Leatherman Player of the Match....

LEATHERMAN SA PLAYER OF THE MATCH
Frans Steyn kicked seven from eight goal attempts for a personal tally of 19 points. His physicality at the tackle kept the Sharks on the front foot, while his exemplary line kicking ensured that the visitors won the territorial battle.

I agree. Frans loomed over this game...the contrast to Swiel last week couldn't be greater

 Mozart
You have some weird ideas about rugby such as -
*   the only role of a flyhalf is to kick penalty conversions and try conversions 0- h can bugger up completely in respect of other components of the game, but eh is still irreplaceable: and
*   the only function of locks are to be acceptable line out jumpers - irrespective of how effective the rest of their games is.
Just one question - other than goalkicking what was Steyn's main contribution to the game yesterday?  I would say constant and aimless kicking of balls out of hand  - of the 21 balls he handled he kicked 12 away aimlessly - he passed 4 balls to other players and he carried the balls himmsrlf 5 times only making an average of 3,6 meters in territory gain per carry.   
Is he a flyhalf completely destroying backline play?   Most definitely - he is even worse than he is at center.   And this is the man you want as Springbok flyhalf.    That wouild be an even worse disaster than Morne Steyn managed to achieve. 

" He is off to japan to go and play soft rugby there.  Coming back he will be more over-weight than he already is - he will be even slower in pace than he already is and he will again want to prescribe when he should train and when he should sit out.   Plumtree was right - he is no center and definitely not a flyhalf - so White is taking a very long time to get the right impression of the guy.  
Another disappointing game today is a certainty"
As the egg drips off the Ooms face, he goes on the attack...but it's obvious, it's another Oom humilation

 Mozart
Other than goal kicking Steyn produced ZERO of value.  That is the fact of life.   Almost any other goal kicker would have made all the goal kicks Steyn made and even one miss would not have been a disaster.
What really happened is that Steyn destroyed any potential backline play by the Sharks - the players outside of him virtually never saw the ball.  That may have worked out foir the match yesterday - but the Highlanders are going to beat the ten man game of the Sharks with ease.   They did it in the round Rovin games and they are going to do that next Saturday.
I am saying this because Steyn - together with Alberts - were promarily responsible for the loss against the Highlanders in the last game the two sides played against each other - and the same game plan utilized yesterday flopped in the previous Highlanders game.    Please note that Steyn took over the flyhalf position relatively early in that game and when he should pass the ball he kicked away balls aimlessly for the rest of the match.           

 @Ou Maaikie, any reason why you have not posted your usual comparative stats between Goosen and Steyn  to prove how useless Steyn was?

I will get it for you, to save you the effort and then you take it from there. Deal?

FH Steyn  
0/0 19 12/4/5 18 0 0 2 2 9/1 0/0 0 0/0FH Goosen 0/0 10 3/16/2 5 0 2 1 0 3/0 0/0 0 1/0

Goosen has now mastered the art of making rugby a non contact sport. But as I was aware in my many years of riding fast motor cycles, it's not so much what you do, it's what the other guy does. Ask Vermeulen how his head feels this morning after JP delivered his flying, accidental head butt.

 Mozart
After watching the game again I saw how many times Steyn kicked the ball when in opposition half and consequently lost many meters of territory.   Matter of fact the long period the Stormers were in the Sharks 22 attacking was the resuul of one of those kicks.  
Steyn rrely passed the ball and he was mostly aimless in kicking balls.  The only time the Sharks backline really functioned was when Steyn was not involved at all - otherwise it would not have happened.  The Sithole try was a typical example. 
A case where the positive part of Steyn's contributions were the result of goal kicks only - the rest of his game was actually not up to the standard one would normally expect from a flyhalf.  

CleverMike: the only steyn result that is not subject to interpretation is his goal kicks - is it a coincidence that this is the only thing you did not see as aweakness? Perhaps it could be said they were easy kicks?  Or that this is what is the minimum required & not enough to justify his selection ? 

The number of times that a ball is kicked  is a statistical fact. A ball being "kicked away aimlessly" is a opinion that could be and quite often is heavily influenced by bias.

