Massive Vermeulen

So who was more valuable today, a "mobile loosie" like Coetzee....or a man mountain like Vermeulen. Brilliant stuff from the big guy. I thought Stephanie looked pretty good....Etzebeth was influential. Kitshoff and Cilliers probably bested the Bok front row, but things slipped when Malherbe came on. Schalk clearly needs game time, but he still has an instinct for the ball. Marais is a work in progress,  but I like his vision and physical attributes

The game was played in a rainstorm in windy conditions - making ball handling a problem.   In such conditions a player like Vermeulen can shine and he was in fact very good.   Does not mean that in better conditions you must always play the heavies at loosie as Mozart implies - yesterdays conditions suited Vermeulen perfectly.   The players that did not look good were Coetzee and Kolisi - put in non-descript performances

Ball handling was very difficult and as a result the game was very tight.   However, both Etzebeth and Du  Toit had very good performances.

Malherbe came on the field for 10 minutes and suddenly according to Mozart "things slipped".   What a farce Mozart's assessments of games and players are - he always makes judgements on one incident and that decides the performance of the player.   That being said -  the game was ultimately decided by penalties and the fact that Lambie missed two penalties resulted in the Stormers win.        

Mozart

What a joke - you make "judgements on what happens".   You of all people making a statement like that is an insult to intelligence.   When things go wrong and your perceived prejudice in favour of a player is not supported by facts - those facts become raw  statistics not to be taken as facts.

Malherbe came on for ten minutes at the end of the game - and you saw enough of him in that ten minutes to make an assessment on his so-called performance and makes a wild statement.

So write a morzoscope on what he did and did not do in those ten minutes and make it as false as your so-called scopes normally are - and that woiould b a crowning achievement on what you have seen - an utter joke of prejudice and rubbish.   I have not seen anything  at all about how Malherbe failed in that ten minutes he played in.

And if you cannot see how Alberts failed repeatedly against the AB's in two successive tests in SA - then that shows how blind you are to facts and that your judgements are as garbled as you are.   You do not need a passenger in tests - whatever th e conditions.    

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Beeno

Steven Kitshoff had a good game on Saturday - like he had a series of good games in the CC thus far.   It is a pity that he is not in the Springbok squad and the useless Steenkamp is.   That remains one of Meyer's poor selections.

I am not all that certain that loosies should be selected based on weather conditions.   They should much rather be selected with due regard to performance of all loosie functions and not the limited capacity of players like Allberts - who can only perform 10% of what is actually expected from a loosie.  That 10% remains - whatever the playing conditions.

Moz...I agree with what Old Mike and Beeno said...conditions are a factor to state the obvious...loosies on soft grounds are a different ball game on firm ground but I'm a great fan of Vermeulen and certainly agree to his inclusion.

The Cat, I've always liked and it was a huge error from Coetzee to prefer Jantjies and import him prior to the Super Series and force Catrakilis to the Kings. I surmise that the Stormers would have probably won a few more crucial games and might well have reached the finals?

Are weather and field conditions a terminating factor to selection...indeed they should be a factor in certain individual considerations. There are certain individuals that play well in certain conditions but there are those that play well in both... this is not necessary true to every given situation because the factors can be many but generally this is true.

Questions raised...why is it difficult and damn nearly impossible to beat the AB's on NZ fields...cannot only be blamed on the atmosphere in the stadium, the psychological aspect or the travel factor. The AB's came to a firm field at Ellis Park and beat us fair and square, simply because they were the best side...they are far more adaptable and balanced and have been for a very long time.

Playing in Great Britain is another thing altogether, with the EOYT just around the corner and the conditions, certain considerations obviously must come in to play. European conditions seem to favour travelling sides like the AB's better than others...the Springboks have not always come up to expectations there and have not only lost to England in the past but to Ireland, Wales and even Scotland at Murrayfield...if my memory is correct even a club side.

Once again, the Stormers scrum took on the Bok front row. A front row, that until subbed off was giving the ABs a hard time. But for about seventy minutes apart from one scrum I recall, the Stormers scrum had an edge over that vaunted front row. Then Cilliers leaves and the very next scrum the Stormers struggle.

The logical conclusion is said Cilliers was scrumming very effectively. You can make the case Malherbe had only a few chances to show his stuff, so his flaccid performance may be a fluke. Cilliers, by contrast was up against the Beast for 70 minutes....enough time to say he was good value.

Mozart

Some logic - but Cilliers has also proved in the past he is really a poor scrumming prop - so that is not always a key to use one game - played under poor conditions as a norm.   One s crum in which the WP struggled and a norm is arrived at.   There were other scrums where WP also did not show up well during the course of the game - but those are not mentioned in an effort to get to Malherbe - normal Mozart style.

Vermeulen is the way to go...this young man has what it takes to restore Springbok pride in lossies. Sa can boast many greats of loose forwards...Martin Pelser, Jan Ellis, Piet Greyling, Rob Louw, Tommy Bedford , Ruben Kruger and indeed many others ...the list goes on and on. I think Duane will add to this list.

Mozart

You are a coward - I challenged you  in two postings about the issue o the loosies and you did not respond because it proves that you are a prejudiced fool - when it comes to younger and better players than those you have constantly advocated.

