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FORUM / RUGBY /  Lions results .....how good?

Lions results .....how good?

Started by Mozart25 REPLIES451 VIEWS· 06 Jul 2016, 02:40
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jul 2016, 02:40
#1
06 Jul 2016, 02:40#1
There is no doubt the Lions are putting away good teams with ease. The Sharks are the latest victims. It's impressive....clinical. 
There is also  no doubt the Boks were lifted by the Lions players in the second test...they provided confidence, energy and a defined playing style, as some of us predicted. It saved our bacon in that series.
But there is one fly in the ointment, the record against the 4 top NZ teams. It's true the Lions beat the Chiefs at home, a fine performance. But then the Crusaders and the Hurricanes returned the favo ur in SA. And the Highlanders quickly absorbed the Chiefs loss and won handily the next week.

In aggregate it was 3 to 1 to the NZ teams and the points  differential was a whopping  54 in favour of NZ....the Lions were outplayed by the Hurricanes and Highlanders, closer against the Saders.

So while the Lions seem to be getting better by week, there has to be some doubt if they can beat the top 4 NZ teams in the next month...the answer to that question has important implications not just for the S15 but also for the RC.
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
06 Jul 2016, 06:54
#2
06 Jul 2016, 06:54#2
Mozart the Lions are good but yes, how good we will really only know when the play in the finals. Their schedule is: Kings this weekend (round 16), Jaguares (round 17) next weekend so they should have good warmup games going into the finals - these games won't tell us much. They will be top of their conference so will have the benefits of that.
Looking at the stats they simply prove that the Lions are good on offence, a bit of a weakness in tackling & more of a weakness in scrums & rucks (pap forwards?) 
Heres the breakdown of the stats:
Right now they are the top of the s18 table with 47 points, 1 measly point ahead of the Mighty Chiefs.  The Kiwi teams have had to play each other so they have had a tougher schedule than the SA teams so how much does this result really tell us.
On offense, top in terms of tries scored 5th in clean breaks, second in terms of meters gained, etc. All good.
On defence: tackles made they are 8th with 84.8% (a bit of a weakness)
 
Scrum success 12th 90% (a weakness)Ruck success 13th  94% success (a real weakness) - do they need an Alberts?
In terms of set piece performance they have a weakness. Overall you could generalise & say kiwi teams rank better than the Lions, or at least most of them do. 
3 Kiwi teams are in the top 3 of scrums success. In terms of ruck success all Kiwi teams except for the Landers are better than the Lions.

Of course Kiwi teams have shown us for years that you don't have to dominate the set piece to win games if you are clinical & make use of the ball you have. The Lions are doing this as they top the table in tries scored.
In terms of what it means for the RC, how many of the Lions players will be picked to play? This of course will be the other factor. Maybe the success of the Lions (in terms of results & crowd appeal) will put pressure on  Coetzee to adopt the Lions approach to the game & this may mean more Lions selected. We will watch with interest.

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jul 2016, 08:26
#3
06 Jul 2016, 08:26#3

Mozart 

As per normal you go haywire whenever you go for teams.   Fact is the Lions lost the Highlanders game when they had injury problems amongst the props and it was so bad they had to bring in their CC props to help out.  They also had Mnisi who let in three tries of Crotty through poor defense in the Crusader game.  Most of those problems have been fixed already.  

Your campaign against the Lions has been ongoing for two years now and your constant attacks have been based on –

*    according to you the incapacity of Lions players to play test rugby and support of Meyer’s  decision not to select any Lions players for the WC last year; and

*    the style of rugby they played taking into account your support of “stampkar” rugby as the only way to go.

Sorry – but the Lions played 5 NZ teams and beat 2 – while getting bonus points against two of the other three.  I think the Highlanders game was an aberration  - since they were already  on the way home the next day.    But as per normal – you go beserk – so what else is new?    

CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Jul 2016, 08:58
#4
06 Jul 2016, 08:58#4
 The current format is a little unfair in that it gives certain teams an easier route to the play offs. 
Luckily the Lions had to play against the New Zealanders and that gives one a better picture of where we stand competitively. 
I think we've done well.
There is a lot of weaknesses in the Lions team that any intelligent coach could use and exploit ... especially at the breakdown.
To top the log is a bit of a mixed bag actually. An easier format to that of the Kiwis and some really good performances over the season has put us in a good position to contest for the title. 
I think we at least deserve to be in the playoffs ... perhaps not at the top of the log with all things being fair. 
None the less ... w e have a shot ... be it a long shot ... but a shot none the less.
I am hopeful ... and will go absolutely ballistic if we were to pull it off.
Very excited!!



 



BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Jul 2016, 09:09
#5
06 Jul 2016, 09:09#5
Mike, I think you are missing Moz's point. He isn't saying the Lions are hopeless, he's saying they have not done well against the NZ'ers. Which is a fact. Forget about when they were going home, or which one player let in tries, or which team had injured props. All teams face injury challenges throughout the season. All teams have players that have bad games and all teams have to travel....those are just excuses. The facts are simple, they have lost games against the Highlanders, Crusties and the Canes. Therefore, they have not performed well against the NZ sides in general. As a result there are question marks. It is not an Anti-Lions sentiment, it is just a simple matter of pointing out the facts. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jul 2016, 09:57
#6
06 Jul 2016, 09:57#6
 As things stand the Lions are likely to play an Aussie or NZ side in the play-offs at home.  The logs are not clear at this stage - so why go for a team at this stage of the Super Rugby competition like Mozart has done.  He has a long history of trying to denigrate the Lions and some Lions players.   That is what I take exception to - so lets wait and see what happens in the quarters before going for the team as Mozart as done.        
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Jul 2016, 10:17
#7
06 Jul 2016, 10:17#7
 "As things stand the Lions are likely to play an Aussie or NZ side in the play-offs at home."
The only way they will NOT play an Aus or NZ side is if they completely drop out of the play-offs...


SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2016, 10:20
#8
06 Jul 2016, 10:20#8

The Highlanders game was a strange one, intercept tries against the run of play, they were not better than the Lions on the day.


But the real point with the Lions is that they have the least depth in talent when it comes to the top 4 SA sides and they still manage to achieve so much.


This is down to the fantastic coaching combination of Ackerman and Swys de Bruin who do everything right from selections to style of play. The Lions more than anything play a great style of rugby.


They fall short in the physicality stakes, where the good Kiwi sides have beaten them in this regard. If they had some more physicality in the forwards they would be unstoppable.


Their performances are the very reason Ackers and Swys should have been our Bok duo......but sadly politics has dictated otherwise. Given how much they have achieved with so little at the Lions, imagine what they could do with the best players at their disposal.


They know how to get the best out of players, the Lions know exactly what they are doing, they operate at pace, attack space and always have support players running off peoples shoulders.


A player like Mapoe thrives in that environment because he gets ball, unlike in the tests where de Allende was used as a crashballer hardly sending it wide

CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Jul 2016, 10:53
#9
06 Jul 2016, 10:53#9
 I thought you favoured the non distributing De Allende?
If you select him there he'll continue with the same absurdity and whoever happens to be on his outside will be just as ineffective as Mapoe. 
Why select him at all?



SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2016, 11:26
#10
06 Jul 2016, 11:26#10

de Allende is a class act playing under the wrong instructions at test level.


Last year in the S15 he beat more defenders than any other centre in the comp, did the same in the WC


You cant ask more from your 12 than beating defenders.....if he was playing for the Lions he would be beating those defenders and passing......for the Boks he beats and then takes contact......different styles......we know which is the better one  

CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Jul 2016, 12:42
#11
06 Jul 2016, 12:42#11
affex
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 15402RE: Lions results .....how good?
July 06, 2016, 11:26:53

de Allende is a class act. playing under the wrong instructions at test level.