At least Steyn was involved a hell  of a lot more  than the absent boy wonder and walking yellow card in the Cheetahs side. He is also not too shit scared to attempt to make tackles. Funny, I saw him running away, with his  back towards the opposition again. Just like he has done almost 2 years ago:

Rugby Championship 2012 - Johan Goosen Defence

C eradyne
I will be civil this time around.   If a  ball is recovered through a turnover in the opposition half of the field - there is one thing that is the golden rule - you never kick that ball away - especially not straight into the hands of an opposition player.  Steyn did it twice yesterday and as a result of  a series of plays - the Sharks ended up in their own 22.  
Steyn is not a strategic kicker - the ball is kicked straight down the middle of the field and it is easily fielded.   This is complicated by the fact that his kicks is so long  that it does not allow for effective follow-up to put the opposition under  pressure.  It ihappens that the opposing teams launch counter-attacks in such cases and often enough it is counter-productive and result in loss in territory.
Strategic kicks entails that there is an objective attached to the kicks - in Steyn's case the aswer is simple - he kicks in the hope that the recipient or other layers makes a handling error - there is zero strategic attached to the kicks.   
Let me summarize - strategic kicks are made to achieve a realizable objective,  aimless kicks - normal with Steyn does not have an achievable objective in mind.  

 Wooosh.

He did not turn his back  and  ran away.......

You are hell-bent on dissing Steyn. That is of course something that you have elsewhere denied  of ever doing and have accused others of.
 
You are often pissing about others who cling onto single incidents. Now you are pissing about Frans Steyns two misdirected kicks. Your problem is that you battle to see things in perspective. The Sharks, as a team, kicked the ball 31 times. That makes Steyn's two  kicks at 6.5% of the licks that went wrong. How many other licks also went wrong? To add more perspective to the issue. Two out of Steyn's 18 kicks went wrong. That means that 16 other kicks were not problematic "in your eyes". To bluntly say that under these, that and the other circumstances you never kick the ball is another interesting remark. Isn't saying that turning a player into  a "robotic" player? In any case, if Francois Steyn does not normally have an achievable objective in mind means that he should never in his  life be allowed to  be anywhere near a rugby field in any form  of competitive rugby. That would mean that any of all the coaches who ever offered him a contract and selected him for  any game are complete morons. That would also be anybody who has ever said that he deserves his place in  any team. In any case, as a part time flyhalf, he is way better than runaway Glaasen who is  too shit scared to defend.

 Ceradyne how about you watch the Cheetahs games, it annoys me how much Goosen get's involved in defending rather than just reading the statistics. He keeps getting involved in the rucks and mauls which is not his forte and he needs to back off and conserve himself for a counter attack. There's been a few times this season where he's been in a ruck and the Cheetahs get possession and he's been out of position. 
No point arguing Frans Steyn with anyone Mike, they won't listen. Ignorance is bliss ey. 

 Ag foeitog. He is annoyed. Glaasen is kak scared. Time to accept it. I was actually watching him specifically during parts of the game. He shied away from tackles. I hardly ever jump to stats to support what I am saying, but in this instance they reflect what was said on numerous occasions. I have credited him for not missing a tackle but then he has only attempted three tackles. If it is true that he is always involved in rucks and mauls, hence always having to "run back" to his position, then there is something seriously wrong with his positional play. 
Then again, in this game in particular game, he was nothing but a link. That was something that I noticed during the game. There was no  evidence at all of his so-called flair and creativity. The largest part of his contribution was to get the ball and immediately pass it on. He only attacked the gain-line twice and he did manage to beat the defender on both occasions but that was the sum total of his so-called attacking flair. He did not attack the gain-line. Not by way of tactical kicking and not by way of attacking running. H is defense was non-existent and he got carded again.
In this game he loafed. He left it to his team mates to do the attacking with ball in hand and he left it to his team mates to do the defending.

The difference between a warrior like Frans and a worrier like Goosen couldn't be starker. If you want to win play the warriors

Shame the Cheetahs beat the Sharks then...
You always refer to statistics, don't lie leave that to Mozart.

Nope. It is your mate  ou Maaikie who is the one  who also pulls up the stats. I only did it this time to find out what he was thinking about Glaasen's poor showing.

Again why bother lie, I'm not going to think of an example because I can't particularly remember one as it's not the sort of thing I remember. But I know that you use statistics to back most of you're rugby related arguments. Mozart is selective, choosing only when stats favour his blessed players and Mike uses them wherever as he's not bias in any way. 

