Lessons from the English hype bubble burst

Ever since the Pom victory over what now appears to have been a divided AB team, the drums have been beating on the Thames. The revival of English rugby was at hand…to be led by ‘master’ tactician George Ford. Forgotten were all the past failures, including notably the 99 WC final. Coming back again as world beaters, we hade Genge and Curry. All this seemed highly improbable, but no matter.

And yesterday it predictably imploded. Are there any pieces to pick up from this embarrassing loss. Not many I fear. Ford is not a WC winning flyhalf, even his goal kicking is not reliable under pressure. Genge would be a gift to the likes of the Springboks. Hayes looks better and with a power loosehead could be effective.

‘’The rest…wings, centers, locks, loosies just weren’t very impressive. The two mega talents available to Borthwick are Pollock and Marcus Smith. He should be building around those two players….the retreads Steward, Mitchell, Ford, Genge, Curry and Underhill are not likely to suddenly become different players.

I don't recall any chest-beating or talk of an English rugby revival.

I remember the English celebrating the win over the ABs but I haven't seen any of this hype you're referring to. Not from family, friends or the media.

If anything, the English have downplayed the victory. We only have one English supporter on this board and becs has been more of a doomsayer for England than a drum-beater convinced that England have turned some corner.

Perhaps it's just convenient to paint the English as boastful and arrogant because it fits your own view of them?

I don't know what "hype-bubble" you and ou Maaik are talking about. News to me.

I do agree on George Ford though. It's one thing to have a rather ordinary player like Ford in your starting XV if he's the best you've got but Borthwick has either of the Smiths as an option. What does he think Ford can do that they can't? It beats me.

Most disappointing thing for me is the complete lack of ambition or guts. Going for poles when you're two tries behind was such a weak decision that speaks volumes about Borthwick as a coach. The drop kick was even worse.

Come on Wales!

I’m not talking about becs, she has always been modest to a fault about her team. More like this sort of material, readily available on the net. And the hyperbole we hear from commentators. You haven’t sensed any of this?

England's rugby team, under coach Steve Borthwick, has transitioned from a series of defeats to a winning streak of 10 matches, including a victory over the All Blacks. With youthful players stepping up and experienced ones performing exceptionally, the team has evolved into a formidable force in international rugby.

Journalists are paid to write stuff like that. It's not just England, it's every country where rugby is played. Editors want people to read their columns. they're just selling copy or getting people to subscribe.

All commentators talk their team up. Have you ever listened to Jonathan Davies call a Wales game or Warren Brosnihan a Springbok one? Not sure why the English commentators are being singled out. They're not nearly as bad.

Still don't know what hype you're talking about.

Wales getting smashed here. France should put 60 or even 70 over them.

Yesterday's win was a shock.

But Scotland were hurting after last week. So I think context does matter a bit. Nevertheless, yesterday was more than a step backward for the Poms.

Why they refuse to use M Smith at 10 is beyond me. Borthwick probably feels he's too much of a wildcard. But then, every time I watch him he makes things happen. And they could really have used some spark yesterday.

Ford is Ford. Gritty and a hard worker but not a world beater. It only takes ten minutes of watching him play to know exactly what you're gonna get from him.

But the biggest disappointment for me was the English forwards. Granted I only watch the last part of the game. They looked flaccid.

Glad that old Pretender was better yesterday. He showed some nifty distribution at the right time toward the end of the game that helped Ireland escape embarrassment. Heaven only knows how he missed those conversions but he won back a few points from me regardless. Happy form him even if still not convinced.

The biggest surprise of the weekend for me was Italy's scrum. Holy shit they demolished the Irish. Watching the Irish front rowers get lifted off their feet! I mean, say what you want about technique but that some proper power the Italians were putting in.

All in all, I don't think the 6N hasn't been that bad. It's nice keeping an eye on the opposition anyway.

Well if the hype isn’t going to come from commentators and the press, where exactly will it come from? There is massive hype about Bok rugby as well, but the Boks have delivered, so it’s warranted to some extent. Here, Stephen Jones clearly had the same impression I did, too much was being made about England’s win streak:

STEPHEN JONES | SIX NATIONS

Only the most bullish of Scots could ever have seen this result coming — nothing worked out as expected, and England simply must make changes

Moffie, you're the only person I know who has ever said words to the effect of "Stephen Jones agrees with me therefore I must be right".

Stephen Jones is generally regarded as an opinionated and self-absorbed fool.

You're better than that.

You're opinionated and self-absorbed but you're no fool. I'll give you that.

Very kind.

"Forgotten were all the past failures, including notably the 99 WC final."

??? Surely meant 23?

2019 ….when Dud Toit destroyed George….thanks for the catch.

