Mighty Chiefs combo looking good

.... Dynamic duo SBW and Aaron Cruden right at home last night at Waikato stadium  mockingbirds....cementing themselves into the first and second five positions for the ABs... Cane no slouch either....Waikato Stadium, formerly known as Rugby Park has been the graveyard for many a visiting team including Springbok and now Irish eyes are'nt smiling so much either to be sure haha...semifinal football coming to Waikato stadium soon so side step the graveyard if you can mockingbirds...

Sitting Bull

Agree with you about the All Black's performance - it was just brilliant annd that is where I gave Cruden top marks - he started it all.   The rest was easy to follow.

How come you made no mention of the Junior All Blacks?   Believe me when I say that in five years time you are going to have major problems with the All Black forwards - the cupboard is really bare - they were completely destroyed on Friday night - big problem for the future.

sitting bull I hope you have smoked a good pipe and are able to comprehend two things. Firstly the chiefs will fold when paying the crusties (chiefs are not warrior tribe) so you will not top the log.

Secondly ab performance against Irish in third test means zip - Irish didnt even tackle. If you want true assessment of Irish sitting bull and his many sqauw advisiors must look at second test where Irish were the better side and should have won.

Beeno the realist trying hard to straighten out bent and delusional kiwis!!! Its the dope they smoke that is part of the problem!

@clevermike,

nah bro, NZ dont have longterm problems anywhere except for our hookers, NZu20 was a big shame, but the NZRU wouldnt allow our u20 spXV players to be released to play, cos they wanted to give others a chance at some high profile rugby.
the 2012 crop they picked was definately left wanting, but dont forget NZ won 2008-2011 and still came 2nd in 2012, so the future of NZ rugby looks set to be very competitve as it always has.

NZ forward depth for next 5 years and their current age

props
owen franks - 24
ben taumafuina - 20
toby smith -  23
charlie faumuina - 24
angus taavao - 22
jeff allen - 22

hooker (a little worried about hooking depth)
motu matuu - 24
brayden mitchell - 22

locks
brodie retallick - 21
luke whitelock - 21
sam whitelock - 23

loose forwards
sam cane - 20
matt todd - 24
luke braid - 23
nasi manu - 23
brad shields - 21
victor vito = 24

IMO we dont have a problem with depth, especially when u keep in mind that NZ rugby player production factory keeps spitting out new players year in and year out and that the last two years NZ has had record numbers of youngsters register to play rugby.

sasucks it no use squaking about your young talent when you have just been thrashed by the baby Boks with a largely second string backline. Just acdcept your future status reverting to pre islolation days   ie being second best to the Boks.

And please sassucks no more silly player ratings re the third test . The second tam girls netball side would have played better than the irish so of curse yourpalookas woud look good. Be sensible about this non event.

Is it not time Mccheat hung  his boots along with a number of other nz plodders?

@ben10,

i love how the truth means so little to u, :)

here are the facts and actual winning percentages pre isolation,,,
All Blacks - 68.4%
Springboks - 63%

after isolation,,,
All Blacks - 80.1%
Springboks - 63.3%

looking forward to ur next batch of wild inaccurate claims, mornes goal kicking is more accurate then ur rugby knowledge ben10 aka der aristokratt aka pieter van zyl.

 

Sasu

I was just looking at the Juniors - when i wrote that comments.  Thanks for the info about the others.   I will look out for them carefully in future.   That may solve your forward problem - but I am not entirely convinced that they would still be good at international level.  The one I saw in the tests was Retallick - big but not very imposing  and also some of the others in Super 15 - none of them really impressed me, but ypu may ssee it differently.  As we say in SA - Retallick does not seem to have the mongrel in him.

In general I think we have a better crop of young forwards than you have in New Zealand - but that the backline would be even - steven or in your favour.  What a star Cruden is?  Real top class.   However, it is difficult to judge on one game only - but he was also a star performer in the Super 15.  Our preent backline is anything but upo to standard.  problem is the inside halves - I have no problems with the others.    However, in the younger crop we have some really brilliant ones.   To name a few that is still under 21 - Goosen (20), Lambie (21), Serfontein (20), Howard (20), Pollard (18), Jordaan (20) to name but a few.  There are others like Small-Smith (anything but small), Van Wyk, Taute and Hammond as well.   Of the above Lambie has already played on international level and Goosen, Taute and Jordaan on Super 15 level.   The others will do so sooner rather than later. 