 OK. get us those examples. Not one  or two examples. Remember that you have just said that I use statistics to back up "most of my rugby related arguments". I hope that you will be able  to  back  yourself with this one, especially since you have just made this hilariously fuck-up remark: "Mike uses them wherever as he's not bias in any way. " 
You do realize that I will be bumping this thread as a reminder to come up  with your "prove", don't you? 

 I wouldn't be of the opinion thatyou  use stats otherwise, I'm not going to go through the threads looking for an example even though I wouldn't have to look far.
'Fuck up remark'? No it's the truth, you and Mozart constantly ignore Frans Steyn's statistics then you pull up stats for another player that aren't half as bad claiming they are the are a bad player.

 Nice try but you were missing everything and  you walked straight into it. I was actually taking the piss at ou Maaikie and you have nit even noticed. I knew that he did not but that was expected.

This is the story. I posted those stats after he compared stats from two different games last week to "prove" how crap Matfield was. He compared Matfield's "stats" from the Stormers/Bulls game with Lood's "stats" from the Sharks/Cheetahs game. I expected that he would miss the subtle clue that I was taking the piss, but it seems that you have also managed to miss it. Read the clue again:

"@Ou Maaikie, any reason why you have not posted your usual comparative stats between Goosen and Steyn  to prove how useless Steyn was?"

Take note that I have deliberatly also used the stats from two different games to see if he would notice but no cigar. He went on about how he revisited the game and he started challenging the stats. You, as usual, were right behind  him, or was it perhaps right up his backside, in support. And you were so "annoyed" when I kept telling how crap Glaasen  was.


TBH, I am actually a bit pissed off that you kind of forced me to let the cat out the bag. I was planning on playing him a bit longer.


PS. Glaasen is still crap and it was a fucked-up remark. You have nothing to back it up. Fokol.

 This is amazing - I said that Steyn's kicks are inaccurate - aimless and not strategic -  and Ceradyne disputes that because Steyn made only two ball handover kicks (by kicking balls straight into touch) of the 12 kicks he actually made.  He then said - the Sharks as a team made 31 kicks - so the 2 bad kicks of Steyn is only 2 out of 31 kicks made - what a really BS argument.  
It is Steyn's kicking we are dealing with not the whole team.  Of the 10 remaining kicks - he was just buggering up with all of them.   Two kicks made in the Stormers half of the field - when everyone would have said keeps the ball in hand - ended up dieectly in the hands of Stormers players and a series of plays ensued that ended up within the Sharks 22.   That makes 8 kicks.  Of those 8 all were too far ahead to be followed up effectively and that again was straight at recipients - with a result that there wwas very little or no territorial gain or even loss of territory.  
It is not that I dissed Steyn - the above is factual information  and indicates a player with no idea when to kick or when to pass balls.   This has been the case throughout Super 15.   He handed over to the opposition more balls than any other player in Super 15  - mostly stemming from poor kicking.  That is also a fact.
Problem remains - Steyn is a poor distribution player - whether he plays at center or at flyhalf.  In one game he was heavily criticized by the analysts  that he ket on making skip passes when teh Sharks had overlaps and he cut those out by making skip passes.
At flyhalf his passing game varied from inaccurate to nearly non-existent - in most games passing made up about 25% of all balls handled by him.  At center it is even worse - he is notorious for ball hogging and running straight at the first defender - getting tackled and the move comes to a dead end.  
Statistically Steyn has the worst record of all players in 10 or 12 inasmuch that -
*   he himself made only 1 line break in the whole series;*   he never once came near to scoring a try himself - all the other 1's or 12's scored tries;*   his defense was seriously suspect with the highest missed tackle ratio of all 10's and 12's.
The above are facts - not fiction.   I think White puts up with it since he has a soft spot for him and is particularly loyal to players who played a major role in the 2007 WC.   He allows him - because of his dodgy knee - to miss training sessions and the team suffers as a result.  No other coach will put up with his proven sub-par performances.
I think that Plumtree got sick of his tantrums and just benched him - while he also tried  the same with Meyer in the latest case of him walking out of the Springbok  squad at the very last minute.  Will we ever know the truth about that incident?   Probably when Meyer writes his memoirs.  My own impression is that it is likely that Steyn was not allowed by Meyer to skip training sessions and he then threw his toys out of the cot.  
Is Steyn a team player or more interested in Steyn himself and not the team?   Was he the one who tried a stunt to derail Daniel in 2013 with the so-called "too many Afrikaans players int eh Sharks team" story?
From a person with a huge admiration for Steyn - he has shown since his return from France in 2012 that his performances have gone from bad to worse - he never once had a good game for either the Springboks or the Sharks.  In the case of the latter team he had one great line break in the 2014 game against the Crusaders and ended up letting the team down badly afterwards.                     

