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FORUM / RUGBY /  Meyer the 50% man

Meyer the 50% man

Started by Saffolk 40 REPLIES511 VIEWS· 27 Oct 2014, 16:47
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SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Oct 2014, 16:47
#1
27 Oct 2014, 16:47#1

Wow some of these selections just showcase how poor our coach really is......selecting 4 flyhalves says it all:

 

The Springbok squad for the Castle Lager Outgoing Tour 2014:

 

Bakkies Botha better options are Willemse, Lewies, Jean Kleyn, Mostert

Schalk Burger better options are Jacques du Plessis, v/d Walt, Rhodes,CJ and Elstadt

Nizaam Carr

Marcell Coetzee

Robbie Coetzee better options are Cooper, Visagie, Scara and Ackers

Damian De Allende

Lodewyk de Jager

Jean de Villiers better options are JJ, Mnisi and Andre Esterhuizen

Bismarck du Plessis

Jannie du Plessis

Eben Etzebeth

Johan Goosen

Bryan Habana better options are Kolbe, v/Wyk and Sithole

Cornal Hendricks better options are Kolbe, Kobus v/Wyk, Sithole

Francois Hougaard

Jaco Kriel

Patrick Lambie

Willie le Roux

Victor Matfield better options are Willemse, Lewies, Mostert and Kleyn

Teboho “Oupa” Mohoje better options are Jacques du Plessis, Elstadt, Rhodes, CJ

Tendai Mtawarira

Lwazi Mvovo better options are Sithole, Kobus v/Wyk, Kolbe, Rhule

Trevor Nyakane

Coenie Oosthuizen

Ruan Pienaar better options are Groom and v/Zyl

JP Pietersen

Handré Pollard

Julian Redelinghuys

Cobus Reinach

Seabelo Senatla

Jan Serfontein

Gurthrö Steenkamp better options are v/d Merwe, T.du Toit, Mellett, Kebble

Morné Steyn better options are any of the backs above plus Taute and Jessie Kriel

Adriaan Strauss

Duane Vermeulen

Warren Whiteley better options are CJ Stander, Mtembu and v/d Walt 

 

That's half the squad that should not be there.......I'd concede on Habana and Whitely as they are good.....but equally Jannie gets to stay only because Marcel v/d Merwe, Malherbe and Frik Kirsten are injured.

 

It demonstrates that Meyer is a 50% man.......the same result he achieved against Oz and NZ.......he sells us short by 50%

 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Oct 2014, 17:01
#2
27 Oct 2014, 17:01#2
" Jean de Villiers better options are JJ, Mnisi and Andre Esterhuizen"


JJ? At 12?
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Oct 2014, 17:03
#3
27 Oct 2014, 17:03#3
 Dave 3/12....the 25% man.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Oct 2014, 17:23
#4
27 Oct 2014, 17:23#4

No Vlag JJ is a 13, we have Serfontein currently wasted at 13 when he should be our 12.......so its hardly a like for like exchange.........but trust you to miss the obvious.

 

Moffie.......provide the evidence

 

Last I checked your record was 2/12......what % is that?

 

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Oct 2014, 17:29
#5
27 Oct 2014, 17:29#5
 Mozart
Why do you get prsonal and not defend the selections of individual players?
Afraid to get laughed off the Board when you try and defend, Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha and Morne Steyn for instance?   
I do not support Dave's point of view iro of some players - but in the case of others he has a definite point.   I differ froom him on Jacques du Plessis, Lewies, Jean Kleyn,  JJ Engelbrecht, Howard Mnisi, Andre Esterhuizen and Raimond Rhule as potential options. I have said in the past they are not intrnational level players and gave reasons for my comments.
However, I agree that  Bakkies Botha, Mohoje, Victor Mattfield, Cornal Hendricks and  Morne Steyn  should not have been in the squad at all and in the past gave substantiated details as to the reason for their ommission.   Suffice it to say - t hey are weakening the squad by their presence.      
CE
Ceradyne
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Oct 2014, 18:18
#6
27 Oct 2014, 18:18#6
 Ag foeitog. Jammer om van jou k@k te hoor.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Oct 2014, 18:19
#7
27 Oct 2014, 18:19#7
No, don't sell yourself short Dave.
In the last 12 months this is the record.
Predictions for Wales and France on the YE tour....both wrong
Predictions for Worlds and Wales(2)  in 2014.... both wrong

Predictions for Oz and ABs away....both right

Predictions for Oz and ABs at home....both wrong
Predictions for Sharks and WP in Cc semis....one right.
Prediction for Lions in the final....wrong.
In all twelve predictions made....3 made right. A 25 per cent success ratio. 
CE
Ceradyne
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Oct 2014, 18:23
#8
27 Oct 2014, 18:23#8
 Ou Maaikie will probably say that 25% is not good enough for a lawyer.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Oct 2014, 19:04
#9
27 Oct 2014, 19:04#9

Now Moffie if only you could provide the evidence of my predictions this year to back your statement up.......sadly until such time, your little effort carries about as much weight as Pat Cilliers being the answer at 3 for the Boks (how's your call for Pat going by the way??) 

