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FORUM / RUGBY /  Lions spine reson for Boks success

Lions spine reson for Boks success

Started by clevermike22 REPLIES746 VIEWS· 02 Jul 2017, 15:20
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jul 2017, 15:20
#1
02 Jul 2017, 15:20#1
The following article in News24 reflects the views of Meyer:-------------
"A Lions backbone, a new defence plan, a world-class coaching team and a deadly impact bench were some of the main ingredients in the Springboks’ recent successes against France, according to Heyneke Meyer.

The former Springbok coach said the value of improved fitness levels and a healthy team culture should also not be underestimated for the role it played in June’s 3-0 series win over France.


Fitness levels

“What a lot of people don’t understand is that, with the Boks, you begin building from the start every year,” said Meyer.


“You don’t have the luxury of time. That was why it was important to choose the Lions’ decision-makers – their hooker [Malcolm Marx], number five lock [Franco Mostert], eighth man [Warren Whiteley], scrum half [Ross Cronjé], flyhalf [Elton Jantjies] and fullback [Andries Coetzee].


“They form the backbone of the Lions. With them in the Springbok team, you immediately have a game plan. That’s why the team clicked from the first Test. It made things much easier".


Because of the limited preparation time, fitness levels were fundamentally important to the attempt to come back against the French after a disappointing season last year.

“I’ve learnt that, in South African rugby, everyone first has to suffer before they’re prepared to buy in and work. That’s exactly what happened with the players’ conditioning after last years’ indaba. It seems as if there is now better communication between the national team and the franchises when it comes to conditioning.


“Against France, the Boks’ physicality, which has been a problem since my time, was the best that it has been for years. One could see it in their defence and the way they chased down kicks.


“We played at a higher tempo than the French throughout the series. They couldn’t match our physicality or our intensity".


Possession at the breakdown

The former Bok coach highlighted fitness as one of the main reasons the team showed so much improvement last month.


“The Boks gave the French no room on attack. To succeed in doing that, your team has to be fit. The French just couldn’t get over the advantage line.


“Under Brendan Venter as defence coach, the Boks have also decided not to tackle the ball with the player. Instead, we mostly targeted the French’s legs in tackles. That gave the Bok defender’s supporting player the immediate chance to compete for ball possession.


“The tactic of tackling around the legs is similar to that used by Argentina and other northern hemisphere teams.


“This masterful move enabled the Boks to fare much better at the breakdown point than they had last year. Players like Malcolm, Coenie [Oosthuizen], Siya [Kolisi], Jean-Luc [du Preez], Ross [Cronjé], Jan [Serfontein] and Jesse [Kriel] were especially good at competing for possession at the breakdown against the French.”Oosthuizen also impressed Meyer as an impact player.


“The Boks’ impact bench was simply incredible. Players like Coenie, Steven Kitshoff, Lood de Jager and Pieter-Steph du Toit all made a big difference when they were sent on. The coaching team got it right with the balance of the bench.”


Coaching team

Venter was not the only member of the coaching team that impressed Meyer.

“Every person in the coaching team brought their side. Franco Smith did very well with the Boks’ attacking and backline play. Matt Proudfoot and Johann van Graan also quietly made valuable contributions.


“Something that struck me was how well the Boks mauled in the Test. They also halted nine French rolling mauls close to our own try line. I don’t actually think we realise how good we were at that. If France had scored tries from the rolling mauls, the series could have ended very differently".


According to Meyer, Pieter Kruger is another member of the coaching team who deserves recognition for the hard work he put in at the team camp in Plettenberg Bay.

“It’s good and well that the Lions’ team culture and values spilt over to the Boks. But it’s Pieter, [Springbok coach] Allister [Coetzee], and Warren who drove it so strongly and helped establish it in the Bok camp. When Rudy Paige scored a try at Ellis Park, you could see that the members of the team were playing for each other. It was nice to see that positive team spirit again. Allister definitely also got it right by appointing Warren as captain. He is the right captain".


