Midgets against Men

Yet another stormers disaster. I know that we believe rugby is a game for all sizes but to be brutally frank. I almost feel that you simply can not afford to have small men as your outside backs or even in your back row. 

Just watched the stormers get completely outmuscled out wide yet again with Jordi Barrett and Savea linking up beautifully to wipe the floor w ith 5 midget stormers trying to bring them to ground. Savea gets space out wide and gets held up by Kolbe who is basic hanging on. Savea offloads to Jordi Barret who sweeps around to gain a further 5 meters. within 3 seconds Savea gets back to his feet to receive the inside pass from Jordi as he is moved into touched. Savea makes a straight dart while the other stormers players that came to help Kolbe still lying on the ground. Savea powers over to score a try. 

Car goes to dot down but gets completely steam rolled and looses the ball which ends up gifting a try to Jordi. 

Save Charges down wide with Kolbe snapping at his heals without even slowing the man down. 

We saw the same last year with the Boks against the BaaBaas where Sergel and co got completely pulverised which led to the boks losing against a rag tag. 

We need to start finding some big strong outside backs that can defend these big players or we will always be on the losing end.

 I cannot add much to an excellent evaluation.  The problem is both ibn defense and attack,   Lets take the case of crosskicks by the halfbacks.   The midgets out wide has zero chance of recovering the ball in the air and are normally leaving hu ge gaps in defense.  
You will notice that I have suggested a  physically bigger Springbok backline - not necessarily with regard to pace.   I think that the best way to go is  get a center combination of De Allende and Vorster with the following being considered on the wing:-
Rhule, Combrinck and Van Wyk. 
One can do with a smaller flyhalf provided the defense of the players involved are sound -  this has also been the problem with bigger players like Fat Fransie and Morne Steyn.
As to the loosies - midgets should NEVER be in the loosie combination.   Loosies must in the main be hard workers and up to standard competing all over the field.   They consequently need to have some pace and physical strength.  
The Springboks for years played with three slow players as loosies on the pretense that the loosies are just an extension of the Tight 5 without any real contribution in for instance ball protection and recovery,   Incidentally the Stormers went the other way and that remains a problem for them.    They are not competitive in most aspects  of loosie play.    

The argument being three big loosies can't cover the field. But how many times does one see a loosie corner flagging these days? The fact is when you have a Vermeulen and an Alberts piling into the rucks and mauls......it sucks in the opponents loosies. So the contest becomes a power contest in close.........choose a bunch of less physical loosies and then it's our loosies out wide vs their loosies and we tend to lose that contest. . It's about forcing your opponents to play to your strengths, not trying to unsuccessfully match their strengths.

 Mozart
Alberts piling into rucks is foreign to what actually happened on the field of play.   He either arrived late at breakdown points or stand around behind mauls - the most useless loosie ever to play for SA.
I do not think you actually understand what is required from loosies - that being the reason for admiration for a man which was not a loosie ever - something between a  mixture or a lock and prop with a serious pace deficiency and a more seriously LOW work rate.  
Sorry to differ - but Alberts would nowhere in the world be regarded as a loosie.    Slow loosies may have a place in some teams - but only if they have a high work rate.  
I always rated Vermeulen as a loosie - despite his pace deficiency he was a hardworking player.       

