a few of our board authorities just how wrong they are about these two players - hardly average players with very little to offer!!!! I say no more - maybe said authorities should be a little more positive about our players and show alot more faith in them. Both had outstanding games, showing good touches to score or set up tries
Kirchner has always been our best attacking fullback. I still have the stats from 2010 to 2011 that show Kirchner very strong on attack. He only had a couple of iffy moments on defence.
The point is not whether they are effective in the Super 15 against the lesser teams. The point is, why has Olivier scored one try in 35 odd tests......and why can't Kirchner even get his foot on the ball when things get tough.
Olivier is a slow plodder, ready to be plucked by any nimble player....eg when the Quaalude ran right round him , starting about 5 metres on his inside. Slow as treacle.
And my abiding memory of Kirchner is Dagg whipping past him with literally no space to go through. Give me Joe Pietersen any day.....at least the lad can tackle as he showed yesterday with Mvovo in space.
Kirchner HAS performed well in bad circumstances.
Nonsense Kirchner has been a flop in TN tests. He can't kick and tackle at the standard expected of a Bok fullback. The fact is both Olivier and Kirchner have been given many Bok chances.....they weren't absent in the RWC because they succeeded. Guys who start out as failures.....stay failures.
Kirch's biggest problem is that he blows hot and cold too often.
He does like to attack, but he doesn't have the pace to back it up.
He is depenable at best.
A decent backup fullback.
For attacking skill, look no further than J Taute. The man is a living wrecking ball from the back,
He is by no means the finished product. Give him another 2 years to develop properly before blooding him. At the moment he makes too many fundamental mistakes and needs to iron up on his decision making.
But as for solid defense and silky running, he is the man!
Don't write off Fransie or Lambie either. But Lambie also doesnt have that electrifying pace, but he does have vision and is mature way beyond his years.
You know the answer Moz. Olivier has never been the incumbent, he has always fed off test bits thrown his way. Has he ever had an extended run at 12 for the Boks? No, he has always played second fiddle to Jean and rightly so. He has played many of his tests out of position.
My point about his performance on Sat was not so much about who he was playing against but more about the fact that he is much more than you make him out to be. He has pace and its an insult to my intelligence or any other rugby followers if you expect us to believe that Olivier is any slower than Jean, Frans or Bosman - no way in hell. The lad also showed a good swerve and step, something he has always had. Without doubt he has been our best back-up to Jean and Frans at 12, no questions asked.
As for Kirchner, the same applies - the lad is a quality runner and has not failed at test level at all, much like Flip, Spies, Watson and the likes never failed at test level
Incorrect, nothing wrong at all with Kirchner's pace! He is very slick and quick on attack. Does one not recall the multiple times he tore through New Zealand in 2010? One of which had a mix-up with the support runners going the wrong way. He is by far our best attacking fullback. I rate Lambie well as a 15, but he is not an out-and-out attacker. Between him and Aplon, as well as Joe Pietersen, we are well served with stable options, but Kirchner offers some real bite that should not be ignored!
As for Olivier. It is undeniable that he has not made the most of his opportunities, though he was without question solid on the 2010 EOYT, it is equally so that he has never been backed or given an extended run in one position. Most of his tests were in 2006 then 2007; both years being when he was still very fresh. From 2009 onwards he surpassed the languid Jean and should have been directly beneath Frans. That utterly useless garbage like Adi Jacobs could receive regular game time for the Boks on the back of nothing at any level is actually quite disgusting.
der for once I agree with you 100% - well said
Shame poor Olivier he has been given 35 chances in a Bok jersey to do anything useful......sadly that was unfair, he should have got more.
Your mate Adi Jacobs had 37! And he had consistant game time.
Nope Adi played in the same number of tests....34....and scored 7 times as many tries as Wynaand. In fact he was was far more succesful in 2008 than Olivier has ever been for the Boks, making many pundits 2008 TN team.
His form dropped off after that, and I had no problem admitting that. Unlike you and the Sappster, who just can't admit Olivier is a total flop in tests. The low point coming when he had a big hand in 3 Lions tries in the third test.
Adi Jacobs was one of the biggest reasons why the Boks floundered. His form never dropped, it flatlined from birth. Just a pitty for him that the British Lions based an entire strategy on exploiting him. You can froth at the mouth all you like, to date Olivier has never been such a liability that he alone has nearly brought down a Bok side firing in all other areas. He has also never been dragged 10metres backwards leaving his team-mates frantically trying to cover for him. No, Adi is the worst centre the Boks have ever fielded. Jokes are made of Jorrie Muller, but Adi is the lowest point. And nobody outside of South Africa rated Adi Jacobs. After the 2008 TNs the only centres being highly praised were Nonu and Smith. We were the laughing stock. I'll credit only two of Jacobs tries as being of any effort to himself; that in the second Aussie loss of 2008, but even then, his performance elsewhere was woeful. Olivier has been robbed of greater opportunity for a quota. A far better centre than Adi ever could have been.
i rate Olivier and Kirchner both as safe/averange selections.
both are reasonably reliable however not quality enough to be Boks.. they should both be considered as your back up players (not impact players off the bench) too one dimensional - specifically Olivier.
if you are going to settle on Olivier and Kirchner as your Boks, you are never going to have a creative backline and isnt that what we are all looking for now under Meyer (the new Bok gameplan)
re. Adi vs Olivier, if i was coach i would always go for Olivier (safe option) but if i actually wanted to win games and score tries i would look elswere: 15 - Lambie, Frans, Aplon, J.Pietersen / 12 - Jean, Frans, Lambie, Olivier
"Just a pitty for him that the British Lions based an entire strategy on exploiting him. " Funny that given Adi played in the two tests we won. Apparently that strategy didn't work. I repeat in 2008 he was probably the best 13 in the TN....he certainly had the best stats. Now there's a fact you can reseach Aristo Cat. Prove me wrong if you can.
