Montpellier - WP game

The following from News 24:-

"Western Province face a tough encounter in their second and final pre-Currie Cup clash against Top 14 giants Montpellier in Millau on Thursday.

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Kick-off is at 19:00.

Springbok hooker Bismarck du Plessis will start for the French side in the friendly, alongside no fewer than seven other SA-born players in the starting XV.

Montpellier have named a largely first-choice line-up, with Du Plessis starting alongside brother Jannie in a team that includes experienced Springbok internationals Ruan Pienaar and Frans Steyn, as well as former All Blacks flyhalf Aaron Cruden.

Johan Goosen will make his first appearance for the team since announcing his comeback.

Another South African, Wiaan Liebenberg, will wear the captain’s armband.

Western Province head coach John Dobson said that his team is expecting a tough examination from a quality Montpellier side.

"We are facing a top side which is full of quality players and also finishing up their pre-season preparations, so we are prepared for a major test," Dobson said.

"It has been a great build-up here in Millau, where we have been treated exceptionally well, so we are looking forward to the challenge that we will face."

Western Province beat Narbonne 59-14 in their first friendly last Saturday.

Western Province will kick off their Currie Cup campaign against the Free State Cheetahs at Newlands on Saturday, August 25.

Teams:

Montpellier

15 Johan Goosen, 14 Vincent Martin, 13 Yvan Reilhac, 12 Frans Steyn, 11 Gabriel N’Gandebe, 10 Aaron Cruden, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Martin Devergie, 7 Julien Bardy, 6 Wiaan Liebenberg (captain), 5 Paul Willemse, 4 Nico Janse van Rensburg, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Grégory Fichten

Substitutes: 16 Vincent Guidicelli, 17 Yvan Watremez, 18 Julien Le Devedec, 19 Kévin Kornath, 20 Henry Immelman, 21 Timoci Nagusa, 22 Enzo Sanga, 23 Levan Chilachava, 24 Romain Ruffenach, 25 Konstantin Mikautadze, 26 Thomas Darmon, 27 Julien Tomas, 28 Antoine Guillamon

Western Province

15 SP Marais, 14 Craig Barry, 13 JJ Engelbrecht, 12 Dan Kriel, 11 Sergeal Petersen, 10 Dillyn Leyds (captain), 9 Jano Vermaak, 8 Juarno Augustus, 7 Kobus van Dyk, 6 Chris Massyn, 5 JD Schickerling, 4 Salmaan Moerat, 3 Michael Kumbirai, 2 Ramone Samuels, 1 Ali Vermaak

Substitutes: 16 Scarra Ntubeni, 17 Caylib Oosthuizen, 18 Neethling Fouche, 19 Ernst van Rhyn, 20 Chad Solomon, 21 Johan du Toit, 22 Herschel Jantjies, 23 Josh Stander, 24 Paul de Wet, 25 Dan du Plessis, 26 Duncan Saal"

Even though it is a weakened team due to players being in the test squad or being injured iro of the WP team I would love to see the game - ut that is not likely to be on TV.  

You just know Goosen is good for a 20 point deficit before they even kickoff. That's if he doesn't injure his buttock sitting in the coach. 

Ag the idiot spout BS again - stupid and uninformed as usual.

Goosen is a class act Augen. Pity WP wont be anywhere near full strength.

Was, a class act.

Shezza

Her was the French club player of the year in 2016 - had a bust up with Racing Metro and did not play any rugby in 2017.   In 2016 he scored tries for the then Springbok team and was consequently demonized by Mozart, who regard scoring of tries as not necessary in rugby.   Not sure about the "was a class act" comment  in this case.   He is only 25 and has a few more years of rugby ahead of him.   

Another performance like he had in 2016 - and he may be ba ck in the Springbok team.   

Shezza

Her was the French club player of the year in 2016 - had a bust up with Racing Metro and did not play any rugby in 2017.   In 2016 he scored tries for the then Springbok team and was consequently demonized by Mozart, who regard scoring of tries as not necessary in rugby.   Not sure about the "was a class act" comment  in this case.   He is only 25 and has a few more years of rugby ahead of him.   

Another performance like he had in 2016 - and he may be ba ck in the Springbok team.   

I knew you'd say that. I've reached the point where I can accurately predict your responses. 

Goosen is pretty average. However, he did have a good test ball in hand in 2016 against Argentina. Almost identical stats to Kirchner's Japan test in the world cup, so that might make him poor by your very obscure standards. He did, however, concede 4 turnovers and missed 50% of his tackles. So, it his attacking prowess came with a steep price. 