Serfonetein especially is pure class    Those 3 tackles he broke to score the winning try should tell you something and also the tackles he took and put in - hard as nails that one.

Amongst the forwards of those not playing in the juniors - there are Oosthuizen, Coetzee, Malherbe, Elstadt  and a list of others a mile long -  Coetzee and Oosthuizen already played on international level and proved themselves - the other two on Super 15 level.    All are under  21.   We have a production line of forwards par excellence.   What is evident also is the size of those youngsters.  Apart from the props - the midget amongst them is Coetzee (6'3"  and 115 kgs)   The rest are all reaching to be 6"8" and above 118 kilos - ie even to Retallick or bigger than him.  Line outs could become a major problem - a team with five jumpers definitely ahve an advantage over other tteams and that is what is happening here.

Just one more thing - the star amongst the lot seems to be Du Toit - he is over 7 feet tall and can run like a backline player.  Deadly defender too.   Watch out for him in future.

I may be wrong - but I think that is where the problem is going to be for New Zealand in years to come.  

My own impression is that a back line can perform well if they get good ball from the forwards - that yesterday was definitely the case and for the sake of New Zealand rugby I hope it continues. 

sa-sue stop dodging the issue. I said that we had a 15 % winning margin over the abs pre isolation. Hence pre isolation we were better than the abs. We were also better than any other team. hence we were the best. Get used to the truth. IYou use stats of all matches played but you oaks must have plauyed more soft matches. The fact is if we were better than you lot and better than everyone else we have to be the best pre isoloation

Post isolation we have had quotas and political interference culminationg in ou pdv who became the laughing stock of world rugby . You have never had to deal with that.

End of story.

Bwahahahahahahahha this nz kiwi bird is side stepping for all he is worth.

Mike tell me more about Du Toit who is over 7 ft tall and runs like a back. But please be brief as ou sa-sue may have a faint at the future ab prospects dim as they are.

Come now Beeno - you know I refer to Pieter Steph Du Tpoit.  never heard of him??

Mike even Bekker is not that tall  - your stats must be faulty. ou hakwa can relax a bit. Hehehehehe poor guy has been very stressed.

But I agee Du Toit looks like a great in the making if if he is not 7 ft tall.

Sorry Beeno - I mixed it up.  Du Toit is 2 meter as far as I know

@clevermike,

u have touched on my biggest issues with all junior players, are they going to be good enough once they reach international level???

i say that the ability is there, but natural ability will only get u so far, cos the currie cup/ITM, spXV are on a whole different level altogether and one i dont think that all can step up too. dont even get me started on international level, lol.

ur assessment retallick is spot on, hes not exactly the most mongrel of players, but what i see in him personally is something very similar to sam whitelock and that is his ability to get round the field and do all the work expected of a lock. and while retallicks not oozing with mongrelness, hes not exactly lacking it either, u need only watch his work at the breakdowns to see that, plus he also strengthens our lineouts, a small problem that the All Blacks have always had.

sam cane was very impressive for the All Blacks and many AB fans myself included are getting caught up in his hype during his 60mins gametime, he made 14 tackles , 8 runs, 2 trys, 1 try assist, 3 offloads, 4 tackle breaks, 1 linebreak and 4 pilfers and this on top of his performance in test 2 where he cam off the bench and made 7 runs, 11 tackles, 2 tackle breaks and 1 offload, very powerful numbers from the 20year old. the warning u gave me on du toit, is the same warning im giving with sam cane, but his real test will be once he plays against the Boks and wallabies, so heres hoping he passes with flying colours.

like i said with sam whitelock 23, owen franks 24, kerean read 25m the promising youngesters coming thru, im very comfotable with the next 5 years easy, but of the guys i listed that have the potential, sam cane (chiefs), matt todd (crusaders), brad shields (hurricanes), charlie faumuina (blues), motu matuku (hurricanes), luke braid (blues), toby smith (chiefs)m ben taumafuina (chiefs), and nasi manu (highlanders) are the ones to keep a special eye out for. im always watching the carefully.

i will say i agree that SA production factory is more impressive, the quality forward u keep producing is immense, but im not sold on their ability to preform at Bok level. obviously u have a core of players ready to step up, but look how much the Bok forwards lost the go forward once alberts was out of the eqaution, or when bismarck was subbed, the scrum became notably weaker and all this against a rebuilding english team.