 Fixed
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2016, 13:48
#12
06 Jul 2016, 13:48#12
Vlag I see you are as sharp as ever......would help if you actually knew some thing about the game 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jul 2016, 14:08
#13
06 Jul 2016, 14:08#13
 Dave - Ceradunce knowns zero about rugby - but he is an expert on "Stampkar game", which he believes is rugby.  That is why all is comments are "poephol voor"
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Jul 2016, 15:07
#14
06 Jul 2016, 15:07#14
 Well, if I had to worry about two nincompoops' assessment of my knowledge of "the game"..............
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jul 2016, 15:13
#15
06 Jul 2016, 15:13#15
 You are to o stupid to be a nincompoop.   Just a real lunatic pretending he knows anything at all.  I warned you before - you do not need stupid pills - you are stupid enough already.  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jul 2016, 15:13
#16
06 Jul 2016, 15:13#16
 You are to o stupid to be a nincompoop.   Just a real lunatic pretending he knows anything at all.  I warned you before - you do not need stupid pills - you are stupid enough already.  
JW
Just_win
Captain18,570 posts
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
06 Jul 2016, 15:38
#17
06 Jul 2016, 15:38#17
 Well, Surprisingly I agree with wee cc's assessment of the Lions. Not sure why it is a mixed bag to be top of the log but the rest of the post I can agree with.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jul 2016, 15:57
#18
06 Jul 2016, 15:57#18
Nice post CC. I am in about the same place......pleasantly surprised by the Lions continued performance, impressed by their coaching and senior players....but not convinced they have quite the fire power needed to go all the way. Let's hope that's not the case. In any case they have already impacted SA rugby significantly and they have a real shot, particularly if they play most of the playoffs at home.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
06 Jul 2016, 16:19
#19
06 Jul 2016, 16:19#19
 Exactly Mozart and that's why it's imperative to take our best team to Argentina and make sure we top the log.
Opportunities like this come once in a blue moon and we must take full adavantage of our current situation.
Go Lions!!
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2016, 16:22
#20
06 Jul 2016, 16:22#20

I don't think the Lions could win the final given their lack of grunt in the pack. I do think that a slight tweak in their side could go a long way to providing the much needed physicality.


Move Mostert to 7 and play the impressive Lorens Erasmus at lock alongside Ferreria.  

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Jul 2016, 16:30
#21
06 Jul 2016, 16:30#21
Tecklenburg is integral to their fast ball....a bit of an unsung hero.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Jul 2016, 16:31
#22
06 Jul 2016, 16:31#22
 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 23558RE: Lions results .....how good?
July 06, 2016, 15:13:21

 You are too stupid to be a nincompoop.


Oops......
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Jul 2016, 16:45
#23
06 Jul 2016, 16:45#23

I don't rate Tecklenburg that much, given Kriel and Whitely are hardly the biggest, its imperative they have more physicality than Tecklenburg at 7, if they want to compete physically .......Mostert would be ideal there.


I prefer young Brink or Ackerman to Tecklenburg 

OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
06 Jul 2016, 18:43
#24
06 Jul 2016, 18:43#24
Lions have had great continuity the last 2 or 3 years, playing together in Super Rugby and the CC. Even having no Boks helped them out.
No substitute for experienced combinations and the familiarity that extended game time together in a consistent system brings.
Lions are also proof that a two-tier promotion/relegation approach to Super rugby is the way to go. No better motivation.

DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
07 Jul 2016, 18:22
#25
07 Jul 2016, 18:22#25
 Lions were great this season, and they deserve the top spot, but they are not light years ahead of the Stormers/Sharks/Bools, but they will atleast win the Beer Pump this year.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
08 Jul 2016, 10:40
#26
08 Jul 2016, 10:40#26
 I also prefer Brink to Tecklenburg. 
A boy for the future.
Slotting Mostert in at 7 is utter stupidity. He's been very effective there the last few seasons and you want to move him?
How clueless are you really?


 






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