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FORUM / RUGBY /  Lions: All Flash and No Substance?

Lions: All Flash and No Substance?

Started by Augenöffner23 REPLIES702 VIEWS· 23 Jul 2018, 15:26
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AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
23 Jul 2018, 15:26
#1
23 Jul 2018, 15:26#1

Going into the knockout stages of Vodacom Super Rugby, the Lions should be asking themselves what they have actually achieved in all their years of dominating South African rugby.

Tomorrow’s quarterfinal against the Jaguares at Ellis Park marks the beginning in earnest of the Lions’ quest to qualify for a third successive final in the competition, following seasons in which they were the best domestic side by a considerable distance.

But as insulting as it may sound in some quarters – especially Johannesburg – one has to ask what it has all been in aid of.

Two successive Super Rugby finals; three SA Conference “titles”; a ridiculous record against the domestic sides (played 22, lost one, drawn one); and the enthralling rugby played along the way are nothing to be sneered at.

To answer Maximus’ question in the film Gladiator, we are entertained, but where are the trophies? Are the current Lions players – some of whom will go down as the franchise’s greatest – happy with being remembered for having only played attractive rugby than having actually won anything?

If this sounds harsh on the Lions, consider that since coming back from Super Rugby relegation as the dominant force in SA rugby, they have only won one Currie Cup title, which has created the strange narrative of a team that does well in franchise rugby but not domestically.

The mitigating fact there – not having their top players available during the Currie Cup due to their commitments to Japanese club rugby – may well provide clues to why the Lions have fallen short when it comes to winning titles.

Through European or Japanese contracts, the players who toughed it out when the Lions were relegated have been rewarded tenfold for their loyalty. The catch is that while entire careers have been built and a lot of money has been made from those rewards, suddenly having everything from having been down and out may have dimmed their collective motivation.

The legacies of great teams are made on trophies won, not how much money their players made.

A great example of this is the Bulls, who won all three of the Super Rugby finals they contested, this when the competition was still considered to be strength versus strength and not the current cross-conference mess it has become.

A lot of those Bulls players also formed the core of the Bok team and went on to win a World Cup, Tri-Nations and a British and Irish Lions series, while with the exception of Malcolm Marx and Franco Mostert, few of the Lions players can say their domestic form has transferred as seamlessly to international rugby.

In a way the Lions have also found ways to sabotage their chances of winning in the couple of years they have been within range.

In 2016 there was the decision to send an under-strength side to play the Jaguares, which lost the Lions the top spot on the log and meant a final in New Zealand. And long before Kwagga Smith’s first half red card in last year’s home final, the distraction had already come in the form of news that their inspirational coach Johann Ackermann was leaving for Gloucester.

The Lions have also been guilty of wanting too many chances to take their chance. If you look at the last three winners, the Highlanders, the Hurricanes and the Crusaders, they all made sure they won when they got to the final because they didn’t know when the opportunity would come again.

The reason the question of legacy has become shrill for the Lions is the rumours of a player exodus and coach Swys de Bruin’s possible permanent move to the Springboks at the end of this Super Rugby season.

This means the Lions will be rebuilding next year regardless of whether they win or not. Now might as good a time as any to rid themselves of a reputation for being all flash and no substance.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
23 Jul 2018, 16:14
#2
23 Jul 2018, 16:14#2
Winning the SA conference for 3 successive years is no substance? One loss, in 3 seasons against SA opposition...
If they make this years SuperXV final, it will be 3 seasons in a row. Sure this year, the conference system has benefited them, but not so the last 2 years.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2018, 16:26
#3
23 Jul 2018, 16:26#3

Like the Lions to have a mobile enforcer lock to compliment Mostert. Also play Kwagga from the bench. Great pity Rohan not available.

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
23 Jul 2018, 19:22
#4
23 Jul 2018, 19:22#4

What do you mean when you say the lions didn't benefit from the conference system last year?

You didn't play the top 4 out of 5 teams in the comp and were gifted the home final and you still couldn't win it.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
23 Jul 2018, 19:40
#5
23 Jul 2018, 19:40#5

You have a great point. The conference system sucks. I remember most people hated it before it was implemented. Just the idea was a hell nawww! Only one season where it actually correlated with how the teams were actually performing. 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
26 Jul 2018, 08:34
#6
26 Jul 2018, 08:34#6

Lol no substance.

