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FORUM / RUGBY /  Lest we forget....paying homage to thousands of NZers killed in WW1..

Lest we forget....paying homage to thousands of NZers killed in WW1..

Started by Brycy35 REPLIES2,278 VIEWS· 07 Nov 2013, 10:29
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BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
07 Nov 2013, 10:29
#1
07 Nov 2013, 10:29#1

In Saturday's Test, the All Blacks will be wearing their alternate white strip which will be embossed with a red poppy on the sleeve to again mark Armistice Day (November 11), the anniversary of the end of the hostilities of World War I.

 

Thirteen All Blacks lost their lives in World War I, including 1905-06 Originals Captain, Sergeant Dave Gallaher. The trophy, which France and the All Blacks play for, The David Gallaher Cup (Le Coupe de David Gallaher) is named in his honour.

 

Sergeant Dave Gallaher, who had captained the All Black Originals on their celebrated 1905–06 tour of Britain, France and North America. He was mortally wounded on 4 October 1917 during the successful, but costly, attack on Gravenstafel Spur. He died a few hours later and was buried at Nine Elms Cemetery, Poperinge. Officially aged 41, Gallaher was actually almost 44. He had first lowered his age when volunteering to fight in the South African War in 1901.

 

In recent years All Black teams touring France have paid homage to Gallaher at his Belgian grave. His name lives on in the Gallaher Shield, awarded to the winner of Auckland’s premier club competition since 1922. A more recent trophy, the Dave Gallaher Cup, has since 2000 been held by the winner of the first rugby test between New Zealand and France in each calendar year.

 

 

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/dave-gallaher

 

 

 

All Blacks killed in the First World War

Name AB no. Date of Death Place of Death Age Albert Downing 176 8 Aug 1915 Gallipoli 29 Henry Dewar 175 19 Aug 1915 Gallipoli 31 Frank Wilson 166 19 Sep 1916 Somme 31 Robert Black 211 21 Sep 1916 Somme 23 George Sellars 182 7 Jun 1917 Messines 31 James Baird 190 7 Jun 1917 ‘France’ (Messines?) 23 Reginald Taylor 202 20 Jun 1917 Messines 28 James McNeece 199 21 Jun 1917 Messines 31 Dave Gallaher 97 4 Oct 1917 Passchendaele 43 ‘Jum’ Turtill 139 9 Apr 1918 France 38 Eric Harper 112 30 Apr 1918 Palestine 40 Ernest Dodd 83 11 Sep 1918 Havrincourt, France 38 Alex Ridland 164 5 Nov 1918 France 36

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
07 Nov 2013, 10:49
#2
07 Nov 2013, 10:49#2
Well said Brycy!
It is only when you go to the graveyards in Europe (and see the underground tunnels they have preserved in some memorials) that you get a sense of the horror of WW1 and what courage it took to fight in these man made nightmares - absolute insanity. We honor the dead but not the leadership that got us into such disasters. WW2 was bad also as were all the other wars but ww1 - damn that was bad!!
I don't  like it when the ABs don't wear black but for such an occasion I am glad they are honoring the fallen soldiers by wearing white.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
07 Nov 2013, 16:28
#3
07 Nov 2013, 16:28#3
 On a past visit to the Somme I was surprised that the Kiwi's who fought didn't have a memorial and us Saffa's did in Longueval. I'm surprised to see that the majority of those former All Blacks died before the Battle of Fler's.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
07 Nov 2013, 16:58
#4
07 Nov 2013, 16:58#4
Soon none will march there at all......thanks fellows.  
MO
MO(NH)Club Pro426 posts
07 Nov 2013, 17:08
#5
07 Nov 2013, 17:08#5
 Nice mark of respect good post.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
07 Nov 2013, 17:55
#6
07 Nov 2013, 17:55#6
 At the moment he was shot his former Vice Captain Billy Stead was working at his bootmakers bench when a cobblestone was flicked through the doorway by a passing horse and smashed a picture of Ghallager a shard of glass lodged in his heart .He lost 3 brothers in WW1 and was actually too old to join up but did so anyway .Strangely enough most of his medals were South African .I have been to the Menin Gate as part of a repatriation party ,deeply moving and the French people still care for all our fallen who still lie in the fields of glory having given there all .In many villages the locals have adopted a grave to care for and they pass it down as a great honor .
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
07 Nov 2013, 17:59
#7
07 Nov 2013, 17:59#7
 Thanks for that bit of history Wardad. Very moving.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
07 Nov 2013, 20:34
#8
07 Nov 2013, 20:34#8

Lovely post...lets remember them...great men. New Zealanders, Australians, English, Canadians, Irish, Scots, Welsh and South Africans. Indeed I had a great uncle(my grandads brother) from Irish descent who fought with distinction (not in France) but the Dardenelles and played international rugby for SA against the British Lions in 1910 ( a survivor).

 

When I saw the Furies singing this... 

in Dublin many years ago...the tears flowed.