Well Mike that's your view...here's somebody who disagrees: . The South African rugby team speaks often of their pride in playing for the Springbok jersey and there is one player whose jersey must be triple-pleated, given the sheer physical presence he brings to the team. Willem Alberts could be forgiven for bursting out of his top occasionally, not just because he clearly plays with such pride, but also because he is an imposing physical specimen whose upper body strength is formidable. By KEN BORLAND In choosing my Springbok player of the year, I am forced to disagree with the official nominations of Jean de Villiers, Bismarck du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Willie le Roux and Duane Vermeulen. That's because, in my estimation, the player that Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer is most loath to go into battle without is Alberts. The 1.92m, 120kg Alberts plays with the brute force that Meyer loves because it's the sort of weapon that wins the battle of the gain-line, which the coach believes is the crucial contest in modern-day Test rugby. Test rugby used to be decided by the tight fives and their efforts in scrums and lineouts, but phase play and the need for quick ball to penetrate much-improved defensive systems in the professional era means it is the collisions which are most crucial these days. And there is no greater force when it comes to collisions than Willem Alberts. When the 29-year-old crashes into the opposition, whether with ball in hand or tackling, it's enough for spectators to want to put helmets on and he is the main provider of momentum and stopper of the opposition go-forward in the Springbok team. Once Alberts had recovered from the injury niggles that hampered his SuperRugby season and saw him miss the first two Tests of the year, against Italy and Scotland, he played in every Test thereafter. And the human battering ram often did it when he was under an injury cloud. Such was his value in Meyer's eyes, that he would name Alberts in the starting XV and allow him to prove his fitness on the eve of the game. For such a big man, Alberts also has a high work rate and his tackle count was usually amongst the highest in the team; and a tackle from Alberts is generally a bone-jarring experience that perhaps should count as double compared to some tackles! (Yes, I mean those by fly-halves). Alberts played a key role in a top-class loose trio - there is a school of thought that it is the best in the world - and Meyer knew he could rely on the man known as "The Bone Collector" to dovetail superbly with Francois Louw and Duane Vermeulen.

 I read as far as high work rate and realized that the writer either has no idea of work rate and what it entails.   I went through Alberts ball carries stats and they were atrocious with an average of 4 carries per game making on average 1,8 meters territory gain in Super rugby and 2,2 meters in tests games.   The best game he ever played was in Paris in 2012.   He made 8 tackles and missed 4.   In other games he had the same kind of average in missed tackle ratios. 
However, his tackle ratio's were about 4 tackles per game.   For a loosie that indicates he was very poor in making tackles and especially no tackles in open field play.
Alberts was a total failure in ball protection and recovery and was never really a factor in mauls because he arrived too late to be a factor.  
Hype is everything in this case - facts count for nothing.     

 I have said this for years. I noted the problem of the small Stormers and small loose forwards years ago.The Stormers usually filed two decent props and great locks.Bongi and the loosies are micro lights. hence we give up our forward domination. We need to get in a bigger hooker who is also mobile. Also need an Elstadt type 7. The balance in the pack is very obviously wrong and is a direct consequence of quota selections.Again we had sizable wingers like Van Der Heever and Van Wyk who should still be at the Stormers but who left.Kolbe is a brilliant player and should be at scrumhalf.You have to be either a moron of acting under quota type orders to select like Fleck does. I suspect its all about quotas.
I have just switched on the Stormers Hurricanes tape

Just watched the Cheetahs throw away 21 points. What does it matter if you score tries but can't tackle or compete for the ball in the last 15 minutes. I thought, well done cheetahs. You ran circles around the guys. No such chance. And don't even get me started an Nazeem Carr. He is way past his sell by date. How many times does he give away possession.

 
The Stormers have weeds in their team.

A good big guy will always be better than a good small guy.

One on one ... and ... in every other way too.

Seems Fleck hasn't figured it our yet. How stupid is this man actually?

I agree with Ken Borland's article.
Alberts is the type of loose player that represents everything required from a player.
One of his biggest assets was that he had "BALLS"
CM u can quote all the stats u wish but u cannot deny that he played his heart out each and every time he took to the field.
Perhaps not your type of rugby player but then again who is?    

 Was at the the Chiefs game vs the Reds last night ,got a good close up look at wee Damien Mackenzie .He is tiny ! looks like a schoolboy who wandered into the seniors dressing room by mistake !But crikey he is worth more tha n guys twice his size no probs ,half his weight must consist of heart .

 
Yeah ... he is a class act and if heart was all that one needed he would be first choice in most sides. Same goes for Kolbe.

Thing is though, the bigger boys are keeping him out of the All Black side.

 Kolbe?...are you serious? Geeeeez my chances of making the Bok side has just skyrocketed!