In that case we may as well scrap the competition entirely since by default nobody else has any substance either.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
26 Jul 2018, 08:50
#7
26 Jul 2018, 08:50#7

Silly article Plum, Lions have no substance. What a load of BS

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
26 Jul 2018, 10:03
#8
26 Jul 2018, 10:03#8

Beans, it wasn't Plum who posted the article. 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
26 Jul 2018, 11:03
#9
26 Jul 2018, 11:03#9

He knows Blue.

He was agreeing with saying it's a silly a rticle.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
26 Jul 2018, 13:34
#10
26 Jul 2018, 13:34#10
@Crusadersfan, the Lions actually did better the year they played all the New Zealand teams, so it is not a big difference. 
The Crusaders are very good, as are the Hurricanes. These are both teams that could win at Ellis Park in the final. 
The others well are not good enough, to win away. At least not consistently. The forward packs of the Chief'are fetchers only, so when things get physical they are nowhere, with the Highlander forwards also having soft underbellies. 
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
26 Jul 2018, 14:02
#11
26 Jul 2018, 14:02#11

They are boosted. All players are by result quota players. This team, due to political manipulation, might end as champion. This will damage the little credibility SR was left with.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jul 2018, 14:51
#12
26 Jul 2018, 14:51#12

Lurker 

Where did you get that article from?  Please enlighten us all.    

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 Jul 2018, 23:13
#13
26 Jul 2018, 23:13#13
According to a much self-esteemed member of this forum the Lions style of play is "netball".  As he is a SA poster I will defer to his judgement on this one occasion
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jul 2018, 00:16
#14
27 Jul 2018, 00:16#14

That article - where did you get it.Lurker?  Leave it there - because it really is BS   You must be happy should the Lions lose on Saturday playing - what you described as -"netball" rugby.   .    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Jul 2018, 01:44
#15
27 Jul 2018, 01:44#15
Many good points Lurker, so far it has been complete RSA dominance but with no kick forward....no titles, limited impact on the Bok game plan and only one Bok number one choice. It's an odd one, but the Lions could put this behind them with a Super title....with a bit of help, they may get that chance. It's quite a different dominance to that of the HM Bools who not only fairly won 3 titles, but also established the template for the last great year in SA rugby, 2009.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Jul 2018, 08:30
#16
27 Jul 2018, 08:30#16

Living in the past - what a farce.   Meyer was magnificent - the :Lions are BS compared to them.   The wonderful Meyer with his non-existent game plan.   I think you must check your facts about Meyer being the Head coach when they won the three titles.    They won it twice with him as coach.   

Anyway he was a flop as a national coach with his stupid team selections and his non-existent game plan.  

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
27 Jul 2018, 08:38
#17
27 Jul 2018, 08:38#17

Not entirely true Moz, Meyer's Bulls only won the title once, in 2007. T hat year, the Reds did them a huge solid by playing so kak that the Bulls managed to put a cricket score past them to make up the highly unlikely points difference they needed to get into the knock out matches. Also, Meyer's Bulls only scraped the win in the final against the Sharks compliments of a missed touchline kick by F Steyn, if memory serves me correctly, and a moment of magic from Habana. 


They won in 2007, but by the skin of their teeth, they were hardly dominant. Dominance followed, but that was with Ludike as coach. 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
27 Jul 2018, 10:54
#18
27 Jul 2018, 10:54#18
The Bulls had a very strong team on paper in this era.
Most of the forwards were 1st choice Springboks, and they had Fourie Dupreez- with Habana on the wing. 
Even Pieter Devilliers looked good with this crew. 
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
27 Jul 2018, 11:11
#19
27 Jul 2018, 11:11#19