 

http://youtu.be/ntt3wy-L8Ok

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
08 Nov 2013, 01:35
#9
08 Nov 2013, 01:35#9
 I think Brycy did a bang up job there ! Theres at least one more AB buried in France from WW2 ? All us colonials as the poms called us then were considered elite units so the halfwitted pommy generals like Haig  [ " Machine guns are over rated " and " theres always a place for the well bred horse in war " } proceeded to butcher them as efficiently as possible .Is anything taught in SA about the Springbok Legion ? They were returned servicemen who were all anti fascist and ant-racist As I have said before one of my heroes is the Battle of Britain ace "Sailor " Malan who is one of SA greatest fighting men ,it is a shame that his story was deliberately buried by evil fascist pricks !
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
08 Nov 2013, 01:54
#10
08 Nov 2013, 01:54#10
Yes, Wardad the older I get the less "smart" the leaders are in these wars. Not only the politicians but the military "brains". Haig... surely he has to go down as one of the most stupid generals of all time?
Anyway, I am glad the ABs are honoring those that died for their country. It will seem strange to see the ABs in white but it is a very visible and symbolic gesture. I am glad they are doing it!
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
08 Nov 2013, 03:34
#11
08 Nov 2013, 03:34#11
 Just-Win bro ,the Polish people all know about evil mongrels and endless wars eh ? Do the Poles still hate the Russians ?Yes good to see them honoring our boys ,and sadly many were just boys ,that miserable prick Haig killed so many of his own men that the British government didny want to send him more men ,the English had at least 50,000 boys 16 years old or less impressed into service and they executed some of these children when they broke and ran ,pure bastardry .....
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 04:09
#12
08 Nov 2013, 04:09#12

I do not believe deep in any true soldiers heart there's any hatred for one's enemy...yes there was eminity in Poles for Russians but it works also the other way around...but that dies with realisation,honesty and maturity...my late dad was wounded in WW2 in Libya but he had no hatred for the Germans...indeed he had a good friend he worked with at Shell Oil in Greenmarket Square Cape Town who fought on the otherside. It is only man's blind indifference (greedy politicians) to his fellow man and it applies to both sides. Sailor Malan and many others are well remembered in SA.

 

Well done to the NZ'ers you show respect for those who  fought and died in the war that was supposed to end all wars...an honourable gesture...such irony though...man still has not learnt. Sadly history repeats itself.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
08 Nov 2013, 07:10
#13
08 Nov 2013, 07:10#13

 ...yup love reading about the Great War...living next to the Army Camp now SAS base in Sth Auckland our library is chocka full of heroic and inspirational tales, soldiers diaries and the like make for a great read...

 

...prefer reading the anecdotes from the soldiers that fought rather than what some general has written to justify all the lives that were sacrificed needlessly for little or no gain... also makes for a great study of the human condition as war can bring out the best and worst qualities in people...

 

...another great WW1 yarn i was reading was about General Lettow Vorbeck...undefeated in the German East African campaign and a real character...commander of a small German army – largely composed of black troops...

 

http://timashby.com/the-german-general-who-told-hitler-to-go-screw-himself/

 

 

As his forces were dwarfed by the surrounding Allied armies, the German high command didn't think he had a chance and told him stay out of the war. Lettow-Vorbeck, however, chose to mishear his orders and immediately went to battle, handing the British their asses at the Battle of Tanga even though he was outnumbered eight to one.

 

The Perseverance:

Well, that was a good time to call it a war; his army was now getting comically small, the enemy still greatly outnumbered him and he could easily get to safety. Oh, and his superiors had specifically told him not to fight. Most men would have kicked back and taken it easy. But Lettow-Vorbeck was not most men. His solution was to cut his army off the grid completely and go guerrilla ... for years



Lettow-Vorbeck didn't really need to do any of this, remember. He was specifically forbidden to fight by his superiors, severely outnumbered and also already hidden and safely tucked away. What's more, his troops could only perform small, but still incredibly dangerous strike and flee missions that were technically unable to hurt the enemy much. But he still fought on, nagging at the Allied morale with his "anytime, anywhere" tactics, just because he could.

Oh, and he did this for the remainder of the war. That's four freaking years lugging artillery in the jungle, while also living in said jungle.



 

 

When the German Kaiser in the distant fatherland finally ended the war, Lettow-Vorbeck was still out in the bush. The second he heard the war was over, he happily surrendered to the British, presumably by stepping out of the bush right next to them and making them crap their pants. At that point, he was the only German commander to successfully invade British territory during WWI, and also one of the very few commanders in World War history who managed to go through the whole thing undefeated -- a notable achievement for someone fighting on the side that, you know, lost.



 

 

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
08 Nov 2013, 08:17
#14
08 Nov 2013, 08:17#14
 I have studied Lettow-Vorbeck and his colonial Askari troops ,he tied down enormous numbers of Entente troops with basically what he captured ,and fought an honourable campaign . The Germans even sent a Zeppelin to Africa loaded with supplies on a one way trip after which the airship itself could be cannibalized for parts .Until recently that was the longest operational flight ever .Soldiers like my old Grand Dad had enormous respect for their enemies [ a lot of veterans still wont forgive the Japanese military and cant say as I blame them ] that he fought from the Western Desert through to Trieste .The fighting in the desert was almost devoid of the worst excesses of warfare ,given the small civilian population there where fewer innocents killed too.At least the Germans have owned up to their part in some of the worst atrocities of WW2  but sadly the Japanese government refuses to ,some Japanese even think they were on the Allied side ! My best friends Dad was with some other Diggers skinny dipping on a beach outside Tobruk when a Stuka caught them on the beach naked and unarmed ,the Stuka slowed down circled them and then the long greenhouse canopy slid back and a gauntleted hand popped out and waved at them ! Off flew the Germans leaving some very relieved diggers behind scrambling to get thier kit on !
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
08 Nov 2013, 09:40
#15
08 Nov 2013, 09:40#15
Wardad & Brycy: good stories well told! Thanks guys.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 11:02
#16
08 Nov 2013, 11:02#16

None of my ancestors took part in either of the World Wars - in both they would not be seen dead fighting on the side of the English in any event.  I think their hatred of the English stemmed from the crimes against humanity committed by the English in the Anglo-Boer War.  