Whether the Boks’ win over the French will prove to be a turning point in South African rugby remains to be seen.


According to Meyer, Coetzee and his team will still need to do a lot of hard work if they want to be successful in the Rugby Championship."


So how can we now believe Meyer after his refusal to select even a single Lions player for the WC squad.      He has lost the plot completely then and made an utter fool of himself again by the above statement after his destructive behavior when he was the Springbok coach.  



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jul 2017, 19:46
#2
02 Jul 2017, 19:46#2
The above statement was a generous, mature assessment by a coach who probably has some regrets and included none of the prevalent nasty sniping at his successor. Besides which the Lions case was not as compelling in 2015. Nice one Heyneke.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Jul 2017, 22:26
#3
02 Jul 2017, 22:26#3
 Ou maaaikie were the Lions the side they are now in Meyers time?
I give a lot of praise to Venter. As Mallet says he is the brains and the strong character they need ed.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jul 2017, 23:06
#4
02 Jul 2017, 23:06#4
 _That comment about Meyer is fully justified - the side of the Lions was by some distance better than the sides of other SA franchises in 2015.  
Meyer had apparently problems by 2015, namely -
*   his selections were constantly based on reputation without any regard to present performances even when it was clear that most of the reputation players by  the end of 2014 was consistently  poor;
*   his idea about the game plan was so out of date that what  he thought as that the backline could never be utilized as both a attacking and defending entity; and
*   he could not select Lions players because they would not fit in with the sick non-existent  game plan he used as his experience players could neve r adjust to any game plan they have lost touch with.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2017, 05:47
#5
03 Jul 2017, 05:47#5
Ou Tokkie you have never been for Mostert or Whiteley and rabidly against Jantjies....what a hypocrite you are.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
03 Jul 2017, 09:27
#6
03 Jul 2017, 09:27#6
 
Meyer has much to say now. How come? He wants to come across as this know-it-all ... as an expert who's views should be taken seriously.

Really??? What a joke!!

Pity that when his chance came to guide our national side, he exposed himself as a chump ... an ignorant fool ... clueless to the modern game ... and the importance of so many little things.

He was told that selecting on form was key ... not on reputation. He was told that the spine of the Bok team should be from the Lions. He was told that he needed to select from home ... to leave the pensioners out of the side. He was given good advice from all angles ... AND HE IGNORED IT ALL. Much to Mozart's delight.

Why is he even speaking to the media? He made us the laughing stock of world rugby.

Enough already. I think it's best this fool shuts his mouth and the sooner he does so the better.

Be quiet Mr Meyer. No one cares what you have to say.

 


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Jul 2017, 09:28
#7
03 Jul 2017, 09:28#7
 You have ben totally against any of the Lions team being selected and your support of Meyer's selection - even the hospital ward cases - was total in 2015.   In 2016 you blamed the Lions players for the losses by the Springboks.   Only in April this year you made a total change in approach and started pun ting some Lions players.
You are obviously entitled to change your mind - but so am others.   I have never changed my mind about Meyer's BS selections and his seriously deficient non-existent game plan.   
  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
03 Jul 2017, 09:47
#8
03 Jul 2017, 09:47#8
 
It takes an age for Mozart to catch up with anything rugby related.

He and his ideas of the game is obsolete and it has been for many years now.

He knows that his only chance of sounding knowledgeable is to adopt other posters ideas and comments ... to abandon his previous absurdity that he argued so venomously for at the time ... do his usual 180 ... 360 ... and hope nobody notices.

It's gotten so bad that he actually believes his own bullshyte these days.

Very sad to see him regress to this state.



HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
03 Jul 2017, 11:21
#9
03 Jul 2017, 11:21#9
 here I was thinking it was bent refs being the reason for Boks success 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2017, 13:55
#10
03 Jul 2017, 13:55#10
'He and his ideas of the game is obsolete'.......hahaha.....remember that call for proper English. It took two seconds to take you apart. Not to mention your colleague's: 'but so am others' .. Two similar, angry clowns trying to debate! LMAOFY!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Jul 2017, 16:01
#11
03 Jul 2017, 16:01#11
 No need to argue about this issue.   Mozart found it necessary to defend his hero and it was self-destructive in his case.   He will never admit that Meyer damaged SA Rugby and he was ably assisted by Ludeke and his other cronies.
One just have to look at the difference in performance of a player like Serfontein when properly coached.   An there are others as well.  
Even though Coetzee is as bad as Meyer was - the fact is that Venter and Smith changed the spirit of the team and came up with a usable game plan.   Even though there are major obstacles ahead in the RC - the signs are definitely better than it was last tear.
At  last there are positive signs developing of a new squad being developed - something Meyer ignored and n fact destroyed.        
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2017, 16:04
#12
03 Jul 2017, 16:04#12
'One just have to look'......bwaaaaaaaahahaha...you can't stop!
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
03 Jul 2017, 16:29
#13
03 Jul 2017, 16:29#13
 Firstly, one swallow doesn't make a summer. I would not call the boks recent performance success. It was merely that they learned to tackle and managed to take their opportunities. 
secondly, the lions have been playing against week opposition all year long and might come undone in the play-offs as their players won't be use to the pace.
thirdly, if the Lions make it all the way to the finals, they would have to travel to Christchurch (Or by some miracle the Crusaders gets knocked out) they would have to travel and play them in the middle of winter in the dead of night in swirling windy conditions with no luxury of the high veld. 
By some miracle they can come close to a win, I believe that they make a difference to the boks.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Jul 2017, 16:59
#14
03 Jul 2017, 16:59#14
KC let me differ slightly. I think the Boks last year were rudderless...no team, no playing tactics, no leadership. So injecting the Lions players helped....a suggestion I actually made during the Irish series last year. Which is not to say that players like Coetzee, Combrink, Dreyer and Kriel are star test prospects.....they aren't. But they help consolidate the team effort, so as I said a few months back, if it's close pick the Lion. ... Having said all that, the last much maligned Bok team was ranked second in the world and got us to within 20 minutes of beating the ABs in the WC semi. I doubt strongly the team everybody was clamouring for, the current team in effect, would do as well. .. HM is a decent chap and he is trying to support the new team.....we don't need old hypocrites having an unnecessary go at him.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
04 Jul 2017, 10:07
#15
04 Jul 2017, 10:07#15
 
Meyer may be a "decent chap" but a rugby coach he is not.

I'm sure we'd much rather hear the opinions of a successful winning coach ... not from a failure who brought us shame and embarrassment.



DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
04 Jul 2017, 11:07
#16
04 Jul 2017, 11:07#16
CleanCut

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5503 RE: Lions spine reson for Boks success
July 04, 2017, 10:07:33

 
Meyer may be a "decent chap" but a rugby coach he is not.

I'm sure we'd much rather hear the opinions of a successful winning coach ... not from a failure who brought us shame and embarrassment.

 

I would take Meyer back any day over this clueless idiot Coetzee.


What shame and embarrassment did Meyer actually achieve compared to Coetzee..... De Villiers..................Japan..... Argentina?


Please man.... get over it, and grow up......


Major shocks have happened with many teams over the last 24 - 36 months.... other teams are getting coached better at the game, some teams are getting worse or going through a slump.......... it's part of the evolution of the players and the game.


Ireland..... first time in 111 years beating the All Blacks......


Scotland, beating Australia for the first time in 4 years last week...... and this after they fully deserved a win in that world cup quarter final game as well..... after Craig Joubert awarded that stupid penalty.


What about Japan beating New Zealand in the Olympic 7's opening game?..... Unheard of.......


Japan beating Samoa at the 2015 world cup 26-5


Japan beating United States at the 2015 world cup 28-18


Sh!t happens......... upsets happen..... countries improve...... luck sometimes comes into it.


Take away all the restraints that Meyer had to work with, all the stumbling blocks put in his path.... behind the scenes, all the transformation pressure, all the restrictions put on his daily decisions by SARU..... ANC.....