That was a hell of a strong team SB, Matfield, Bakkies, Habana, Du Preez, Guthro, Danie Russouw (brilliant utility forward) all arguably the best in their positions in the world at the time, and all in their prime at the same time . Add to that players like Spies, Wickus Van Heerden (One of the most underrated players ever), Olivier. That really was a fantastic batch of players. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Jul 2018, 14:30
#20
27 Jul 2018, 14:30#20
The HM Super winning team.....is this really a great team? 2007 Super14 Final. BULLS: FB 15 Johan Roets RW 14 Akona Ndungane OC 13 JP Nel IC 12 Wynand Olivier LW 11 Bryan Habana FH 10 Derick Hougaard SH 9 Fourie du Preez N8 8 Pierre Spies OF 7 Wikus van Heerden BF 6 Pedrie Wannenburg RL 5 Victor Matfield (c) LL 4 Bakkies Botha TP 3 Rayno Gerber HK 2 Gary Botha LP 1 Gurthro Steenkamp To me the outside backs apart from Habana are weak....the front row aprt from Steenkamp isn't test class.....and the loosies are serviceable, but not stellar. My own reaction is.....how the hell did HM manage to win Super Rugby with this lot.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Jul 2018, 11:37
#21
28 Jul 2018, 11:37#21

Mozart rating of players is inconsistent,  Take one example - Steenkamp.   When Meyer selected Fatso he was all in favour.   In 2007 Steenkamp was a much better player than in 2012-3.

In 2007 the Botha - Matfield lock combination was top class.   All three of the loosies played for the Springboks - so did 9,10,11,12, 13 and 144\.   

So your assessment is as per normal utter BS.   Either that or Jake hitye was loony to select the for the Springbok team.   What rubbish - will you please think carefully before posting tripe on site,  

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
28 Jul 2018, 20:40
#22
28 Jul 2018, 20:40#22

Mozart is right, this team wasn't filled with superstars all over, but there was a group of useful players. Botha, Olivier, Wikus, Pedrie, Arkona and Roets were productive. Hougaard was also very useful. It was nowhere near as talented as the team from 2009-2010. Olivier and Spies had yet to really reach their peaks. So, it was the year of a great team starting to come into its own. Meyer layed down a foundation that benefited the Boks for nearly 10 years. It was a great achievement by Meyer, especially given how loaded their opponents were. They had to score something like 68 points to secure qualification but put up 92 points on the Reds! Great, great coaching!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Jul 2018, 21:10
#23
28 Jul 2018, 21:10#23

According to a much self-esteemed member of this forum the Lions style of play is "netball".  As he is a SA poster I will defer to his judgement on this one occasion

JW you must be wise and should always defer to Beeno superior judgement! Trusting you do not associa te the lions scum with netball ou JW!

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
28 Jul 2018, 21:52
#24
28 Jul 2018, 21:52#24

The team was good, but it became better in 2008-2010. Some of the weaker players in the 2007 team were rooted out.


Johan Roets- Solid at best. Not international standard. 6/10

Akona Ndungane- A good SuperRugby player, albeit not test standard. Had brains, but lacked out and out pace.  7/10

 JP Nel-  ranged from poor to crap.  5.5/10

Wynand Olivier- Played very well for the Bulls. Was the understudy to Jean Devilliers at the Boks. Was often the best centre in SA at SuperRugby level- albeit he never carried the same form to international level. 7.5 /10

Bryan Habana- World Player of the year in 2017. The best-attacking wing the Boks have ever had.  10/10

Derick Hougaard- Surprising that Morne Steyn was not starting. Morne was on the bench. 6/10

Fourie du Preez- The best scrumhalf in world rugby at the time 10/10

Pierre Spies- Spoes was at his peak in this time. 9/10. 

Wikus van Heerden-   7.5/10

 Pedrie Wannenburg-  6.5/10

Victor Matfield,   10/10

Bakkies Botha  8.5/10

Rayno Gerber. I dont remember him

Gary Botha/  8.5/10 Backup hooker for Boks, after John Smith

Gurthro Steenkamp. (Won South African player of the year in 2009). A top quality player, that may have made a world XV when at his peak. 9/10

Replacements: Jaco Engels, Danie Thiart, 

Danie Rossouw  9/10. A superSub. Replaced Backies in minute 55, the best backup in the tournament.

Derick Kuun - Solid

Heini Adams - 7/10

Morne Steyn.  8.5 Very good behind a dominant pack

Jaco van der Westhuyzen.   8.5/10. Was very good at the time. He was the first choice Bok 15, so surprising that he did not start. (at 15 or 10)



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