 

A cousin of my grandmother - General  Dan Pienaar - was commander of the South African forces in Ethiopia and Libya.   He and his mother was in the Pietermaritzburg concentration camp in the war against the English - and he was evidently not impressed when his English higher ups gave orders for attacks which could have resulted in too many losses of SA troops.   His standard comment in such cases was "Voertsek - General".   An Afrikaans term used for scaring away a dog.

 

General Smuts had to fly up north constantly to make peace between the SA commanders and the English ones.   On the way to a visit to SA  for the same purpose General Pienaar died in an aircraft accident allegedly over lake Tanganyika.   The whole family and most of the SA troops thought he was murdered by the English.   Neither the plane nor the bodies were ever found - giving rise to the impression that it was indeed a case of homicide.

 

Most SA troops in Libya had a healthy respect for Field Marshall Rommel and they wrote openly in books about it.  Rommel was a soldiers general and it is no wonder that later in the war he was murdered on Hitler's instruction.

 

Another interesting fact is that the English commanders instructed General Klopper to remain in Tobruk and never gave him any help or support - with the result that Klopper had to surrender the city to the Germans - many SA troops were captured and remained prisoners of war in Italy till near the end of the war. 

 

Looking at both world wars it is clear that greedy politicians was in fact the main reason for the conduct of both wars.   What happened after World War 1 was the dismembering of major nations and the rise of communism in Russia.   The face of Europe was changed to such an extent that the resulting chaos let directly to the rise of Hitler and the Second World War.   Who was the major gainer from that war?  The Communist who imprisoned virtually the whole of Eastern Europe under extremely cruel regimes and it took 46 years to dislodge them from Eastern Europe and in Russia.  

 

I can understand the hatred of the Poles of the Russians after the Katyn massacre and the similar case of the Hungarians after the 1956 uprising.   However, Lenin and Stalin did worst things to their own people than they ever did against anybody outside of Russia.   It is recorded that in the period 1917 to 1952 more than 52 000 000 people were killed by the state in Russia - and Russia also lost 20 000 000 lives in the Second World War. Most of those were the result of the Russians own actions.   In 1938 Stalin had all the Russian commanders higher than colonel executed - even some colonels were killed -   and when war broke out against the Germans - the army was basically leaderless and millions were killed or taken as prisoners of war  as a result of an inadequate command structure.

 

However, war is terrible and we must always remember the innocent and troops who died as a remembrance of what greedy political leaders should not be allowed to do.  However that did not stop them in the case of the Iraq war - where greed resulted in lies used as a reason to start a war that led to the death of hundreds of thousands and where order has not as yet been restored.

 

There is one thing clear and true.  History repeats itself  because of peoples inadequacy in thinking and repeating all the mistakes made in the past.               

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 11:51
#17
08 Nov 2013, 11:51#17

Interesting and good posting Mike...my dad was in Libya against Field Marshall Rommel...the Desert Fox. He was a great man and respected and he was murdered by that bastard Hitler...he was out of place in Nazi Germany but he was a professional soldier caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Very evil as the starter of wars were it brought out the best in men's character...Smuts was a great man with huge wisdom and discernment...was a Boer Leader but knew the difference between right and wrong...stood against Hitler and supported Churchill...in fact Churchill himself took counsel from him at times. A man that knew the difference and not contaminated with hatred and prejudice.

 

Stalin was a very evil man...Russians are far from this image...incidentally he was not Russian but Georgian.I should know I'm married to one...they are lovely, solid and giving people with a great dry sense of humour and intelligence...spent time in Moscow, mixed with Russian men and met many young and old...the old people are very good and kind...the young a bit cynical but when you show them respect they make good and sincere friends. The sad thing about Russia (and Georgia) is however that ill-feeling still exists between the two...in fact so bad at one stage that a rugby match between them had to be played in Turkey because of the risk of crowds turning violent. My prayers for these nations is for reconciation between them...I've met Georgians as well and found them likeable, a bit charismatic and volatile but when you show interest in them they are forthcoming and despite the fact that their country is small and relatively poor, love rugby and are surprisingly good at it...they breed great front-rowers...wrestling being a great sport there as well.

 

American propaganda is the biggest bulldust that has ever spread into the West...one only has to take a trip there to see how deluded we Westerners are.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 12:52
#18
08 Nov 2013, 12:52#18

Seb

 

The first time I met any Russian was when I met Prof Elizivata Foxcroft of UNISA - her father was a Rusian Baron who fled from Russia in 1917.  She was a highly cultured person and was an expert in the Russian language - so  much  so that after the death of Stalin - she was frequently invited to Russia to lecture in Russian at Universities there.

 

The second time was when I went to East Germany in 1973.  On a visit to the War Memorial in East Berlin there was a lot of young Russian soldiers around and they did speak German - so I chatted with them and we took photos of me with them and of them.  Extremely nice youngsters - but they could have gotten into trouble with their officers for that one. 

 

The next time was when I visited Russia in 1992.   I found the Russians to be extremely friendly and generous - despite the hard financial situation then.   I was not on an organised tour and spent time in both St Petersburg and Moscow and visited Vladimir as well.   Went inter alia to see a ballet performance in St Petersburg - an awesome experience.

 

I think the American propaganda machine is a bad thing as well.    What is amazing is that some of their own at times turn against them - like happened in the latest spy saga.   I do not think that the situation on that one will be settled easily.  Spying on the western leaders and their own and foreign people on the scale they did is extremely harmful and totally unacceptable in a country where they preach democracy and often enough do the exact opposite.

