Loose Forward Conundrum

For all the negatives that can be said about the Wallabies, we certainly can't scoff at their loose forwards. Pocock was no trivial matter in the Bledisloe series. If we are going to undo Australia for a rare win away, this may be where it is won. This so happens to be what I consider the soft underbelly of the entire starting XV for South Africa. Exactly what is our best trio? 

Looking at past tests for answers, we find more questions than answers. Since Coetzee's Reign began we have fielded 17 different combinations. It's a staggering number over a two and a half year period. Even more disconcerting is the shifts many players have made between the positions. 

Our longest running trio was Whiteley, Mohoje and Louw through the middle of then 2016 season, spanning 6 consecutive tests. We won 2 of those tests, both at home to Argentina and Australia. I'm sure any assertion that this is the answer will be met with defeating howls. Where to next?

We've fielded two other combinations for 3 tests: Vermuelen, Kolisi, Louw and Cassiem, Jaco Kriel, Kolisi. The former won 2 in 3 against Ireland, Italy and lost to Ireland in the first tests of 2016. Two games at home one away. Hardly a proven entity. The latter winning 2 against Argentina in 2017 before drawing with Australia in Perth. I don't hear any support for this combination.

Our longest serving 8 has been Whiteley (14 tests) with a 41% with percentage. Next is Duane (7 tests) with a 71% win percentage. Could this indicate Duane gives us an edge? It is notable that he has only played Ireland, France, Italy and England post World Cup. 

Our longest serving 7 has been Mohoje (8 tests) with a 50% win percentage. We did manage a draw against Australia with him. Next is Steph (7 tests) with patchy results. We did nearly beat New Zealand with him. Kolisi is the third most common with 5 tests. Again, patchy results.

Our longest serving 6's are Louw (13 tests) and Kolisi (13 tests). There is much debate about both. Kwagga Smith was part of the loss to Wales.

All things considered, who do we go to? Shall proceed with Whiteley, Kolisi and Louw? If not, who and why? One thing is for certain, we are in desperate need of some consistency. We have fielded 10 combinations for only 1 gets together. A further 4 with only 2 tests together. 14 wasted tests. That's an entire seasons worth of tests, with nothing gained. 

Ja, it leaves me speechless as well

Perhaps fate was nudging me in the right direction 

The page confirmed while I was typing out the title - for a second time. 

We should use Vermeulen while we can as his days are surely numbered. He is a force to be reckoned with and is easily head and shoulders above everyone else we've seen this year.

Jaco Kriel is another wonderful player and once healthy should walk the Springbok side.

A combination of these two world class athletes is a no-brainer.

Our issue lies on the blindside but that too can be overcome. We have some fine prospects that can be brought in to make up a very strong back row.

Van Staden is but one of a handful that should be considered.

First things first though. We need to do away with the token and current captain. He really isn't up to scratch.  

I agree, Kolisi belongs on the bench. He was selected as captain, but has shown absolutely no leadership whatsoever. He has no presence whatsoever and goes missing most of the time. He did some good things in the second test, but still nowhere near enough. 

The question is, how do we get rid of him? Wait for an injury? Select Nyakane at 3 and drop Kolisi to the bench? Who should be our captain anyway? Marx? Eben? 

As much as I love Duane, I don't have any confidence in his fitness. I think we need to look beyond him. 

Vermeulen is our best loose forward at the moment and to discard him would be foolish. Fitness is something that can be worked on. Ask Os Du Randt.

I do however agree that we should be on the lookout for other prospects, but isn't that normally the case when growing depth and developing a competitive spirit within the squad?

OS wasnt always inured though. Duane is. How can we establish continuity if he will be gone at inopportune times? If he is healthy, I rate him the best 8 in the game. If he is healthy. 

Oh!! I didn't realize he was injured. I must have missed that.

On fitness, Os was brought back from retirement. He was out of shape and needed to shed more than 25kg and had a deadline to do it in. Not so easy for a man many thought of as past his best. He managed it though and became an integral part of that world cup winning squad.

Fitness is an easy fix.

He isn't injured at the moment. We've negotiated a release from his Japanese team for the All Black test in Wellington. 

That was some comeback, but once back in the team Os was reliable, being available for almost every test of the Jake era. 

What? So he isn't injured?!

What was that all about then?

First it's his fitness level, then it's the possibility of an injury, and now it's his reliability or lack  thereof. 