 McKenzie is indeed a class act with two supporting factors in his game -
*   he has ball sense and reads games perfectly which resulted in him choosing the right running lines and kicking options;
*   he has perfect partners in the outside back combination and they do a major part in both attacking and defending.
It is only when poor defense and attacks are left to three midgets that things go totally wrong.   If the center situation is also jeopardized by midgets the whole situation becomes as bad as the Stormers have become in their New Zealand tour.
           

Lol...some small men can be very strong...remember Mannetjies Roux way back...one of the greatest ever....generalisation can be faulty.

https://youtu.be/OJCGFCd5gdo

 AJ
I like hardworking players and Alberts was a notorious loafer in games.   He rarely entered mauls preferring to stand around in the back hoping to be first receiver and make one of his rare ball carries.  Slow and useless as a loosie without the ability to properly pass balls.
The hype about bone-crushing tackles was meaningless as well.   He could make strong tackles if players ran straight at him - but most players did not and his resultant tackles when not missing them completely was average to poor.
Sorry to differ from you - the hype was overwhelming, the results atrocious.   I never fell for that one and whenever he was involved it was disastrous.  The best examples were in the AB test in Johannesburg in 2013 when he did successfully lost the test for the Springboks when he -
*  missed a tackle in Read which let to the first try of the AB's; and*  instead of trying to recover the ball after a tackle - he was nearest to the tackle breakdown - he fell over his own feet (clumsy as hell) and the AB's recovered the ball and subsequently scored a try. 
The above two examples was typically Alberts play - he was not better in other tests or super rugby games.  Maybe he would have been a successful prop - a lock or loosie he never was.          
      

 
I disagree. Alberts was a class act. A valuable asset to Bok rugby. His work rate was good. He was a very strong ball carrier and produced an awesome amount of go forward in his day. His defense was solid and was known in certain circles as the bonecrusher.

We haven't had a blindside flank of his calbre since.

I'd give my left nut to see him back in his prime playing at 7 for the Boks.

 CC
Alberts was in my opinion never a class act after 2012.   However, he was by 2013 way past his prime and has since been injured more and more frequently.   I cannot remember a really good match by him since 2012-13 and that is why I do not think he should have been in the Springbok team at all.
Even though he subsequently joined Stade Francais he seemed to suffer from continuous injuries as well and rarely played for them this past season.   Maybe it was injuries - maybe it was because he was just not good enough to justify selection. 

 
Well then ... perhaps it's time you have your prescription checked.

Alberts was a one man wrecking crew. He was feared and respected across the globe and in his day there was no one better.

An absolute class act.

 CC
His day was gone by 2013 - since then he rarely played due to continuous injuries and when he did he was fairly useless.   Maybe he was good before that year - since then he was a reputation player.   Sorry to disagree - but that really is not the point discussed here.
The problem was the poor and unbalanced loosie combination notorious in SA teams and the use of midgets as loosies.   The ideal weight of loosies should be between 105 to 114 kgs.   At the same time they should be speedy enough to compete and should be good ball handlers.
Teams can have smaller opensiders - but then may must be good in ball recovery at breakdown situations and steals in such instances.   Of those I believe only Cloete meets the requirement - both Kriel and Kolisi are inadequate.   But Cloete only played in games in Africa Conference and against Aussie teams and it is not certain what he would produce in games against New Zealand teams, where opponents are much more physical.  
The question is how are we going to find competitive loosies, bearing in mind that Louw at 6 is not competitive either.   I would rather see the following combination of loosies taking everything into account:-
6   Van der Walt, Labuschagne7   Du Preez, Elstadt, Ackerman, Louw,  Mohoje8   Whiteley
However  one can be pretty certain that it would not be what the quota system allows for so we will continue to have a substandard loosie combination iro the Springbok team.        

Well who introduced Alberts anyway Mike...now you have had your head handed to you you don't want to talk about it. And where do you get your stats, I have found no site that gives career long metre per run numbers.

 All the information u need on rugby can be found on the Riversdale Rugby site.
Mostly it is offline but for an unbiased opinion, it has no peers.