 

Incidentally I was always vary of the actions of powerful financiers in the USA.  According to historians the Communist revolt in 1917 was financed by the Rockefellers and other major financiers in the USA.   The regime was kept in charge by them and their counterparts in Western Europe until there suddenly was a turnaround when Reagan became president and Thatcher was in charge in the UK, with Kohl as premier in West Germany.   They cut off the financial resources that kept the Communist regime in Russia going and the results became evident shortly afterwards.

 

One wonder sometimes about the Vietnam War as well - the Communist bogeyman  was the reason given - but there was a slump in the US economy and the easiest way to restore the economy was to get the weapons industry going and soon enough the economy made a turn for the better, but a huge slum occurred in 1973 - after the Vietnam War in practice ended.  There were serious allegations that the Americans were arming both sides and kept the war going on longer than it would have lasted without it.

 

Mozart will not like what the two of us wrote on this one - so expect some outcry about our comments from him.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 13:52
#19
08 Nov 2013, 13:52#19

In the old Victoria Hall at Maritzburg College on the roll of honour were names of men that lost their lives in the Zulu Wars, the Boer War (both English and Boer), WW1, WW2, Korean War, the SA Border War, the Rhodesia Front and Vietnam (not sure I think exchange student) and perhaps others I cannot remember...must go and check-up...my memory is fading.

 

I also remember that when the Boer War started there were a few Afrikaans (Boer) lads that were intermingled with the vast majority of English boys and left to go and fight for their cause. They however had English friends (what a dilemma) and it was agreed that College boys won't shoot College boys so it was arranged that the Boer boys would wear a red band (on their predominately khaki clothing) to indentify them as fellow colleagues.

 

One of my mates, "Fido" Smythe dad won the Victoria Cross (Sir Quentin Smythe)...I think, if I remember correctly he was the sole survivor of some skirmish with the Germans. Fido and us boys would often break bounds when juniors at boarding school and go fishing in the Umsinduzi river for barbel, eels and scalies (natal yellowfish) using flying ants (termites) for bait. One day we caught a fairly large barbel (catfish). As it was still alive when we got back to Shepstone House we put it in a bath filled with water. We left it there when we had to go to prep but later there was a huge scream from the matron who discovered it...lolz

 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 14:54
#20
08 Nov 2013, 14:54#20

Seb

 

Nice one those.  

 

The tragedy was that there were English speaking soldiers in the Boer Commandos as well - mostly from families settled in the  republics for years - and also some Irish lads.   When caught by the English - they were executed without even a trial.

 

Pressident Steyn's wife was Scottish and General Botha's wife English - so the divisions were not always clear cut.  General Smuts wife was a problem case though - at least for him.   She had  every time when she gave birth the ZAR flag put over the bed - so that she would give birth under the ZAR flag.  Not really a forgiving person that one.

 

An interesting comment was made by General Smuts about Marie Koopmans de Wet after her death and that gives you any idea about his thinking as well:-

 

"“Wie die haar gekent heeft, kan haar nooit vergeten! – De tedere sympathie in alle leed, dit milde hand in alle nooddrift, zo wel bekend aan Transvaalsche weduween en wezen, dat warme hart voor al wat schoon en edel was, die hartstochtelijke liefde het Afrikaansche volk, die heldenmoed, welke in dagen van storm en gevaar – toe zelfs rotzen wankelden – de Afrikaanssche vlag omhoog hielt aan Tafelbergs voet.”

 

Another true story about General Smuts was that during the Convention there were some complication with wording of a clause in the agreement ultimately signed and Smuts was asked to amend the clause.   He reworded it - but through phraseology change did not change the actual meaning of the original.   John X Merriman the Prime Minister of the Cape - got up slowly and said :  "Jannie must be careful - or Jannie will end up in smuts"

 

Merriman was another interesting person.  His father was the Archbishop of Grahamstown and he became a member of the Cape Parliament and in total was a member of Parliament for 55 years.   He was already a member of the Cabinet when he wanted to marry a woman by the name of Vintzent.   However, her parents - the owners of the Prince Vintzent shop in Mossel Bay, various farms  and a member of the Cape Parliament as well -  did not think he was good enough for her and tried the separation method by sending her to Europe for six months - but it did not work out at all and on his return they got married.  Merriman was a very acerbic person and came up with some real classics during his career - it was him that called the committee of Milner responsible for governing of the Transvaal after the War - the Milner Kindergarten.

 

When doing some work in Durban in roundabout 1980 - I et an elderly lady in a low cost hotel in Point Road and she asked me to talk to her husband.   He was Irish and very old and told me his father owned a house next two the one occupied by President Kruger.  His father apparently regularly had coffee with President Kruger and he told me how he was sitting on the old President lap when he was small.

 

Kruger was a difficult person for the English to negotiate with - he knew English perfectly - but in meetings always made no comment after the English representative made a comment - he waited for it to be translated and then answered in Dutch - which in turn had to be translated.  A long and tedious meeting always resulted from that.   At one such meeting the British High Commissioner was suffering from gout and the old President after the meeting feeling sorry for him said to him in English that his personal physician - Dr Leyds - was an excellent doctor and advised him to see him before his departure for Cape Town. 

 

A few of my history stories

 

    

 

 

 

 

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
08 Nov 2013, 15:21
#21
08 Nov 2013, 15:21#21
 So Kitchener buns would still be off the menu then ? he was brutally efficient for an English general ,bet not too many tears were shed in SA when a U-boat bagged him.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
08 Nov 2013, 15:42
#22
08 Nov 2013, 15:42#22
 History never repeats itself, Mike. It can't. No circumstances are ever the same, the protagonists are never the same and the time has passed in the blink of an eye. So that's why it can't be repeated. It's a statement that grates with Historians. All that can happen is that we hope people learn from the mistakes made in the past and are not foolish enough to make similar errors. Sadly, that seems not to be the case, particularly where Wars are concerned.