You certainly are a strange one.

All you needed to say is that you don't like the man and be done with it. 

Dragon

There is a problem that was shown in the case of Vewreulen as well.   In the first two England test he was marvelous  and nobody could be better.   At the end of the second test he complained about aches and pains and that was followed by the third English test where he was just aout average in performance.   The top performer in the first two tests was gone.  

In that case it has likely to do with the fitness levels require in NH club rugby.   It is in fact not catering for fast moving games like happen in the SH insofar as tests are concerned.   The fact is that Vermeulen looked tired in the third test in June and then came the announcement he was going to Japan and will not play in the RC tests,   It must b emphasized that Vermeulen was not injured  at all and he may just have a few bumps normal in test rugby.   

Before the June test Vermeulen had no rugby for about three weeks and he probably put everything in reserve into the first two matches and the drive was not there for the third test.   So will the same thing not happen in the next test series he will play in for the Springboks in future?

After about a six weeks break before the start of the Japan season - he would have to play a match every 14 days in the Japan League.   It is really "soft" rugby having to play an average  2 matches a month.   My problem is that if there were questions on Vermeulen's fitness levels after playing Top 14 rugby in France - what will it look like in the case of playing in Japan?

It is going to be problematic if even a top class player is to come into the team with a defective fitness level.   It worries me very, very much.         

Japanese rugby is not the most physical but it is the most taxing as far as cardio conditioning is concerned. There is almost no kicking, they run from 22 to 22 constantly. Think of how much energy one needs to contest the breakdown! A little more balance makes all the difference. No need to thank me Clever Mike, I know you know I've got your back 

Fair comment, clevermike. It still doesn't change the fact that fitness is something that anyone can work on. Talent is a whole other issue. You either have it or you don't and from what I've seen he has it in spades.

As far as I understand, the Bulls have bought his services for the coming Super Rugby season and that should be more than enough time to acclimatize to the Southern hemisphere conditions and the fitness levels that inevitably comes with it.

So I don't see the problem.

Can you suggest anyone better suited at 8 than Thor?

No I cannot suggest a better proposition.   If Vermeulen does play Super Rugby next year it will eliminate potential problems.

AO

Wonderful comment - but how come Jacques Fourie came back from playing for Japan - he was too fat to play any rugby and Meyer send him packing in June 2015 because of the shocking conditions he was in?   Fat Fransie was even fatter when he returned from Japan.

How do you account for the string of injuries occurring after the return from Japan of players - a lot of injuries occur even before the start of Super Rugby.    Some players are off for months after such injuries.

There is a correlation between injuries and unfitness and that is clear especially in the case of Japan rugby returnees.

.

Actually, Frans slimmed quite a bit after 2013. Fourie didn't retire because he was too fat and out of shape, he just wasn't good enough anymore to start. You see how easily you stray from the truth? 

Yes, I must agree, clevermike.

It's a known fact that rugby player go off to Japan to help their bodies recover. They're on holiday so to speak.

Running around from one 22 to the other is far less taxing than doing the same thing with an added element of physicality. You try running to the 22, wrestling an opponent for the ball, only to get up and run to the opposite 22 to do the same thing again, back and forth and back again. 

Players return from Japan well rested and totally out of shape. Ask Jaco vd Westehuizen. He can attest to the wake up call he received at the Bulls on his return from the far east.

As you said, clevermike - injuries come from this.

Fransie never slimmed down - he was the same weight in 2015 as he was before Plumtree told the public what his real situation was.  I saw a photo of him after his jersey was removed after injury (it was in 2014) and he nearly looked pregnant - he was so fat his stomach literally  hung over his  rugby shorts.    

He was White's favourite plyer and White apparently did not deal with the issue.   

Even last year Fransie came from the bench in a test and had to run about 40 meters to follow up a  kick.   He was clearly out of breath after that run - that is totally unfit.  .        

And so it is, yet another thread ruined by Freifrau Mike von Klugscheißer. I introduce a topic about loose forwards and we are yet again talking about Frans, a centre.

And to end this discussion we can see what the folks at Sharksworld think of your baloney: http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2015/01/28/frans-steyn-shapin-up/

So, we are in agreement that Duane is our best 8. Who would be our backup? What of 6 and 7? Are there any Louw fans? What of Kolisi at 6 with a power 7? I wasn't very convinced by Van Staden when he was on.