached to do that in the hope that the opposing players will react negatively and get punished, while they get away with it?      
  


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
23 May 2014, 03:53
#16
23 May 2014, 03:53#16
 you are repeating your arguments: only the NZ teams (saders and chiefs) hold back and that's because they are coached to do so.
This is the most childish argument one can imagine.
Saders and chiefs hold in the same way as other teams do. Check last saturday's match and count how many times saders players are hold, specially McCaw .
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
23 May 2014, 04:00
#17
23 May 2014, 04:00#17
 Even admitting (which I don't do) that saders and chiefs players are the only ones that hold, the solution is very clear: apply the current rules to ALL the teams.
But never stomping faces as you all are justifying
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
23 May 2014, 04:12
#18
23 May 2014, 04:12#18
We should introduce smileys on this board for eye gouging, stomping, punching-  and the New Zealand fans can have smileys for pulling back, playing the ball on the ground and being in an offside position.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2014, 05:51
#19
23 May 2014, 05:51#19
 ABasquefan
Off the mark again - nobody wants laws to be applied only to certain teams - wherever it happens the law should be applied.  The idea that the Crusaders are especially the guilty party is based on the fact that they are blatant in doing it.   That was evident in the Crusaders game against the Stormers - but also in the game last Saturday.   That being said - if it indeed is so the coaches must also clean up their a ct.     
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
23 May 2014, 06:54
#20
23 May 2014, 06:54#20
  mike,
"The idea that the Crusaders are especially the guilty party is based on the fact that they are blatant in doing it".

you are again repeating arguments:
The crusaders are guilty because they are blatant guilty?
The only fact here is that you're guided by your subjective appreciation and nothing more. I challenge you to re-watch last saturday's or another saders' game and count the holdings.
you'll see that the saders hold the same way their opponents do
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
23 May 2014, 07:19
#21
23 May 2014, 07:19#21

 This is out rages!!!Moola you the hugest girl about this and the rest of Nzl can fall in behind this primadona.

 

You are all just upset because despite the red card,your team lost.

 

And just food for thought,if this is not coached to players then where do they learn this behavior ?It has to come from some where.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
23 May 2014, 07:36
#22
23 May 2014, 07:36#22
Most of the SA posters on this site have forgotten how to enjoy a win. Not much in the way of talking about how well the various sharks players performed, the win against impossible odds....
You have shown you are all beeno's slaves & bowed down to his superior rugby knowledge & intelligence. Kiwi posters are not as easily fooled  
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
23 May 2014, 09:30
#23
23 May 2014, 09:30#23
  JW...what!?!?!?!?
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 May 2014, 09:54
#24
23 May 2014, 09:54#24
i dont have access to my old laptop which had a ton of highlighted situations of saffa players holding back others, but from the top of my head,,,

jean cook vs the rebels
holding onto fuglistaller who retaliates and gets yellow carded

le roux vs blues
ruck situation. seen holding onto hickey who was trying to get back into line

deon fourie vs waratahs
seen holding onto potgieter in a ruck when the ball was long gone.


these arent isolated incidents from saffa players, their were plenty more during all those games, but these are the ones of the top of my head.

i will retrieve info which was time stamped in great detail which shows saffa players holding plenty of players back.
but i cant wait for this weekend, cos my sharingan sees all, and i will be consuming a lot of chakra as i mangekyou every move made.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
23 May 2014, 09:55
#25
23 May 2014, 09:55#25
"This is out rages!!!"
Waaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!
Just how stupid is this ForeverArsehole idiot? Hmmmm . . . I'd say "out rages lea" stupid!
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
23 May 2014, 10:03
#26
23 May 2014, 10:03#26
  Am I supposed to feel offended by that brain fart Rooinek!?!?
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
23 May 2014, 19:46
#27
23 May 2014, 19:46#27
Hi Aridzonawannabearmyboy, it's me the hugest girl here!Wake up you wanker, rugby players have been holding back the opposition for 100 years! Have you just found this out?  
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 May 2014, 21:55
#28
23 May 2014, 21:55#28
The Dark art of going beyond the ruck to occupy space was perfected by Eddie Jones at the Brumbies and then translated to the Wallabies and then indirectly onto the Boks when he co-coached with Snake I mean Joke (this autocorrect is a nuisance) White. The Brumbies and Wallabies play back then was based on American Football with alof of front players occupying space infront of the ball carrier or ruck awaiting the next ruck and also causing obstruction to would be defenders. It was done really fast. Then the evolution of tackling key players would are not really involved in the ruck but about to be involved and holding them down preventing them from being involved - MOST of the Sharks misdemeanors concerning McCaw involve this type of play. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2014, 22:17
#29
23 May 2014, 22:17#29
 Why all this wangling - it really is not necessary.   I think there are two issues here - the one emphaized by the NZ supporters and the other one by virtually everybody else.
The Dangerous Play - Stomping Issue
I firmly believe that this aspect in play is totally unacceptable and that anybody found guilty should be dealt with severely and in line with judicial rules governing such play. 
I consequently propose that everyone on this Board signs up and agree with me on that issue.
Professional Fouls
This issue is very serious.   It is not only Kaplan that is unhappy about this - but th issue was also raised on Boots % All last night.   It is clear that there are two issues here, namely -
*   efforts to prevent and take players out of play illegally - especially serious in the red zone; and 
*   in mauls in the red zone taking players out and driving them back so as to open up gaps in defense for other players to utilize.  
This may be acceptable in American Football - but basically it is illegal and represents a serious breach in rugby law and ethical play.
In this case the divide is that some members feel that the above results from systematic coaching by the New Zealand sides and others simply ignore the problem. 
Whatever it is I propose that members subscribe to the following :-
*   That if there are indeed coaching to achieve positive results for teams through the above methods as a result, such coaching should be condemned as promoting unacceptable professional fouls; and 
*   That referees should watch out for professional fouls of the relevant nature and that they should punish the players strictly if such cases occur.    Penalties are not enough.   In the first case it happened a yellow card should be issued - in the second or subsequent cases the team as a whole should be punished through a red card of the player guilty of that type of offence.    
That wo uld have a dual advantage - it will discourage players from using illegal means to get an undue advantage and it will simultaneously force coaches to act strictly against such practices.
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
24 May 2014, 03:23
#30
24 May 2014, 03:23#30
I totally agree Mike, also this illegal hand in EVERY ruck tactic by every Sharks across the park has to stop.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2014, 03:33
#31
24 May 2014, 03:33#31
 hakwa
I did notice that the ref saw it and carded both Du Plessis and Steyn fo r it.   To my mind the second card should have been a red.   
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
24 May 2014, 04:19
#32
24 May 2014, 04:19#32
The yellow cards the Sharks recieved were deserved.
One concern I have is that New Zealand teams get less yellow cards for commiting the same offences.
The Sharks recieved 2 penalties for the Bulls playing players off the ball. If a South African team had done this in tour, would we have gotten a yellow card for commitin the same offence twice?



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