With regards General Haig, whilst History cannot be completely re-written, he has been used as a patsy for many of the errors made during a hideous conflict. WW1 was a disaster from start to finish, the biggest family argument that went wrong one will ever see, but I'm afraid he has been hung out to dry as the man to take all blame for all military failure and turned into a total buffoon. The reality was a little different. This one is a case of don't always believe what you have read/heard thus far. Dig a little deeper.

And Mike, no-one was fighting for the English in either World War. They were fighting against German tyranny so I'm afraid that argument falls at it's first hurdle. If your family chose not to fight, so be it. But do not use their hatred of the English as an excuse. It was not a fight for England, it was a fight against Germany. If they were willing to let those things happen to others in the world simply because the English were involved in the fight against the Germans, well.

My Mum comes from a Military family. Her maternal line goes as far back as we can trace in terms of fighting for the Crown and her Great Grandfather was a Master of the Royal Horse and a Chelsea Pensioner, you might have heard of those They have a special uniform and reside at a special Home, but he was actually allowed to live outside with his wife, which was quite unusual in those days. Anyway, his children were born all over the Empire whilst he was on duty, my Great Grandfather being born in Sierra Leone !!
My Great Grandfather was an Officer and PT Instructor. After returning from SA,  his sons were at the Military Academy, not Sandhurst, we're not that posh , and that is where he left them when he was sent to France during WW1. Whilst he was at the Front, he was called to find that my Great Uncle, a 14 year old at the time, had run away from the Academy, enlisted and lied about his age and by pure chance, had found himself at the same place as his Dad ! He was the Commanding Officer, so had been called to see the new boy ! He was going to send him straight back to England, but he just said he would run away again because he was adamant he wanted to fight. So, he made the decision that he would keep him there with him, so he knew he would be safe and he could watch over him. And, the two of them went through that whole, horrendous experience together, without so much as a scratch.
But, in 1917, about 18 months after my Great Grandmother had given birth to my Nan, she died from Spanish Flu. Leaving my Great Grandfather a Widower, stuck over in France. My Nan was sent to Stratford upon Avon to be brought up by two governesses until the age of 12 and the boys both ended up fighting in WW2, as did my Grandfather.....who became a Regimental Sergeant Major and also escaped without a scratch ! My Great Grandfather married again and sadly died before I got to meet him and hear his stories. I didn't get to meet my Great Uncles either. One of them died from TB contracted on the forced march after he was captured and held prisoner in a German Camp. I have some of the letters he wrote to my Nan. The conditions and their treament was appallling.
In the village I grew up in, a lot of them men had many stories to tell. One was in Japan, one Italy, many in France.....we learnt a lot as kids from our Grandparents and their friends. There was a great deal of respect.


Wars are terrible things and it's only right that we do remember the fallen every November.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 16:02
#23
08 Nov 2013, 16:02#23

I am sure the Vietnam war (as was Iraq in Bush juniors case...not Desert Storm as Bush senior had fair reasons because Sadam's invasion) was an economic war primarly...there might have been a few apparent minor reasons but this was window dressing...a red-herring you might say...so common today and blinds the masses.

 

Iron and steel industries boomed in the USA during Nixon's Vietnam ventures...steel shares went through the roof. The armament and related industries demand these resources obviously...not to mention the oil and propellant industries...the list goes on and on.

 

USA need's a war now (forget about Afganistan...that's only a start). If you understand economics and are honest, a debt ridden country (overborrowed and overlended...whether private or public sector) must forever be on the treadmill to keep the wheels turning. The trouble is man is too stupidly greedy to see these things and balance is never properly understood or initiated. America has always had hidden agendas...the meaning of integrity is not understood and unheard of word...Hollywood promotes cheats and gangsters...in America you can do crime and become filthy rich....then you are winner and people turn a blind eye BUT DON"T GET CAUGHT because they will turn on you as quickly as a rattlesnake strike and tear you to shreads...hypocrisy is the huge sin in America today...they are forever trying to remove the specks out of the eyes of other nations but forgetting to remove the beams from their own. Religion is not true Christianity but a perversion and manipulation of what's written in God's word...evangelists like Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer and many others do not represent the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ but have changed meanings and manipulated words to feather their own nests.

Sorry my American brothers and sisters, I am not against you but your greedy politicians...I hate cheats, lying and dishonest ploys.

 

Weapons of mass destruction??? I have a picture of Bush junior looking through field glasses (with the protection caps still on...lolz).

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
08 Nov 2013, 18:02
#24
08 Nov 2013, 18:02#24
 Haig was a dangerous buffoon who symbolizes all that was wrong with the British officer class ,anyone who thinks machine guns are overated is a fool pure and simple [ [and has obviously never been near one facing the pointy end ].haig was lauding success on the Somme as 60,000 of his men were cut down before lunch ,meanwhile the French who had learned some lessons gained all their objectives at a fraction of the cost .Churchill is not held in high regard by Aussies and Kiwis either after the Gallipoli fiasco [ the British soldiers were pretty good ,not so their officers ] the British officers left their men sitting on the beach having a nice cuppa tea and when they finally decided to move it was too damn late ,they could have strolled to their objectives which they later tried and failed to take at huge cost of life .And those Turks werent the decent hard fighting men everyone thinks they are ,if they captured you without a German officer present they butchered you out of hand ,to mollify folks back home they presented them as tough but fair [ one English company was captured and butchered to a man ]In WW1 I had a Great  grandparent fighting for the King and another fighting for the Kaiser ! The WW1 Germans were no worse than the Entente ,colonial powers all of them as for the WW2 version hitler was as evil as it gets .
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 18:16
#25
08 Nov 2013, 18:16#25

Becs

 

I refer to the fact that people keep on making the same mistakes and they do not learn from similar mistakes made in the past.   My grandparents and parents did not know much about the cruelties of the Germans - since not much was reported in the Afrikaans news media that they read.   Insofar as cruelty is concerned, they felt it on their own skin and that makes it much harder than what media reports could do.