 

Old man you are all huff, no puff

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Oct 2014, 23:59
#10
27 Oct 2014, 23:59#10
Well as I pointed out before even without the Worlds and Wales you are only at 3 out of nine or 33%. But we all know 25% is the number. Still I can understand you trying the "deny" ploy...what other option does a yellow belly have.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,293 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
28 Oct 2014, 00:34
#11
28 Oct 2014, 00:34#11
This should just read: Better Younger PlayersYounger players who will mostly not even be in Bok consideration in 2 years as their will be  a new Bok legend to replace the incumbent bok legend. Some some half arse flavour of the month Curry Cup players.
Jean de Villiers better options are JJ, Mnisi and Andre Esterhuizen
(Now Mnisi is better than Jean Devilliers. What a joke)
Bryan Habana better options are Kolbe, v/Wyk and Sithole (Van Wyk better than Habana- another total joke. Younger, not better. 
Cornal Hendriks has scored against the best teams in the world. and he should be replaced 
Morné Steyn better options are any of the backs above plus Taute and Jessie Kriel
Jaco Taute playing at flyhalf for the Boks. Pathetic.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Oct 2014, 00:57
#12
28 Oct 2014, 00:57#12
 It's a form of madness and a huge need to be relevant.....Sapp is a sad case.
BO
bobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Oct 2014, 01:13
#13
28 Oct 2014, 01:13#13
 Dawie, believe it or not, but HM is a better option than YOU.

And we're still waiting for your apology for feckin' up this board's functionality & generally behaving like an outright tosser .
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Oct 2014, 02:32
#14
28 Oct 2014, 02:32#14
 HM the 72 per cent man vs Dave the 25 per cent man. HM the pro vs Dave the junior school coach. Now who would you pick? 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Oct 2014, 05:48
#15
28 Oct 2014, 05:48#15
 Mozart
Stil waiting for your comments on the selected squad - his is not about Dave - it is about rugby - so please letus have your comments on the selectied squad.  Please try and be relevant by mnot using your prejudices, but stick to rugby performances.


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Oct 2014, 05:59
#16
28 Oct 2014, 05:59#16
It's too big.  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Oct 2014, 06:31
#17
28 Oct 2014, 06:31#17
 Mozart
It certainly is too big a squad and Meyer should have cut out the fat, the lame and the useless.   There should not have been players like Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha and Morne Steyn in the squad that should be nothing more than 32 players - taking into account that BEE must be borne in mind as well.   
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 06:59
#18
28 Oct 2014, 06:59#18
Maybe the squad is so big because the overseas players aren't around for the final test? 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Oct 2014, 07:13
#19
28 Oct 2014, 07:13#19
 Biltongbek
I believe it is necessary to reduce the foreign players to the abso lute minimum.   Maybe Habana should be the only one to feature - the rest are nowadays at best mediocre.  
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 07:39
#20
28 Oct 2014, 07:39#20

 You don 't need to convince me Mike, I just think the issues all go away when you don't select overseas players.


They choose to move on, why can't we?

BL
bluebok
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bluebokPro3,977 posts
28 Oct 2014, 08:12
#21
28 Oct 2014, 08:12#21
Saff, just on your original post, I see you have not commented on or replaced Jannie Du PLessis? I assume you have not made a mistake here, but I can't believe you'd be happy with him playing? 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Oct 2014, 11:23
#22
28 Oct 2014, 11:23#22

biltongbek

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 137 RE: Meyer the 50% man
October 28, 2014, 06:59:58 Maybe the squad is so big because the overseas players aren't around for the final test? 


We had the same scenario in the June tests where HM, IMO, used the games against the World XV and Wales to assess the state of mainly the "overseas players" and then assessed the youngsters against Scotland, when the others went back to theoir clubs.


biltongbek

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 137 RE: Meyer the 50% man
October 28, 2014, 07:39:31

 You don't need to convince me Mike, I just think the issues all go away when you don't select overseas players.


They choose to move on, why can't we?


Despite the fact some might think that I am very pro-overseas players, I don't really care whether they are selected or not. I would just like to see it as a hard and fast rule. You either use them or you don't use them at all. Not a single one of them.

I personally think that it is an over reaction to prevent them from playing for their country. A rugby player and every other South African finding themselves abroad are allowed, and actually expected, to cast their vote during an election. Why shouldn't he be allowed to represent his country on the sports field? To say that he is out of sight and out of mind also doesn't hold water, IMO. In this day and age there is no reason why the national coach cannot be up to speed with the players' performances. There is no way that he attend all the games to see the local players in any case and during the S15 many of the games are also played abroad as well. So, what is the difference between watching a recording of Bryan Habana playing for Toulon against the Cardiff Blues in Wales and watching a recording of Cornal Hendricks playing for the Cheetahs against the Blues in Auckland, NZ.