The English press and fans were tail in the air since the AB win...if Planet Rugby posters were anything to go by...as well as some neutrals on her...of wat sê ek Plum...the English team is on the up despite yesterday...good get down to earth moment for them...the Scots always keep their best match for the Poms and they were lucky yesterday.

Plum, the English scrum totally dominated Scotty until Schoeman came on in the second halve...

The Poms have a decent pack, when they started some hard straight running with their big carriers in the second half they made inroads. Bollock should have come on a lot sooner, he had an impact and his edge forwarding is top class.

But that backline...who'd make any of the SH sides, Aus included? Maybe Ford for Aus since they have no test quality flyhalf outside of the fading JOC, but who else? Waboso is probably the closest they have to a real weapon wide, and Ollie Lawrence is a bastard to stop anywhere, but especially on a good line in the red zone, yet they persist with Freeman who's hardly putting the fear of god into anyone. Let's see what Abortwick (how's that Rooi, eh?) comes up with next time round. He'll prolly persist with Georgie Porgie much like Farrell clings to Prenny.

Abortwick is clever, but it's a subject I prefer not to even think about or associate with humour . . . so not for me, but Georgie Porgie is another keeper.

No need to put the worst connotation on a common word like abort though, but cool.

Georgie Porgie comes from the old nursery rhyme so not an original, but we can play with it.

Georgie Porgie

pudding and pie

kicks the drop

the Pommies cry

when the Scots come out to play

Georgie Porgie fades away

I don’t see Steve Borthwick as the coach to take England to a Six Nations title, let alone a World Cup victory.

His game plan is often too conservative and very one dimensional. He sticks with players who probably won’t make much impact at a World Cup, but then again England most probably don’t have many better options available.

Not starting Marcus Smith and Pollock, doesn’t help. Even though I don’t really like Pollock, he is a good player.

You can say similar things about Rassie. He uses mostly a forward orientated game plan, with a lack of backline play and holding on to old, over the hill players.

Rassie does have better player options available, but the gap is still bigger with Borthwick.

Right now England look predictable, with a very poor defensive system.

Stephen Jones hates the English ! If we’d put 100 on Scotland he’d still find a way to slag us off !!

A really poor performance from England against Scotland.

But perhaps the coach was testing some English players for the big games.

Who knows other than Dave.

SJ saves most of his venom for the ABs, but keep em coming, I'm having a lekker laugh. Hopefully ouDawie finds the banter irresistible & he joins in telling whoever how effing stupid we are.

"2019 ….when Dud Toit destroyed George….thanks for the catch....".

yes...sorry...we knocked them out of 99, beat them in the final of 07, beat them in the 19 final and knocked them out in 23... we've got their number in RWCs...

Mpower

You can say similar things about Rassie. He uses mostly a forward orientated game plan, with a lack of backline play and holding on to old, over the hill players.

Just a question - when last have you watched the tests in which the Springboks played? Must have been before 2024.

Draad

The Eng lish team of 2020 to 2023 was really top class and deserved to eon he 2003 RWC, By 2007 the team was ranked 7th in the world becaise of the Meyer disease - refusal to replace fossills in the team. Un he Round Robin game ag ainst Soth Africa they lost he match badly - so theyw ent back to the fossils and by hook and by crook they got through to the final. They were very competitive in the final and could have won the final - bar the fact that they gave away too many kickable penalties, In the end they lost that match In the end they lost despite he fact that the Spingboks had no game plan for the match.

By 2019 the English had a much stronger team than they had in 2007 - they beat the AB's in the semifinal by playing more effectove backline attacking play. However - they were comprehensively beaten by the Springboks - wth two players destroying ther backline - namely Du Toit and De Allende, The 2 plaaers were so effective thjat the English commentator said tpwrds the end of the match said - "There is just no way through".

The S[romgboks by 2023 had problems but they still won the RWC hardly driven by a refusal by the team to lose matches, However - since 2023 the Springboks changed drastically in both the team selection and game plans. and new players have been introdiced in he squad - while th game plans were changed. That is why the team art present is by some distance the best team in the World.

Scotland h as a ay to beat the English - they also won the 2024 6 Nations test aganst England. George Fod is not a glyhaf arse and he rest of the backline is not good nough at all. The fact is English cub rugby has financil problems with team renewal being limited,

Despite all protestations by Rooinek the hype was present and evens pilled pver opn this site - with Plum stating they will wonm the 6 Nations this year, In the remaining twomatche France must play England. Scotland and Italy and I beleive they will win against all three teams/

The standings at present are as follow:-

1 France - 10 points

2 Scotland - 6 points

3 England - 5 points

4 Italy - 5 points

5 Ireland - 4 poimts

6 Wales - 0 points.

. .

I've missed a few of these NH games, but something jumps out at me in each game I do watch.

None of them, including France, have a Jasper Wiese, and they could all do with one.