"He then said - the Sharks as a team made 31 kicks - so the 2 bad kicks of Steyn is only 2 out of 31 kicks made - what a really BS argument.  "

Selective reading again. I also said that the kicks were 2 out of his total of 18 kicks, which is a very low percentage of his own kicks as well. That is the perspective that you missed out on. You have now also suddenly found another two problematic kicks. As for the rest you have found some kind of opinion that they were crap as well, followed by a hell of an essay that is used for diversion.

"Diversion? What diversion", you might ask. The diversion away from your golden boy Glaasen, mate. That diversion. Steyn had a better showing in this game than Glaasen against the Lions.

 Ceradyne
Hiow many times do you have to be told stick to facts.   First of all 0 the total number of kicks launched by Fransie was 12 - where did you get the 18 from?   The second is what has Goosen got to do with the issue?  Bugger all.
And the fact is that I did not discover the bad kicks - it was there for all to see.   Steyn is clueless insofar as flyhalf play is concerned - that is also a fact.   He did exactly what I said he did and the end result was often negative and put his team under pressure.   
Aimless kicking is an abomination and 99% of Steyn's kicking is aimless.  He is in strong competition with Morne Steyn there and that is also a fact - even though I would say he is leading that race by a short head.   Goosen's kicking game is ten times better than both - he knows how to make strategic kicks and has a longer range than both in any event   Above all he knows when to kicka nd when to pass balls - the Steyn's is clueless in that regard as well.  
But then the Bulls and there supporters always buggers up comprejehensively and they d not know what s the key t a good kicking game.
   

 "Hiow many times do you have to be told stick to facts.   First of all 0 the total number of kicks launched by Fransie was 12 - where did you get the 18 from?"

The same place where you found the "0" that you have in your sentence above, drol. A typo.

"The second is what has Goosen got to do with the issue?  Bugger all.".

I am glad that you have discovered that at last and there was a reason why I brought in Glaasen into this Steyn argument. In fact, I have already explained it to your gabba, ou Shezza last night but you have obviously missed it. I did it because I was taking the piss at you. It is as stupid, bring in Glaasen as it was  stupid bringing Lood, from a different game and even a different playing position in your argument about Matfield in the Stormers game. Hopefully you have now learnt that it just cannot be done because that is also one of your standard operational procedures. To compare the "stats" of one player from one game with the "stats" of another from another game and them make a judgement.

Yes, I will answer Beeno  tomorrow. Poepol on a string,  remember.

 Now, people shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, we all know how much you admire our Mozart... 
You're whole comment towards me is a mess, you've gone a tangent there mate. Can't argue with a liar to be frank, you use statistics on a regular basis, usually when you follow Mike around the board. 

 Look Dofste Doos
I was civil with you and gave up on that once you start calling names again.   You went off on a tangent when I pointed out that Steyn really is a clueless kicker and a very poor link in the backline to boot.   He really is not good enough to play at flyhalf or center because he is blatantly oblivious to reading of the game and decision making and in view of that - he made huge mistakes in both the kicking and passing game.
How ignorant about rugby are those who think that Steyn is in fact a suitbale player for either of the positions?   The answer is completely so.  


        

 CleverMike, surely you dont call White or Meyer ignorant? Never mind just about every other coach and rugby writer out there?

 

Have you ever attended a Sharks practice to see what goes on there? Have a proper look at the role Steyn plays in the team and how the game plan is practiced? Try pop down this week, you may be in for a surprize.

Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 999 RE: Leatherman Player of the Match....
July 14, 2014, 11:57:35  Now, people shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, we all know how much you admire our Mozart... 
You're whole comment towards me is a mess, you've gone a tangent there mate. Can't argue with a liar to be frank, you use statistics on a regular basis, usually when you follow Mike around the board. 

