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FORUM / RUGBY /  Kwagga red card angers Ackermann

Kwagga red card angers Ackermann

Started by Beeno115 REPLIES754 VIEWS· 06 Aug 2017, 10:43
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2017, 10:43
#1
06 Aug 2017, 10:43#1
What a complete farce the game was turned into. 42 minutes with 14 men and the Lions came that close. Cloudy is right the Lions with 15 men would have won.  Ou rooiwtit will be enraged at anybody daring to question the system!  Ex Supersport

Emirates Lions coach Johan Ackermann called for an overhaul of the red card system after his flanker Kwagga Smith was sent off the field for colliding with Crusaders fullback David Havili in the air during the Lions' 17-25 loss in Saturday’s Vodacom Super Rugby final.

Ackermann said he disagreed with the card, as it was against “common sense” and physics and believed that a more suitable punishment could have been worked out after the game.

The Lions had to play for 42 minutes with 14 men against the Crusaders, who became the first side in Super Rugby history to cross the Indian Ocean to win a final outside their own country.

Ackermann said while he understood it was to the letter of the law, he disagreed with the red card.

“I made a point when Robbie Coetzee got a red card – how I feel about red cards. I don’t think 62 000 people pay to see a 15 versus 14 game – the player can get disciplined afterwards and I will stand by that, especially if it is not outside the law like a kick in the face or a punch, or dirty play,” he told journalists after the game.

“Again, I can’t say too much because one has to respect what the officials say, but one must take into account that if a player jumps in the air forward, where does he go if someone touches his legs. But I suppose the New Zealand people are happy now that Jaco Peyper is a good ref, because last week he wasn’t a good ref.”

“Rudolf Straeuli summed it up because when he (Kwagga) was man of the match four times, everyone loved him, so why would that change?

"Again it is an interpretation about physics and a law, and people – that’s my problem – a law says one thing but common sense says another thing but anyhow. He is a great player, he was tremendous for us through the whole season, we can’t judge him by one incident.

"We still respect and love him as a person. What he brings to the team off the field as well – people always say what a player brings on the field, but off the field he is a great character and great for the team, so that won’t change.”

The Lions coach, who leaves for Gloucester this coming week to take up a coaching position there, said he was disappointed with the result, but that his team would not be “defined by one match.”

“We’re very disappointed and one’s heart is sore, that’s not how we wanted to end it. But Jaco Kriel said it earlier in the week. This team will not be defined by one match and to get to a final you have to do some things right.

"This team – I love them to bits, I love each individual, the way they supported me as a coach. And although the result didn’t go our way, I asked them at halftime not to give up, to keep fighting and we did that at the end. You even got the feeling that if the game was a bit longer, we would have pulled it off, so to me that was quite satisfying, that they never gave up.

“But it is emotional because this is the last time I’m going to be in the changeroom with these guys, and I have to walk away from special people, from a special group of players, from a special management and a special union.

“It’s a tough one but that is sport hey, sport is defined by small moments and I experienced that as a player in 2007, where one or two kicks cost us to not look after the ball and Bryan Habana scored and tonight again, the players will look back at this game and say there was one or two moments that the game slipped away from us.

“The red card definitely and the first try that they scored. For the first try we did all the playing, and then we lost the ball in the ruck and they scored against the run of play.

"I think that gave them a lot of confidence and obviously there were one or two things where we had a lineout close to the tryline, and credit to them they contested it.

"Rohan Janse van Rensburg lost the ball close to the tryline and it would have brought the scorelines close, but those small little moments are what finals are all about. Getting those three, four opportunities and not using them.”

Ackermann will leave this Wednesday for Gloucester after a farewell with the side is planned.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2017, 11:42
#2
06 Aug 2017, 11:42#2
 More good common sense on the subject from B rendan Nel.

The Lions may not be the Super Rugby champions but they should be lauded for the way they managed to somehow save their final against Crusaders from being completely ruined by the red card that saw them play the entire second half with 14 men.

It is not unheard of for a team to beat even good opposition when reduced to 14 men. But when you lose a man to a red card in a final when you are already down by nine points, it is something that is nigh impossible to come back from.

Full marks to the Lions for the way they simply refused to lie down, and the way they played in the last quarter did change my halftime view, which was that the Crusaders were going to win the game regardless of the red card that was shown to Lions flanker Kwagga Smith in the 38th minute.

When Smith was red carded, the Crusaders were leading by 10 points less than the Hurricanes were leading by at a similar stage of last week’s semifinal.

The Lions came back to win that game handsomely, so many Lions fans would wonder why it couldn’t happen again.

The truth is it could have, but it looked like Crusaders had learnt from the Hurricanes' mistakes.