Where they all lack a glue, we have a Roman concrete.

Perhaps I have a penchant for underrated players, but I'm bloody glad we have Jasman in his prime. Without him, our pack starts looking a bit like these NH packs. With him, our pack looks completely unstoppable.

It's also worth remembering that Boks have had numerous setbacks in their rise.

We had two setbacks last year...one of them being at home to Australia in a game we should never have lost.

My advice to England would be to stay the course. You can't fall apart at the first terrible result. Especially not when the opposition just played their best game of rugby in years.

The English team has a problem at center, on the wing, at flyalf and at full back - in other words a defectivr backline,

Wiese is not a real no 8 as well. He si a poor version of Vermeulen - slow and not a factor in attacking play - especially since the Brown system require invovlement of the loosies in backline attacks as well since he is pace-dificient, In my book I see Hanekom a nd Roos as better 8's than Wiese,

.

Then why does the Bok pack only look half as good when he's not there?

...oh, wait, I guess Wiese hasn't played for WP.

Don't care for which fanchise Wiese played - he is just not a good enough loosie with limited capabilities.

"None of them, including France, have a Jasper Wiese, and they could all do with one."

And there's Jack and Tom Willis just over the channel and the RFU too pig headed to select them. Tom Willis is the most destructive England forward carrier they have and Jack is the best openside in the game IMO.

Must agree, Xavi. While I don't watch a lot of Premiership rugby, I have to say that from what I've seen, Borthwick has gone for the wrong brothers.

To me, the Willis brothers offer a lot more than the Curry brothers.

As for Jasper Wiese, I've always admired his direct style of play and he does give the Bok loose trio a hard edge, but he'll always be a bit one-dimensional and predicatable. Not saying either Roos or Hanekom are ready to replace Jasper yet but they both provide something other than just hard and direct running.

Jasper is very effective though. Anyone who wants that Bok #8 jersey will have to prove he can be as effective and as influential as Jasper.

Tom looks handy indeed.

Tom is still at Saracens but is moving back over to France for next season. As that makes him ineligible to play for us then, Borthwick chose to select players who are staying in England. I know many of you disagree with the RFU ruling, but I don’t.

Ou Boet.

Yeah, the Willis brothers are much better than Ben Earl and Guy Pepper. Sam Underhill is not bad and usually performs consistently.

The RFU is quite dumb to exclude players who are not playing in England. It doesn’t make sense to me. Just something more counting against Borthwick and the Poms.

It’s been the rule for a very long time, Mpower.

The funny thing is, when Tom Willis played for England his form wasn’t as good as it was for Saracens….

iMPi ... same rule in NZ

Ja, I know Bob, but I still don’t agree with it. Top players will always chase the big money contracts while they still can, so for NZ or the RFU to use these kinds of manipulation tactics feels short sighted.

It limits the national squad from selecting the best players and ultimately makes the team weaker. That defeats the whole purpose of having these regulations.

If they want to be competitive at the highest level, they should reconsider...it did wonders for the Bokke.

I'm with becs on this.

We had this argument many years ago and I was in a very small minority of posters who didn't want the Springboks to select any players playing outside of their domestic structures (in those days it was Super 12).

In principle, I still believe that. I believe that the more of your best players you retain, the higher the level of your domestic rugby. The future of Springbok rugby would be more sustainable and less likely to be impacted by emigrations.

In practice though, it's not fair to deny a young and talented rugby player the opportunity to earn the money he deserves. The state of our country and the economy means that players almost have to play overseas if they want to be true professionals and do the best for their families.

England doesn't have those problems which is why I agree with their policy. I wish we were a first world country that could have the same policy, but we're not.

I accept that the Boks maybe wouldn't have had the success they've had without our overseas based players but how many of those overseas players would have stayed if it meant representing the Springboks? Those are the Springboks I would want, the ones who put the badge above everything else . . . but professionalism and economics dictate otherwise.

Having said all that, I wonder if the Willis brothers decisions to play in France were influenced by Bore-Thick's continued preference for the Curry brothers?

Anyway, don't compare the Springbok policy with the English one. You're not comparing apples with apples.

...exactly why the URC is a perfect fit for us.

We're right in the middle of a perfect storm at the moment and I hope it never stops raining.

Two hammerings in a row. Makes it less likely to be an anomaly.

What's the worst thing that could happen now, another big loss to France or beating France?

Big loss = Knocks confidence, undermines what has been built and leaves them all at sea. The positive being that it forces massive soul searching and reassessment, sort of in time for the WC

Beating France = Might make papering over cracks more likely and play into a lack of willingness to fix what are likely core issues within the strategy, personnel or dressing room, or any mixture of or all of those. The positive being that it will boost their confidence and remind them why they were on such an extended win streak.

If I could pick, I'd opt for a hammering by France that causes a proper reset.