I am not even going to start on the issue of opportunities created for other local players, by the overseas players. Our rugby cannot accommodate all the players, overseas and locally, even if we had seven franchises.
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 11:30
#23
28 Oct 2014, 11:30#23

 Ceradyne.


Of course they have a right to play for SA, but to play for SA should be a priviledge, not a right.


Yes video recordings are available, but how does one measure the best in a position?


You need every player in every position to play against his peers, the peers who he competes against for a position. I often wonder if players such as Morne Steyn, FOurie du Preez and Ruan Pienaar were playing in Super Rugby, would they still be selected?


There is no way of knowing unless they did play against their peers.


It seems it is rather impossible for some of these overseas players to be dropped, Mo rne Steyn can regularly make starting position in France, FOR A CLUB?





CE
Ceradyne
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Oct 2014, 11:55
#24
28 Oct 2014, 11:55#24

biltongbek

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 140 RE: Meyer the 50% man
October 28, 2014, 11:30:25

 Ceradyne.


Of course they have a right to play for SA, but to play for SA should be a priviledge, not a right.


Yes video recordings are available, but how does one measure the best in a position?


You need every player in every position to play against his peers, the peers who he competes against for a position. I often wonder if players such as Morne Steyn, FOurie du Preez and Ruan Pienaar were playing in Super Rugby, would they still be selected?


There is no way of knowing unless they did play against their peers.


It seems it is rather impossible for some of these overseas players to be dropped, Morne Steyn can regularly make starting position in France, FOR A CLUB?



It is and should be a privilege for any player. Not only those who play abroad. I have an issue with a player turning his back on SA. A player like CJ Stander, who made it clear that he is not interested in playing for SA. Josh Strauss also made it clear that he wanted to try and play for Scotland. Tim Swiel pulled out of the Junior Boks in case he wants to try and play for England in future. Rory Kockott has made it clear that he wants to play for France. There are probably others. We should forget about them, and others in a similar position, and stop speculating about their possible involvement in SA rugby.

Fourie du Preez, Morne Steyn and possibly Andries Bekker would probably not have been playing anymore because they would have been over played. Fourie was played with injuries by both Frans Ludeke and PDV. PDV kept him in the field with a shoulder injury because he did not have the balls to replace him when he got injured. The result was that the injury was aggravated. IIRC, it was the last game of the TN and PDV probably couldn't be bothered. Frans Ludeke did the same. HM got MS back on track at the end of 2012 when it was clear that he desperately needed a break because he was overplayed by both PDV and Frans Ludeke for six years in a row. He took over at the Bulls after Derick Hougaard left and Ludeke just kept playing him with little or no breaks and when PDV discovered that his worth, he did the same. HM kept on saying that he needed a break and he gave him a break, the moment there was someone else. He took him on the 2012 tour without playing him once and what happened? In 2013 Ludeke just carried on where he left off and played him again, game after game after game.



BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
28 Oct 2014, 12:02
#25
28 Oct 2014, 12:02#25
 Such confused thinking. Of course all South Africasn players have a right to be considered for selection - that is obvious.It is also obvious that if you want to field your best side( Again an obvious conclusion) you need to pick on merit. If the best player is overseas pick him. 
Why there is a need to debate this in not obvious. Sheer muddled thinking.
Meirt oaks is the rule we must not stray from.We cant afford not to play our best or have the best coaches etc.Guthro is not a merit selection. THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM. Habana IS A MERIT SELECTION (dispite ou snapsters nonsense).Even the racist anc is starting to recognise you cant employ cadres in the place of engineers. Man how much has abandoning the merit principle cost SA?? 
Away with anything that seeks to undermine merit. If all the best 15 players  were overseas pick them. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Oct 2014, 14:35
#26
28 Oct 2014, 14:35#26
Pick the players that help you win. The Great Trek never worked. 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 15:02
#27
28 Oct 2014, 15:02#27

Blue, I did comment on Jannie, check the bottom of my post. I said with Marcel, Malherbe and Frik Kirsten injured, I'd probably go with Jannie, but then again why not take Dreyer or Maks v/Dyk ahead of Jannie.

 

We do need to move on from Jannie and that would have been easy had the above 3 not been injured  

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 15:05
#28
28 Oct 2014, 15:05#28

Sharktwat....do you have a brain cell?

 

Because I selected Taute ahead of Morne does not mean Taute would play 10.......are you really that stupid, or is that a stupid question?

 

The squad has 4 flyhalves therefore Morne would be given the boot for any of my alternative backs including Taute.......you get it now you very stupid man.