That year aside I agree with Jean. When you play Olivier and Kirchner.....you know for a certainty that they are inferior to their Aussie and NZ counterparts. At one time Giteau regularly abused poor Wynand.
I don't need to research that, I already exposed that the day after both games! In the first Lions test they ran hard at Adi every chance they had and he folded. We dominated every facet of play, but the hapless Adi caved in. When Jean was subbed and Adi moved to 12 it was a strain to defend in that final ten minutes. I recall Adi's desperately poor tackle on Jenkins in our 22; falling to ground and clasping his ankles and Jenkins had all the time in the world to offload. In the second test we conceded a crucial try as Habana had to cut in to cover for Adi. The difference Fourie made when he came on was immense as it was instant.
Now onto the 09 Tri-Nations. I do not have stats at hand, but I have the games at hand. I already went through them on the old SARugby board and it was emphatically proven that Adi was a liability. I find it mildly amusing that the two most praised players for the Boks that year, Adi and Jantjes, were in fact two of the worst players outright. As stated previously, nobody outside of South Africa thought much of Adi in 2008. Lynagh and Fitzpatrick rated him as about the 5th best centre in SA in the build-up to the Welsh game on the EOYT that year. It was even stated that te EOYT was his opportunity to repay Peter's faith in him! No, the only people who ever rated Adi were racists like Ally and the anti-Fourie brigade, of which you are chairman and solitary member.
Lot's of hot air Aristo....so Jacobs try from 40 metres out against the Poms in 2008, where he cut them to shreds, was not up to him either? Here's the link to remind you.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ouKMt4wqA&feature=related
But enough of the blather.....I say Jacobs had the best centre stats of the 2008 TN. Disprove that if you can....or give it a rest.
The try against england was very average and purely the product of JP. His pace was exposed as well. Like I said, I have the game footage right here. He was a very poor centre in a backline that was embarrassing. The three best centres were 1.Nonu, 2.smith, 3.Mortlock. Jean had his moments but cost us dearly in several tests.
A simple set of numbers will do.....stop wriggling. I say again Adi had the best stats of the 2008 TN for centres....and he was solid throughout.
As for the try let me help you see it differently. Firstly Pietersen does a brilliant job....running directly behind the ball carrier, he can pop into the inside or outside gap. Seeing the inside gap is blocked he hits the outside gap and is tackled.
Adi sees his path and the likely tackle and makes his first cut to the inside to be exactly where he needs to be to take a pop pass. That cut also puts him behind the line of tacklers. The second cut is taken early and beautifully timed to take him past the Pom fullback. Both wings are then converging on him from opposite sides ....he finds a path that takes him clear of one.....and when tackled by the other 10 metres out, he has the strength to power over.
It's a fine centre's try showcasing anticipation, elusiveness and strength. No guy who has played in the backs can fail to see the flawless execution.
Well, produce these numbers if they are so relevant to you. You say that he had the best stats of ANY Tri-Nations centre, are you willing to back what you are alluding to and hail him as the best. Very half-hearted you are here in your defence of him. As for the try, the hard work was done by JP. Jacobs came in very slowly into the gap and just about managed to dot down without being scragged. You talk of slow centres, that was a perfect demonstration of why you do not select clumpy out of shape players for test rugby! If we are talking of what Adi brings to the table, then lets talk of his boxed-in body shape that prevents his range of motion for a pass. His pass squirts out of his hands like a bar of soap, no accuracy. He is very slow with slightly better acceleration. His lateral defence is poor, his head on defence is non-existant. I have credited that he CAN at times be in the right place at the right time, which did on occassion compensate for his lack of pace. That's about as much as I can credit without lieing. Furthermore, he has no fight in him. Another very passive player, which was a deadly cocktail with Jean. Neither centre fired well during the TNs of 08. Jean did make numerous breaks in a few of those tests, but his general play was not very accurate and as I say, he cost us dearly in important games. I played centre a long time, and I know damn well what makes a good centre. Adi Jacobs never ever tick any of those boxes.
Moz you are so blinded by the number of tests Olivier played - never putting into perspective the fact that he played many out of position or off the bench and was never given an extended test run at 12.
Adi Jacobs was an insult to the Bok jersey, he was bloody useless
Oh poor Wynand, never given an extended run. Well he had runs of 4, 3, 2 and 2 tests at inside centre. And he had a run of 4 tests at outside centre. And before you complain about that, Jean played wing, outside centre and inside centre. Fury played wing, fullback and outside centre.
None of these guys had the luxury of one position.
As for Wynand it's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing. I'm more persuaded that his runs weren't longer because he was hopelesly exposed. As opposed to he never had enough chances so he played poorly. Early in his career he had three consecutive runs at 12....he made his own bad luck.
Disagree, Olivier was solid at test level. Jean and Fourie are better centres than Olivier - I never had Wynand ahead of these 2 ever - he was always a back-up, in fact number 3 behind Jean and Frans - my point is that he is nowhere near as average as you make him out to be and he proved that on Sat
Moz, Olivier only really started to come into prominence from the latter stages of the 2008 Super 14! In 2006 and 2007 he was an emergency selection. We lost many players in 2006 and he was simply called in to plug the holes. We never had great depth in those years. He obviously was no world beater, but he did well enough for Jake to keep him in the squad. Olivier has never been given a fair shot since he was at his peak. Why? Because Bleater dom Failures was too loyal to his WP chums Adi and Jean. Hell, even Bobo got in ahead of Olivier! No, Olivier is the Akona Ndungane of test 12s.