Coetzee does not have that to the same degree that a "white" Meyer had back then... period.


Give the man his due, he may not have been the best in his results or with transformation...... but he was certainly no embarrassment to the B ok jersey.


DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
04 Jul 2017, 11:17
#17
04 Jul 2017, 11:17#17

Correct Cloudy


And might I add, that SA lost by 2 points to the "Best Ever" All Black side in the history of the game to ever grace the rugby field.


That, is according to most experts in the game.... past and pr esent


 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
05 Jul 2017, 14:51
#18
05 Jul 2017, 14:51#18
 We had to steal a lineout off Matfield and apply pressure at the right end of the field.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
05 Jul 2017, 16:17
#19
05 Jul 2017, 16:17#19
 The Boks would be doing a lot better if they dominated the line outs as they did during Matfield's peak.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
05 Jul 2017, 16:40
#20
05 Jul 2017, 16:40#20
 
Yeah ... I'm sure the Kiwis will also just shrug their shoulders if Japan beat them and say something similar to what you've just said, Dumb Ass.

"Shit happens" ... "oh well" ... "nothing to be ashamed of" ... "it was bound to happen some time or another" ... "anyone for tea?"

Japan is a far cry from Ireland and Scotland.




DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
05 Jul 2017, 16:55
#21
05 Jul 2017, 16:55#21

Yeah CC


I am shrugging my shoulders about what happened a few years ago, as the All Blacks did when they lost to Japan in the Olympic 7's..... also unheard of.


Unlike you, we seem to remember what happened back then, but don't harp on it daily and live our current lives now by what happened back then.


But it's you we are talking about.... so it all makes complete  sense at the end of the day.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jul 2017, 18:05
#22
05 Jul 2017, 18:05#22
DA
We gave a problem here ignored by some.    Meyer had a game plan used successfully by the Bulls when he coached them.   The plan entailed inter alia a kicking game by the half- backs and passing the ball back to the forwards.  The backline usage was totally ignored and for practical purposes the backline's role was in the main to defend.
That plan was illustrated  by Meyer's comments about backline players which mentioned that the players lack the skills set to play comprehensive rugby.
That being the case he had a problem - the game changed in 2008 and the AB's and other sides changed the style of play.   Meyer consequently had a problem.   Younger players who could not play the old style rugby sponsored  by Meyer.   So the solution was to retain or get back from retirement the players schooled in playing that type of rugby.  
That seemed to have worked - with the exception that in the four years Meyer was coach the Springboks only neat the AB's once.   By the end of 2014 the descend into chaos started and the list of losses increased.    Basically it was the golden oldies  that let the team down.   Meyer - who never really brought in new blood in the team  and used new player occasionally only - panicked and  when the WC came along in 2015 he selected a team comprising a surprising number of players who in up to two years virtually never played rugby.  
The bubble burst in the Japan test in 2015.   The most experienced team ever fielded by the Springboks lost the test.   The Springboks  world ranking drop to 6  and since then they never really recovered.   Another bad situation was that Meyer was forced to play inexperienced youngsters in key games - for instance okaying a center combination that at the start of the WC had a total of 3 tests as a combination.
In the end the mess made by the springboks in not playing comprehensive rugby would never succeed In major competitions.   The golden oldies in the main left in 2016 and from a dominant 17  under Meyer was reduced to  8.   All of them in fat failed in the 2016 tests.
I would summarize Meyer's situation as follows to illustrate where he lost the plot:-
*   The deficiency in not replacing reputation players without required performance levels.
*   Usage of a game plan that has been basically unsuccessful since 2008 with the further complication  that the golden oldies could not adjust their playing style and the game stagnated.
*    The lack of building up a solid squad for the future.
    
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
05 Jul 2017, 20:32
#23
05 Jul 2017, 20:32#23
 The tale. The success was due to the opponent, which was the ideal candidate to provide SA with an opportunity to dress its rugby.
— END OF THREAD —

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