the spXV is also an indicator of sorts as to how the elite players perform, and SA and OZ clubs are always dominating the wrong end of the ladder, coaching is an issue, but players are more accountable.

players like lambie speak for themselves, he already proven hes class and worth at every level of the game, IMO hes the best defensive fullback in the world and his ability to play 10 at international level makes him one of the most valuable members of the Boks.

i said in another post we discussed that i was very impressed with the argentinian v jrboks game, especially serfontein who impressed me the most and was deserved junior player of the year. i am however not sold on him transferring those skills to the Boks, cos thats a different game altogether. IMO, judgment should be reserved after we witness his game at currie cup and then spXV level.

goosen whose highest level of rugby to date is the currie cup and spXV, has the most potential to succeed. i neve thought there would ever be a player like daniel carter in my lifetime, but goosen is already ticking all the right boxes and it wouldnt surprise me to see him surpass the feats of the worlds greatest 10 ever.

i am a massive fan of coetzee, oosthuizen and elsdtat, was ver surprised to see elsdtat plus a host of other stormer players not included in the Bok squad, especially his ability to cover the looseforwards and 2nd row, but his quiet games the last few weeks might have come back to haunt him.

not sold on malhebre, from what i noticed hes always coming of the bench most times anyway, i get the imprssion that harris and kitshoff are the incumbents???

the performanc efrom the forwards goes a long way to the success of the team, i dont share the view that u have where we might struggle in te future, but my opinion is biased. i will say i am very confident that we will be fine and i too hope so for NZs sake. if history is anything to go by, then u would be a brave man to be against it.

 I was a member of a boxing club in my younger days in Durban and one thing that was drilled into our heads by our trainer was:

NEVER EVER UNDERSTAMATE YOUR OPPONENT/S

Guess what guys...he was spot on.

I also instilled those words in my children and grandchildren and it sure helped them as well.

The AB's can/should never be pushed aside and underestimated...just check the records.

As I Springbok supporter I am also impressed with their depth year after year.

What a pity...but great for RUGBY.

Make no mistake - I do not under-estimate the All Blacks.   When I made the remarks about their forwards I was thinking of the Junior final - where they were second class by a mile.   I for one would say that the future does not look very bright insofar as forward play of the All Blacks are concerned.  Years ago on a forum I said that McCaw was a real star - but even the New Zealanders differed from me when I said that a year before he actually was selected.   

Cane is good - but he was fortunate inasmuch as he played against an under-par irish team.   Will he be good enough on international level against stronger teams - the jury is out on that one.   If you compare Retallick to Etzebeth - my vote willl go invariably to Etzebeth.

Insoafar as Serfontein is concerned I think he is unfortnate inasmuch as he is vieing with Francois Steyn at inside center and that is unlikely to change before the next WC.    He has huge potential though.   My first choice to replace De Villiers at 13 is and remains Jordaan.

However. my original comments related to forwards - and that is the crux of the discussion I believe.   I do not agree with Sasu about Malherbe though - he is better anytime than Harris as was proved in the latest Super 15 game between the Bulls and the Stormers - where he and Kitshoff made the Bulls scrummaging look like kids.   He was one youngster eyed by Meyer and kept in the Springbok squad to further test the waters.

To come back to the Junior final - it was not only the driving mauls that let to numerous penalties against the AB Juniors - it was more specifically one scrum where the AB Juniors collapsed like a house of cards and which changed the whole tenour of the game.    None of the AB Junior Forewards - other than the 8 - would have been selected to play ahead of the Junior Springbok forwards.

Sasu - I respect your opinions as to the potential forwards of New Zealand.  Howeer, renewal would be necessary and I have my doubts about the forwards renewal overall.   The two players to make the grade is Retallick and Cane - but who else would be able to make the step up from Super 15 level to international level?      

.

SA produces more players than NZ but NZ develops more talent. both nations will still be powerhouses of rugby going forward. pre isolation cant bemeasured because SA for the first 30 or 40 odd years was utter rubbish at rugby.

at he rate that SA produces players we should be the best at every level of rugby but that has not been the case

Carpetmucher

Agree with you - we cannot live in the past.   I think the difference is cpoaching that makes New Zealand the top playing country.   We have the material - but are we making optimum use of it?   I have high hopes for Morne - but not so high for the rest of his coaching staff.   That should be changed and made more dynamic.   I would rather bring in people like Monty and even Carel Du Plessis as coaches for back;line play than the nonentity we have now/.