 Lol.

 
The so called stats you have on Alberts is fabricated nonsense. Please produce the site where his stats can be viewed by all.  Appreciate it.

All I can tell you about him as that I saw him play regularly and so did the entire planet. You my dear Mike are the ONLY one to say he was useless in his day. Talk about being prejudice without looking at the facts. 

As is the case with age ... it robs us all of our strength and vigour. Matfield was a genius. So was Fourie Du Preez ... in their day ... and much to your dismay ... Willem Alberts was a power house second to none. We won many a match because of what he did.

Lappies is a weed in comparison. Alberts would run right over the top of him without even noticing him. They would probably have to take Lappies off on a stretcher after that encounter.

Perhaps you're getting a little long in the tooth to remember that far back. What else can explain it?

Not sure how Ackerman qualifies for Bok status. At this stage in time he most definitely is not one I would want to see in the Bok 7 jersey. That goes for the other ignorant picks of yours too.







 

 CC
I am happy to differ - but some players through aging becomes useless and in some cases it happen sooner than in others.
In any event I use the ESPN stats and that tells a person a lot about the work rate of players.   Anyway to argue about Alberts will really not serve any purpose - since he rarely played in enough matches since the Ellis Park disaster in 2013 to which I referred earlier.   He was constantly injured and as a result in the WC he was on the bench for I believe two matches.   His last test was against the AB's and his stats will tell you all about his latest performance:-
Alberts0/000/1/430000 1/20/000/0
In the test he carried the ball 1 time making 4 meters - made 1 tackle and missed 2.   For the rest he did squat in the test indicating that he was a has been and a bad one at that.   The only positive was he beat three defenders in that one carry.   For the rest he might as well not have been on the field of play.  
In any event - we differ on the Alberts issue and I think that you are really beating a dead horse here. 
My contention is that we need desperately a more balanced loosie combination of stronger and faster players than the lot used last year and my only effort was to identify some candidates.        

 
Mike ... are you deliberately being stupid?

I have already told you that age catches us all. I am not referring to the Alberts of today and you know it.

You claimed he was useless ALL his rugby life and to strengthen your statement you decided to use stats as proof.

Please produce these so called stats.

Let me guess ... you'll be responding shortly with another long story about beating dead horses ... blah, blah, blah ... right?

When are you going to learn that some people may call your bluff and when they do you had better have something to back your statement up.

What an arse you are.

 CC
I never said Alberts was always useless - I said he showed nothing since 2013 when he in fact was more injured than he played.
Sorry about the disagreement and I hope the matter is settled now, 

I am not going to go around and around with you on this, Mike.

I think my annoyance at your twisted facts is clear enough.

In future just remember that we were all once young ... and strong ... including Willem Alberts ... and that giving credit where credit is due shows respect to those who were extraordinary at one time or another in their lives.

What have you ever done that can match their achievements ... other than selling your people out for financial gain as a card carrying member oif the ANC?

 

 

 Looks like this thread got picked up 
http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/Kiwis-giants-show-why-size-matters
Really good article pointing out the size difference, but the swinging light of the weekend was the sharks Nkosi running circles around the Force. Good size, speed and a step to boost. Solid in tackling too and only 21

 Bluebok
As far as I know Nkosi is only 19 years of age not 21.       Very good start to his career - but have to proof himself yet on Super Rugby level.  

On second thoughts using pre professional players like Mannetjies Roux does not answer the question of small players being good enough.

Mannetjies Roux was a huge exception because he was a mighty mouse and a freak...a potent attacker and hard hitting defender when called for...he played centre and wing but he also had one of the strongest hard hitting defenders in Joggie Jansen beside him.

A perfect combination of first and second centre would have been Pieter Muller and Danie Gerber.

Yes it is true that Province backline is too light but on the otherhand don't underestimate the exception smaller player and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...Gio Aplon was an exception some time ago.

The Stormers are a little too extreme in their balance to play the NZ'ers.

Players are getting bigger in the modern game...for the stat freaks

How big will rugby players get? - BBC News