 

There was a rumour doing the rounds that some SA soldiers betrayed General Kichener's whereabouts to the Germans so that they knew he was on the ship that was torpedoed.       

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Nov 2013, 18:18
#26
08 Nov 2013, 18:18#26

Wardad

 

Nothing new about the Gallipoli issue.  The English generals in East Africa tried the same with the SA troops - that is why General Pienaar in effect told them to F-off.       

CA
canrugbyClub Pro640 posts
08 Nov 2013, 21:38
#27
08 Nov 2013, 21:38#27
Let's remember all who fought and died in both wars. I'm proud of all who went over to help fight. Some played a small role, some played a big role. But it didn't matter. They all helped.

I'll "toot my own horn" a bit. From a Canadian Perspective we had one of the best infantries in WWI. We may not have been the biggest, but our tactics and training were well above most countries at the time.

For those who are interested, or don't know, the major Canadian battles in WWI and WWII were Vimy Ridge, and Juno beach. Obviously there's more, but those two are probably the most talked about. Canadians also fought in Hong Kong in WWII against the Japanese.

Here's some Canadians at the battle of Vimy Ridge in WWI.


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 22:24
#28
08 Nov 2013, 22:24#28

Canadian soldiers were real heros...their contribution was enormous...really brave and gallant men.

 

My great uncle Cliff (grandad's eldest brother) was a hero at Gallipoli (Dardanelles). He was at SACS in Cape Town. He also was a Springbok rugby player...played 2 tests against the British Isles in 1910...SA won 2 tests out of 3 played then.

 

The SACS web site has the following details:
http://sacsrugby.com/history/famous-sacs-players-1891-1945/

"Cliff RIORDAN also the son of an Irish Doctor who settled in Colesberg and
married there. The RIORDANs had ten children, of whom Clifford Atherton was
one, born on Christmas Eve 1885. During World War I, handsome Cliff RIORDAN
rose to the rank of captain in the Royal Army service Corps after retaining
at Aldershot and saw action in the horrible Dardanelles. Later he became a
magistrate in Pietermaritzburg, a sports journalist in South America and a
specialist in ice skating equipment in London where he died on 7 February 1955.


BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
08 Nov 2013, 22:33
#29
08 Nov 2013, 22:33#29

 

..can rugby it was the Canadians that relieved the Anzacs following the blackest day in NZ military history. In a series of well-prepared, but costly, attacks in atrocious conditions, Canadian troops finally occupied the ruins of Passchendaele village on 6 November.

 

For Kiwis it makes for depressing reading that fated attack where over 800 NZers including the AB captain Dave Gallaher ( whose name dons the cup we're playing for today) were killed in what was effectively a suicide mission......

 

Preparations for the 12 October attack on Bellevue Spur, especially the positioning of the supporting artillery, could not be completed in time because of the mud. As a result, the creeping barrage was weak and ragged.

 Some of the shells dropped short, causing casualties among the New Zealanders waiting to advance.

To make matters worse, the earlier artillery bombardment had failed to breach the obstacle presented by the German barbed wire. Another key target, the Germans' concrete pillboxes with their deadly machine-guns, were also left largely undamaged.

 

Troops from 2nd Brigade and 3rd (Rifle) Brigade advanced at 5.25 a.m. in drizzle that soon turned to driving rain. As they struggled towards the ridge in front of them, they found their way blocked by the uncut barbed wire. Exposed to raking German machine-gun fire from both the front and flank, the New Zealanders were pinned down in shell craters in front of the wire. A few determined individuals tried to get through the barrier, but they were quickly killed.

 

Orders came for another push at 3 p.m., but this was mercifully postponed and then cancelled. The troops eventually fell back to positions close to their start line. For badly wounded soldiers lying in the mud, the aftermath of the battle was a private hell; many died before they could be rescued.

 

The toll was horrendous. There were more than 2700 New Zealand casualties, of which 45 officers and 800 men were either dead or lying mortally wounded between the lines. In terms of lives lost in a single day, this remains the blackest day in New Zealand’s post-1840 existence....

 

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/new-zealanders-in-belgium/passchendaele

 

CA
canrugbyClub Pro640 posts
08 Nov 2013, 22:49
#30
08 Nov 2013, 22:49#30
 Brycy.

Wow. Actually never knew that about the Kiwis. That's devastating.

One of our(Canada's) famous battles was the battle of Ypres. This battle is where Canadian John McCrae wrote the poem "In Flanders fields".

Don't know if everyone else sung that in School, or has heard of it. B ut as kids, we had to memorize it in Elementary school just like our national Anthem.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 Nov 2013, 23:10
#31
08 Nov 2013, 23:10#31
 Something for the Kiwis:

Published on 25 Aug 2012

Haka is used throughout New Zealand by many, not only M?ori, to demonstrate their collective thoughts. There is a haka for each of the Services, as well as the Defence Force. Units with the NZ Army have their own haka. This video shows the soldiers of 2/1 RNZIR Battalion performing their Unit haka, powerfully acknowledging the lives and feats of their fallen comrades as they come onto the Unit's parade ground. It is also an emotive farewell for they will leave via the waharoa (the carved entrance way) for the very last time.