While the now dethroned champions were frenetic and high tempo in their quest to run the Lions off their feet seven days earlier, and thus ended up running themselves off their own feet, the Crusaders were calmer and more measured.

They made sure they won the battles and points that mattered, and when Smith was carded, they looked well set.

The point though is that we will never know what might have happened had it been 15 against 15 the whole way, with the Lions’ comeback in the last quarter, where they cut a 25-3 deficit to 25-17, leaving enough of a question mark.

Ultimately, it was yet another big game in the modern era overshadowed by a red card, and while the individual player deserves to be sanctioned, you do have to question whether the rest of us, meaning all the stakeholders who had an interest in the game, deserved to be left feeling short-changed.

That was certainly how I felt, and I am sure so did millions of others, including Crusaders fans who might feel that their boasting rights – and what a magnificent achievement it was from their team to win a playoff game at altitude in front of 62 000 fanatical Lions fans – were a little undermined by the red card.

That the red card was the right decision from Jaco Peyper was beyond question.

As all the commentators correctly stressed, he was blowing to the law as it is written, and which he is duty bound to adhere to.

That it was the correct decision was shown by the reaction of both Smith and Lions skipper Jaco Kriel when Peyper told them he was issuing a red card.

You don’t play a man in the air, it is simple as that, and neither Smith nor Kriel complained.

However, it was so pleasing to hear Nick Mallett, in his role as a SuperSport studio analyst, lament what the decision had done to the game and to the occasion.

While it is right that everything possible is done to make the game as safe as possible for the players, there are too many cards in modern rugby and they have the impact of detracting from the package for both the paying spectator and the television viewer.

There are also too many occasions where you end up feeling sorry for the player who is banished. Smith should have pulled out before clashing with the airborne David Havilli, but it all happened in a split second, and everyone was in agreement that there was no malicious intent.

In the old days, a player was banished for a heinous deed, and the Sonny Bill Williams action that saw him get sent off in the second Lions test perhaps did qualify as that.

But these days it also seems that many players are red carded just for making a mistake or an error in judgment.

It happened often in the league phase of the season, but when the red card is the talking point after the showpiece day of the season, that highlights a problem for the sport.

There are too many cards, too many times we see teams playing 15 against 14 for all or part of matches, and the modern trend of teams playing for a yellow card in certain instances shouldn’t sit well with those who are charged with preserving the sanctity of the sport and of the 15 against 15 challenge.

It is high time that the game’s rulers introduce a system that sanctions the player and perhaps empties the bench, but keeps the contest at 15 against 15 except in exceptional circumstances.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
06 Aug 2017, 11:55
#3
06 Aug 2017, 11:55#3
 Sounds like a bit of sour grapes from Ackerman RE: the reffing [ plus the 3 other saffas  running the game ] .Most kiwis didnt have anything against  any particular ref just that if you want things to at least look above board have a neutral ref .Smith knew damn well he couldnt really contest the ball and was stupid to put himself in that position .He was damn lucky he didnt break Havillis neck .As regards other sanctions what exactly ? Let players know they cant be sent off ?How well do you think that will work ?Should we return to the good old days of unbridled thuggery ?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2017, 12:21
#4
06 Aug 2017, 12:21#4

ohannesburg - One of the big talking points in Saturday's Super Rugby final was the red card to Lions loose forward Kwagga Smith just before half time. 

The Crusaders were 12-3 up at that stage and looking the better team, and the Lions were always going to struggle to get back into the contest once they were reduced to 14 men. 

They gave a spirited display in the final 25 minutes and threatened to pull off another famous comeback, but in the end they just didn't have enough time on the clock to get it done. 

Crusaders coach Scott Robertson, who has become the first man to win a Super Rugby title as both a player and a coach, said after the match that the red card had an impact on the final result, but that it was the right call.

"I think the process was correct," Robertson said when asked about the decision.

"Jaco (Peyper) was calm, he was clear. He thought it was red, the TMO thought it was red, to the letter of the law it was red ... it's just a shame it happened in a final.

"Kwagga Smith had an unbelievable season and we knew he was a big threat. It's a shame ... it probably did affect the outcome to an extent."

Robertson suggested that the final 20-odd minutes, when the Crusaders were on the ropes, was when the numerical advantage worked most in his side's favour.

"You can't underestimate being up here at altitude, how much of an advantage it is and they played over the top of us," he said.

"With 20 minutes to go the boys were shattered. Mentally it was just so tiring.