 
I admire nobody. Moz can tell you how many heated arguments we have had over the years and when I disagree with, I sure as hell say so. As much as you wouldn't like to believe it, I have even agreed with Safesex on many occasions.

Having said that, if you accuse, you have to prove. Show me where I have relied on stats in most of my arguments, like you said earlier, or on a regular basis like you have now decided.


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 11722 RE: Leatherman Player of the Match....
July 14, 2014, 12:08:14  Look Dofste Doos
I was civil with you and gave up on that once you start calling names again.   You went off on a tangent when I pointed out that Steyn really is a clueless kicker and a very poor link in the backline to boot.   He really is not good enough to play at flyhalf or center because he is blatantly oblivious to reading of the game and decision making and in view of that - he made huge mistakes in both the kicking and passing game.
How ignorant about rugby are those who think that Steyn is in fact a suitbale player for either of the positions?   The answer is completely so. 



Now you suddenly wanted to be civil, while you are the one who is forever calling me a cunt. Fok jou man. If there is any one going of in a tangent it is you. You are so blinded by your rage that you cannot see when I am playing the fool with you.

PS. Your "findings" that Steyn is useless is nothing but an inflated opinion. Nothing more. You are even entitled to your crappy opinion as well. Just do not expect every body to share it. Easy as that.

BTW. Glaasen was crap, cannot defend and has become a disciplinary liability.

 Look - Since Steyn is excluded from most training because of his wobbly knee - what role does he in fact play in training?   I am not sure that his contribution to games is positive - if it was the backline of the Sharks would have functioned properly and not only functioning if he is not involved.   
Other than kicking at goal - he is statistically in fact the worst 10 and 12 in SA - both in atatck and in defense.  When saying that I looked at all players throughout the 15 games played and not the stats only in respect of one game.   Take an example for instance - on Saturday the Sharks scored three tries - all three in which Steyn's involvement was zero.   If he was involved - he would have found a way to ensure that none of the tries being scored. 

When I accused you I explicitly mentioned why I wasn't going to find an example, I can not be arsed to do so.

You 'can not' be arsed....but you are an arse. Waaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha. 

Shezza

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1000 RE: Leatherman Player of the Match....
July 14, 2014, 13:33:54 When I accused you I explicitly mentioned why I wasn't going to find an example, I can not be arsed to do so.

Yes, you did. I will give you that but you know and I know why you will not find examples (note the plural). It is like me saying that you are a  paedophile and I am not even going to look for examples to prove my point.

"It is like me saying that you are a  paedophile . . ."

Charming. Ceradunce really does bring a touch of class to every thread he touches.

Shezza, I completely understand why you wouldn't be arsed with a childish liar like Moffie. I mean really, just look at his "retort" to you. Have you ever seen anything so juvenile in your life? My advice, just ignore the pompous and deceitful old windbag. It doesn't stop him yapping away at you but you do get some satisfaction knowing how angry he gets when you don't respond to his infantile little fibs.

Hey Rooi

 

Good ole buddy... ole pal .

 

Rooinek

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1469 RE: Leatherman Player of the Match....
July 14, 2014, 15:23:34

Charming. Ceradunce really does bring a touch of class to every thread he touches.

 

The irony........ lol........ is unprecedented with this statement of yours

 

I haven't yet come across any thread where you haven't insulted or de-classed a thread in some way or other

 

I am glad we are on talking terms again , and I can call you buddy

Stu, if for some reason I want the opinion of a . . . hmmm, what was the term that got you so upset the last time . . . oh yes, a snivelling coward . . . well, if I want to know what the snivelling cowards of the world think about anything then I'll be sure to put your name up in the subject box . . . until then, keep your silly little trap shut and speak when you're spoken to.

Okay? Clear enough for you? Good . . . then run along, little chap.

 To think weasel is in his 70's and apparently has a PhD, wow that was shocking. 
Ceradyne, get some context, I don't need to prove it as I know that you use statistics (Selectively). 
Rooinek, I am starting to stray that way but bugs me how weasel is so vapid that he would think he won an argument if there was a lack of my enlightenment . 

 http://www.validus.co.za/ValidusPages/clemens-adult-care/Clemens-Complete-Diapers.html

There you go ou Rooibal. Looks like you have run out of stock again. Time to go shopping old fart.