The ideas you prat about are all generalizations not based on fact and has nothing to do with performance of players.   You do not realize or refuse to accept that some of the players you are totuing in fact are the reasons why we constanly lose games against the All Blacks and struggle badly in other games which w should win easily.

So since when are players like Kruger, Alberts, Steenkamp and Morne still capable of performing on test level and why should they not be replaced by better-performing players?

How can players be discarded left right and centre on a vague idea of yours that they are not test players - even when in some cases they never had an opportunity to prove that they can perform better than existing players?

The other of your ideas about performance on Super 15 level is also really foolish.   In the case of some players - their  Super 15 performances count for nothing.   In the case of Morne Steyn it counts for everything and same to your constant efforts to discredit Lambie.   You came with a remark how good Morne was on Supr 15 level and how he break lines and beat defenders - better than anything done by Lambie.   Yet statistical evidence did not provide support for what you were advocating.   Suddenly all went quiet.

However, later on when Morne's poor performance at Ellis Park  was discussed you said of ESPN stats - we generally used - that it is raw figure that should n0t be taken seriously.    It is becoming clear to me now that if you support a player and his stats are detrimental - the stats are disregarded by you.  

A reasonable discussion based on rugby and performance facts are just not possible and you could help all of us to improve our approach - by not stating  an unprofessional and prejudiced approach as a basis for discussion. 

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Mozart

I do not propose a host of new players for he Springboks and definitely not players that did not show through top performances that they should be considered.   However, I am not blinded by prejudice about the players at present in the team.

Even Meyer realises ultimately that he is onto a dead duck in the team when dealing with some players and he has thankfully omitted a number of those already.   There are still a few hopeless cases left - but hopefully Meyer would see with his own eyed who they are and get rid of them as well.

The hopeless cases still in the team are those that basically cost us the loss at  Ellis Park and those are-

Kirchner. Morne Steyn, Alberts and  Kruger

All of the above made a major contribution to the loss by missed tackles and idiotic play.   You must be blind not to see how bad they actually were in the missed tackles and also the rest of the game - where they were comprehensively outplayed buy their AB opponents.   With all due respect our loosies were nowhere to be seen outside of the fringe  situation for 80% of the game - while the AB loosies had a ball in their absence. 

You refuse to look at Super 15 performances from a statistical perspective and make sweeping  statements that the Youngsters you decried fdid not perform well in Super 15.   I pointed out elsewhere about Labuschagne comparing his Super 15 stats to those of read and Messam - but you did not respond because you prefer to make sweeping and unsubstantiated statements of aero actual substance.  Lets just look at the following statement of yours:-

"But they haven't in the Junior RWC....they haven't in the S15".   The JWC players we are talking about won the 2012 JWC and the Super 15 information of players are  ignored by you because it is easier to make sweeping and unsubstantiated statements of no  value like the above one - but still  what are your talking about in that quoted statement?

Saffex

Based on actual performance in Super 15 - Labuschagne is way ahead of all of Arno Botha, Coetzee and Kolisi.  

I refer to the item of loosies and compared his Super 15 performances to those of Messam and Read - and also mentioned Botha in that case.   Bota with less playing time was on par with Vermeulen - but a proverbial mile behind Labuschagne who was better on Super 15 level than either Read or Messam if based on statistics relating to all of the facets listed in that thread.  

I am in fact wanting a strengthening of our line out performances by using proven statisics- where neither Kolisi or Coetzee are factors.   In the case of Arno he is a reasonable line out option - he took 15 line outs in all games he played in in Super 15.   Labuschagne took 41 line outs in such games.

The other issue is mobility and defence.   Kolisi was on the field of play for 45 minutes - yet his first tackle attempt on Messam was useless and in those 45 minutes he only made three tackles in total - granted one was a try saving one - but for a loosie to make such a few tackles shows a problem in defence.   Kolisi is on rare occasions a good ball carrier - but those does not negate the lack of actual performance during the rest of the game.   Coetzee to my mind is a deadly defender and I do prefer him to Kolisi.

Arno Botha to my mind would be a very good no 8 - he is a strong and more speedy as a ball carrier than the present incumbent - and he has all the attributes to meet requirements - but his tackle count is on the low side for a flank - making only 60 tackles in all the games he played in when he was playing at 7 in Super 15 this year is comparatively low. 

Mozart as always makes sweeping statements never supported by facts.   He now makes a prediction that Labuschagne will fail in the losing game of the Cheetahs against the Sharks this coming weekend.   On what does he base that statement?  

Is it on the same basis as the one above - where he ends up with egg all over his face and he would not comment on other threads where he was proved wrong time and time again?    

Beeno

You probably are right about the need for change to our loosies - and I would think that the next  Super 15 will show the way to go.   Under-performers in tests and Super 15 level should be eliminated and we should get the best trio on the field of play.

Present indications - based on the Super 15 this year and also on test performances are that the combination based on stats and actual performances should be the following:-

  6 Louw, 7 Labuschagne, 8 Botha

I am fully prepared to accept that Meyer should stick with Vermeulen (since Botha is injured in any event)  and Louw for the time being - but based on performances next year - the following others should be considered as well:-

*   Fourie, Elstadt, Coetzee and Rhodes.

Interesting enough - I rate Botha highly - because his style of play match that of Read to a substantial extent.   Fourie is good - but he is a penalty machine with a marginal tackle count if the stats for 2013 Super 15 is taken into account.