 

Give Mnisi over the current Jean anyday  

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 15:29
#29
28 Oct 2014, 15:29#29

Rubbish, CJ Stander said he would play for the Boks if he got the call, the interview was in one of the SA rugby mags.

 

The notion that overseas based players should not be selected is short sighted, naïve and out of touch with the progressive nature of the world we live in today.

 

A coach should be able to select his best squad regardless of where they are based.....its the modern way.   

BI
biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 15:35
#30
28 Oct 2014, 15:35#30

 Saffex, let's for a moment consider CJ Stander.


How are you going to know he is better than those at home?


How do you measure him against a peer group that does not get the opportunity to measure up to him, or him to them?


Or do you simply select him because he showed promise a few years ago and show form in a totally different tournament?

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 16:11
#31
28 Oct 2014, 16:11#31
Um, that's pretty easy....I would measure him against the opposition he plays against up here who are on par with any opposition he would face if he played in the SH......unless of course you are implying  that the standard of club rugby up here is inferior to say the CC or S15? 
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 16:21
#32
28 Oct 2014, 16:21#32
 No, it has nothing to do with standards. It has to do with measuring a player one on one.
It is one thing to analyse a player on video and another to face him on the field of play.
Kieran Read was the player of the year last year, after he came back from his injury the kiwi's still believed he was the best, until Vermeulen showed him up.
Players learn from meeting an opponent, they learn their weaknesses and how to dominate them.
I want to see Stander dominate his competition and show he can best the best we can throw at him, then he deserves his spot.
He doesn't deserve his spot simply because he has built a reputation elsewhere.
Hy moet sy tril hier kom dik maak
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Oct 2014, 16:22
#33
28 Oct 2014, 16:22#33
Let mebe clear on the issue of foreign-based players.    We must bear in mind that we live in a "global village" - there is virtually no major center in the World from where you cannot get to SA in 24 hours.   So where we earn our living has nothingto do with it.
The problem is that many SA players - especially ex-Springboks are way past their prome performance years - and there is no real means to measure their performances.   They play on club level - and even when they show top preformance in club games, there is no means to know whether they are  still really up to standard performance-wse.   The danger is that they are selected based on reputation and not measurable performance.
Lets look at some individual players here.  We have had Juan Smith who was top class in teh Heinken Cup final and a serious flop in the Argentina test.   You can add a long list of serial flops to that one - Gurthro  Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha, Morne Steyn - to that one. Then you have the avera ge perfomers that never plays above average games - like Jacques Fourie, Ruan Pienaar, etc in the Springbok squad.
Are they any better than the local players playing on higher level - like the Super series?   There is no way to prove that they are and that is the main reason why selection of foreign-based players is at best a gamble based on reputation and not actual performance.   Since they are in their declining years they are no investment for the future either.   That is where BB has a point whuich really cannot be argued ag ainst.
Reputation selection is an abomination - hence my point of view that we can really do without virtually all the foreign-based playrs without weakening the Springbok team.                
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:06
#34
28 Oct 2014, 17:06#34
Biltong, your take makes absolutely no sense at all. If the standard of competition is the same globally then every time a player takes to the field he is testing himself against the relative best......so CJ testing himself against Heaslip, Billy Vin, Picamole etc is no different to him doing the same against Whitely, Vermeulen, Read, Higgenbottom etc
BI
biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:15
#35
28 Oct 2014, 17:15#35
We won't agree on this, you talking of a player testing himself in another pool of players, not our pool of players  
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Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:23
#36
28 Oct 2014, 17:23#36
What the hell have our pool of players got to do with anything......by saying that CJ has to test himself against our own players, you are implying that the players in the NH are inferior, failing which your point makes no sense at all
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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:29
#37
28 Oct 2014, 17:29#37

 How the hell do you not get this?


We are not selecting Heaslip, or any other European player, we are selecting South Africans.

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biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:30
#38
28 Oct 2014, 17:30#38
I don't care how he compares to Heaslip, I care how he compares to Schalk Burger, WIllem ALberts, Arno Botha etc.  
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:40
#39
28 Oct 2014, 17:40#39

What a load of absolute rubbish.....the selection of any player should be based on how they perform against opposition of similar standard, regardless of what nationality those players are.

 

Rugby is a skills test not a nationality test........so if CJ sets the world alight against Heaslip and co, you wont select him because he has not been tested against Alberts.......implying thereby that Alberts is superior to Heaslip.

 

What a load of naïve nonsense.......geez its conservative outlooks like this that holds our rugby back......its the kind of call Meyer or Ludeke would make

BI
biltongbek
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biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
28 Oct 2014, 17:54
#40
28 Oct 2014, 17:54#40

Competing against opposition of similar standard tells me only one thing. He is good enough to be considered.


What it doesn't tell me is he is the best we have.  

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