Haka --sometimes termed a posture dance could also be described as a chant with actions. There are various forms of haka; some with weapons some without, some have set actions others may be 'free style.' Haka is used by M?ori (indigenous people of New Zealand) for a myriad of reasons; to challenge or express defiance or contempt, to demonstrate approval or appreciation, to encourage or to discourage, to acknowledge feats and achievements, to welcome, to farewell, as an expression of pride, happiness or sorrow. There is almost no inappropriate occasion for haka; it is an outward display of inner thoughts and emotions. Within the context of an occasion it is abundantly clear which emotion is being expressed.




Some random pics:




GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
08 Nov 2013, 23:33
#32
08 Nov 2013, 23:33#32

Thanks for all the great postings guys and gals...indeed interesting and absorbing reading...we might all have slightly different views and circumstances but there is one thing we all have in common...we are eternally grateful to all those that fought and served in these great conflicts and made it possible to live a reasonable life (not exactly free from all lifes problems and conflicts) but at least a far cry of what might have happened. Lets remember the men and women who unselfishly did their duty. I salute all you great people.

 

As I said before a great gesture by the NZ Rugby Union for displaying their respect by wearing white strip and red poppy on jerseys against France tomorrow. RIP in peace you men and women of honour.

 

I love that verse that the Fureys sing in the Greenfields of France...the warm summer breeze on the greenfields of France makes the the red poppies dance.

 

Tomorrow there won't be a warm summer breeze climatically but in our hearts may the red poppies dance.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
09 Nov 2013, 03:37
#33
09 Nov 2013, 03:37#33
 True Seb some awesome posts ,thanks Ceradyne for the you-tube link .One thing the Army does well is honor its Dead ,I have been in the bearer party twice and the whole ceremony is imbued with emotion ,history and reverence ,civilians are never prepared when the gun party fires though ! The first lad we carried through Melbourne on a gun carriage then on our shoulders slow  marched to his final resting place At Fromelles we reinterred a Digger who sadly is probably still known only to God ,and I urge anyone visting France or Belgium to make the time to visit the Menin gate it is incredibly moving .Could you imagine the outcry if nearly a Thousand men where chopped down in less than a day ? And from a nation of less than a million people ? The Aussies TWICE lost more than 5000 men in a single day and based on todays population it would be like losing 4000 and 20000 men respectively ......horrifying.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Nov 2013, 07:42
#34
09 Nov 2013, 07:42#34
The movie industry unfortunately distorts a lot of the history. For example in the Great Escape, there were no Americans involved. The USA prisoners were all moved to a separate camp weeks before the escape. The fellow in charge of planning and directing the whole thing, the mysterious X, was a South African. He escaped with the main group, but was captured and was one of those infamously killed by the Gestapo. 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
09 Nov 2013, 10:33
#35
09 Nov 2013, 10:33#35

I can remember when at school a discussion occured about the Steve McQueen movie...If I recall a mate Tony Egner (ex Maritzburg College rugby and cricket captain...also played Natal) had an uncle who was involved in this incredible escape (hope I'm correct Tony if you're reading this...maybe you can tell us the story)

 

But Moz is quite right...total distortion...the rubbish that comes out of movies...Hollywood is a cesspit of lies...it's amazing the power this has on the gullible man in the street.

 

It was a tale of such extraordinary courage, drama and tragedy that it was immortalised in the film The Great Escape.

Now the ageing pages of a Second World War diary have revealed an even more remarkable first-hand account of the circumstances of the famous prisoner of war break-out.

For as 77 determined Allied officers made their bid for freedom from beneath the wire fences of Stalag Luft III, another British serviceman still within the camp was documenting their exploits in a meticulously-kept diary.

Revealed: Coded plans for The Great Escape were found in Flight Lieutenant Ted Nestor's detailed diary

Captured: Flt Lt Nestor was sent to the prison when he was shot down over Germany aged just 23

Flight Lieutenant Ted Nestor wrote about the escape in coded form - calling it 'The Spring Handicap' with '100 under starters orders'.

Later he added a diagram showing the hut from which the escape was launched, with red dotted lines showing the route of a tunnel leading under the camp fences and to the outside, trees marked in green - entitled 'the tunnel through which the escape was made'.

Stalag Luft III was a Luftwaffe-run PoW prison for 10,000 captured servicemen in Silesia, now Poland.

Flt Lt Nestor was just 23 when he was shot down over Germany on a bombing raid in August 1943 and sent to the camp.

Over the next year-and-a-half the young navigator kept a detailed record of daily life there, including his comrades’ dramatic escape plan – one of the most famous acts of heroism of the war.

The escape, later made famous in a blockbuster film starring Steve McQueen, was on March 24, 1944.

Flt Lt Nestor, who was born in Waterloo near Liverpool, writes about the ‘Great Escape’ in code, as if it were a horse race, describing how just prior to the escape the men were ‘under starter’s orders’.

In a later entry, which he titles ‘The Escape’, he records in detail the size of the tunnel, where the exit was and how they learned that many of the escapees had been killed.

Of the 77 who made it through the tunnel, 50 were shot.

The diary contains meticulous plans for the escape

He wrote: 'On May 25th, the cremated remains of 29 of the deceased officers were returned to camp.'

As well as the escape, the diary also chronicles daily life in the camp, from how they distilled their own alcohol from fruit sent by the Red Cross to weather charts recording daily temperatures.