"I think it did have an affect on the outcome and it's a shame for the Lions, because they've had some season

ONLY CONCLUSION IS LIONS WOULD HAVE WON WITH 15 MEN. CRUSADERS ARE FAKE CHAMPIONS. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA


BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
06 Aug 2017, 12:54
#5
06 Aug 2017, 12:54#5
 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
06 Aug 2017, 13:12
#6
06 Aug 2017, 13:12#6
 Beeno, please check the Crusader trophy cabinet. You will find a shinny new addition.
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
06 Aug 2017, 13:22
#7
06 Aug 2017, 13:22#7
So what is the difference withn this game over the 2nd test where SBW was red carded Beeno.That was the right decision but this one was a travisty?So according to you the AB's were the champions as they would have won the 2nd test  at a canter with 15 men. Thank you for supporting the mighty All Blacks Beeno its taken you long enough.
Your the only guy I know that watchs rugby wearing 2 eye patchs
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
06 Aug 2017, 13:51
#8
06 Aug 2017, 13:51#8
 Sooooo you finally watched the "Taped" match.
Shame on you Beanhead - where were you when the match was live, when they needed you.
I agree with Ackermann about red cards.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
06 Aug 2017, 20:21
#9
06 Aug 2017, 20:21#9
 Ackerman should have been more clear distinguishing btwin what happened yesterday and the issue around red cards.
Smith's red has no possible discussion. According to the current laws, it's a blatant red cad. Period.

Another issue is the discussion about red cards in general. I've always consider them too much punishment for the team and for the spectators (both live and through the TVs) or the game itself.
They can ruin very important games that many people have been preparing for a long time (case of the professionals involved) or waiting for (fans).
But Ackerman is wrong, in my view, with the solution. He said that "the player can get disciplined afterwards and I will stand by that, especially if it is not outside the law like a kick in the face or a punch, or dirty play",... which is quite vague,..
only "kick in the face or a punch, or dirty play" to be penalised as red? the rest to be disciplined only afterwards the game? what Smith did yesterday is as dangerous as a kick in the face or could be even more

The solution is quite easier and has been brought here more than once,.... the player who is shown a red cannot comeback to the game and he's disciplined afterwards but the team can bring a sub stitute when the 10 minutes have expired,... this way the player is punished but not the spectacle and the team is punished as if it was a yellow (10 mins)


sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,258 posts
06 Aug 2017, 20:58
#10
06 Aug 2017, 20:58#10
IRU may as well make it illegal to catch the ball with your feet off the ground.
The main issue is these accidental red cards under the current laws.
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
07 Aug 2017, 15:53
#11
07 Aug 2017, 15:53#11
 A French ref would, hesitate, look at the big screen..nod his head....and say mmmm afew times...then he would strut pompously to the touch judge where they would both hesitate, look at the big screen and say mmmm afew MORE times...then they would ask the TMO for his decision and then decide something completely opposite to the TMO decision.
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
07 Aug 2017, 20:38
#12
07 Aug 2017, 20:38#12
 I do not have an alternative solution to the one proposed by ABasquefan et al and also by Nick Mallett. This system does however have a potential problem and that is teams might be inclined to select a "villain" or "bone crusher" with the sole purpose to take out a particular dangerous player. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
07 Aug 2017, 20:51
#13
07 Aug 2017, 20:51#13
 Crusaders are unwor thy winners. There should be a rematch!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
07 Aug 2017, 21:52
#14
07 Aug 2017, 21:52#14
 Blikkies...BIG fine and legal action...even criminal cha rges for blatant stuff.
MO
MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
08 Aug 2017, 06:49
#15
08 Aug 2017, 06:49#15
No need to change anything. Where does it stop?? Congrats to the Saders.I feel gutted for the Lions, they made all South African Rugby supporters proud.Poor Kwagga was reckless and according to the laws he was red carded. 
I agree with Blikkies. If teams were able to replace a red carded player after 10min with a sub it will bring a whole new dynamic to the game. I believe an unwanted dynamic at that.
What happened to SBW and Kwagga for example was the harsh reality associated with professional sport. Consider this, an Olympian trains for 4 years in preparation for his nominated athletics or swimming event only to have jumped the start in the final as the favorite. There's some pretty big disappointment in that scenario.
3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
08 Aug 2017, 08:12
#16
08 Aug 2017, 08:12#16
Lol Beeni is a trump supporter. Enough said. Been reading most SA views I've talked too. They don't believe the red card made a difference. Saders were simply the better side. They outclassed and outmuscled the Lions in all facets, They did a very good job in neutralising the Lions set pieces and rolling maul. So sorry Beeno just sour grapes from you. I'm sure you didn't say a thing when Barrett got yellow carded, and 17 points were scored in his absence. That was worser. It was unjustified. Kwaggers wasent. It was dangerous. Havili could of broken his neck. Ref had no choice. Blame the laws, not the ref applying the laws.
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