A coloured cartoon on one page shows two prisoners working on their contraband 'Kriegie Brew' - a potent alcohol distilled from raisins.

Flt Lt Nestor drew a cartoon of PoW's drinking 'Kriegie brew' - a lethal alcohol made from fruit sent to them by the Red Cross

It is filled with cartoons, jokes, drawings, paintings, photographs, poems and written observations about daily life - including the bartering system called Foodacco.

Another cartoon shows the soldiers in training, being given advice on how easy escape would be, whilst another shows the reality with barbed wire, guard dogs and armed guards.

With a very British sense of humour the serviceman even wrote of his own capture by German troops, titling his entry 'For You The War is Over!'.

This cartoon shows the PoWs managed to maintain a sense of humour despite their situation

Flt Lt Nestor's daughter Sharon Cottam said: 'I just wish I could tell Dad how incredibly proud I am of him.'

Flt Lt Nestor's story is the subject of a two-part regional BBC documentary, featuring his daughter Sharon Cottam, who retraced her father's footsteps to Poland and discovered his own service during the war.

The serviceman, a shy headmaster and father of four after the war, died 19 years ago and his diary remained locked away in a drawer until recently when a family friend realised its significance.

Mrs Cottam, from Stockport said: 'My dad never talked about anything to do with the war when I was younger.

'But I remember as a child picking up dad's diary and being fascinated by all these little drawings of planes and little stick figures and at that time, I didn't realise the significance of what my dad had done in the war.

'If any of us had a school project on the war he would say "go and look at the diaries".'

She said they had even watched The Great Escape together.

'He used to say "that's ridiculous" or "that didn't happen", I don't think I thought much if it at the time, but I knew as I got older that he had been a PoW.

'I don't think he physically took part in digging the tunnel, but I think he definitely was part of the group involved in planning the escape.'

The diary contains detailed plans of the 77 soldiers' escape from the PoW camp

Her father rejected the suggestion that he publish his diaries, saying 'non-one's going to be interested'.

But after his death, his family treasured them, little realising just how many people would be very interested a few years later.

This cartoon shows how the men were willing to try anything to escape, including hiding in the cart taking out the camp waste

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
09 Nov 2013, 11:16
#36
09 Nov 2013, 11:16#36
 

 The Great Escape - another great story with not such a great ending.

 Only three escapees made it safely back to England but the three Kiwis that took part in that infamous escape were hunted down,recaptured and murdered with the rest.

 

Flight Lieutenant Arnold George Christensen of the Royal New Zealand Air Force was one of 76 Allied airmen who tunnelled out of the notorious "escape proof" Prisoner of War (POW) camp, Stalag Luft III on March 24-25, 1944.

 

Christensen, a decorated 21-year-old from Hastings, along with an Aussie comrade Squadron Leader James Catanach, who spoke fluent German, and two Norwegians, had made it from deep inside enemy territory to the coastal German town of Flensburg.

But with around 100,000 Nazis scouring the country for them, they were spotted and arrested before being interrogated by the fearsome Gestapo.

 

After trying without success to break the captured men, Major Johannes Post and Oskar Schmidt of the Gestapo drove them into the countryside close to the border of Germany and neutral Denmark and executed them on March 29.

Acting on direct orders from a furious Adolf Hitler, 50 of the escaped men were murdered, including Christensen and two fellow Kiwis, Flying Officer Porokoru Patapu (Johnny) Pohe and Squadron Leader John Williams DFC (Distinguished Flying Cross).

 

 

  A new book by English author Simon Read tells the story of the remarkable manhunt by a detective-sergeant from Blackpool after the war to track down the merciless killers.

Frank McKenna, a member of the Special Investigation Branch (SIB) of the RAF Police dubbed 'Sherlock Holmes', criss-crossed post-war Europe with Wing Commander Wilfred 'Freddie' Bowes on their impassioned crusade.

 

"Each murder case proved to have its own challenges, as they pursued every clue in the search for justice," Mr Read writes in a Daily Mail serialisation of his book, 'Human Game: Hunting the Great Escape Murderers'.

By May 1947, they had tracked down 329 suspects - 23 of whom were directly complicit in the Great Escape killings.

 

And soon afterwards, they trapped the man responsible for slaying Christensen.

The commandant of the holding facility in Minden called McKenna to say that the North West Europe War Crimes Unit had just brought in a man working as a haulage contractor.

"The man's name was Johannes Pohlmann, but he had been identified by a witness as former Gestapo officer Johannes Post. McKenna went to see the prisoner, and pulled from his tunic a picture of Post," Mr Read writes.

 

"The face was thinner - but the eyes and prominent chin left no doubt in his mind."

His cover blown, the "arrogant and sneering" Post freely admitted to knowing all about the murders of Christensen and his three mates.

He even admitted that the last word the Australian Catanach had uttered was, 'Why?'

Post and 17 others went on trial at the British Military Court in Hamburg in July 1947 charged with committing war crimes by killing and ordering to kill POWs who had escaped from Stalag Luft III.

 

All the defendants in what was known as the 'Sagan case' denied the charges, but were all found guilty.

Post and 13 others were sentenced to hang.

"Six months later, on gallows built by the British Army's Royal Engineers, the 14 Sagan murderers went to their deaths at the end of a rope, bringing to an end one of the most extraordinary manhunts of the 20th century," writes Mr Read.

 

The ashes of the three New Zealanders, along with the other 47 murdered men, are interred at Poznan Old Garrison Cemetery in Poland, the former site of Stalag Luft III which they escaped.

— END OF THREAD —

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