In the second Argentina test he was much less effective ball in hand and seemingly uninvolved on defence with one tackle. He conceded 5 turnovers. So, again, he is a high risk player to have in the team, a was one of the weak links in that loss to Argentina.

Against Australia there were lots of metres run, but nothing very constructive. Another cul-de-sac. Also poor on defence and in the aerial game. He offered very little to Improve the team. Certainly, we missed Willie tremendously. 

Against New Zealand he was nowhere to be seen on attack and his defence was again very poor. Bled more possession again with annoying turnovers.

Against England, he was again a cul-de-sac that missed 50% of his tackles. He scored a try, but what of the rest of his game?

Against Wales. More cul-de-sac running. Lots of metres, but what came of it? Poor defence and again conceding turnovers. 

No Clever Mike. Goosen was at best a patchy performer. Fullback is clearly his best position, but there are to many cons to his game. He gave the Boks no competitive edge and was in fact exploitable. Hence why he was dropped. 

Ag kak - normal from a moronic prejudiced fool.  

But Rabbi ESPN confirms. Is Rabbi ESPN now a BStr doofus? 

AgainBster

Don't try the Mozart tricks - quote the full stats and not just parts of it that may or may not support  BS arguments.  

AgainBster

Don't try the Mozart tricks - quote the full stats and not just parts of it that may or may not support  BS arguments.  

I quoted exactly what was required for the comment I made. He was not the player you believe he was. Hence he got dropped. The funny part is that your stats haven is against you. Oh the dilemma. Back to your cauldron to brew another lie, no doubt. 

Goosen's defence was never better than Morné's. Morné was an impactful tackler that could physically manhandle forwards. The only 10s we've had in the past 20 years who can do that at test level was Butch and Pollard. 

Goosen is a fleet footed runner. Right from the beginning of Super rugby in 2012 I saw him as a fullback. Not a popular view at the time, but one which has been vindicated. If you can get him into the line from fullback he can cause problems. Only if there is space, so with the centres we have, we can't take advantage of the things he does well . He bleeds possession in any kind of contact. He just doesn't have the strength. Kirchner was a more physical runner who could handle physicality. He would always rank highly for assists. We need someone more like that, if we have an alternative to Willie. Goosen is a less physical Kriel with a bigger boot. 

At 10 Goosen had trouble reading the game, and would play too far away from the gainline. His favourite move was to run parallel to the defensive line and look for a crashball angling in. I can think of many instances where he was poor on attack. He had no instinct for a draw and pass, and would deliver the ball with the defender. Poor Taute may have still been a Bok in 2013 had Goosen picked up his clever runs. He never made an impactful tackle from 10 from the Boks. Not one. His awareness of what was happening around him wasn't very good. That said, he was able to identify gaps quickly. The problem was that he would get turned over at the very first tackle. It was hard to retain possession when he ran the ball, something that was still an issue when he played fullback.

Morné was the better decision maker and and communicated much better. Communication is never brought up by fans, but the communication between 10 and 12 in particular is critically important. Goosen was never a good manager of the game or decision maker, but he was a elusive runner. He couldn't attack from 10 though, so I have been vindicated because I correctly identified that his penchant for running would be best served at 15 coming into the line with more time to read the game. His big boot made the transition very logical. Low and behold, Goosen's best performances for South Africa and domestic rugby have all been at 15. There really is no comparison. 

Ag Morne was a defender?   maybe up to 2012 - thereafter he was the poorest flyhalf defender I have seen for decades.  And his decisionaking took time - hence he stoo d so far back in the pocket - he may even have been in the car park  He was a slow dsecisionmaker after receiving the ball standing still.   Anybody regarding Morne as a flyhalf is making a huge mistake.  That is what Stade Francais realized after they contracted him.

He became their bench flyhalf and if one cannot make the club team as a starter - how the hell can he a top flyhalf?   Explain that one to me please.  

Duplication

AgainBSter

You cannot use selective stats to support your BS deductions and what you want to prove as to what you dreamed up as happening. So when you have a test series you may use stats as an indicator what happened to players in the series,   Stats would indicate what trends their are in a specific players performance.

I never use stats for one match to prove anything and when I do I post the full stats of individual players iro matches.   Not  only what I want to use to denigrate a player.            

By the way using stats must be accurate and not falsified so I am giving you the Aussie test stats for 2012 test against Australia:-

Nothing you said about that test was true - it was all BS.   Making a try assist and a line break and tackling 14 players without missing one - is telling and he passed the ball twice as much as he kicked it or run with it.   Over his career Morne always kicked the ball twice as amany times as he passed it and carrying the ball himself was an extreme rarity.   .  Wake up - your dream world is crumbling.  

Contrary to one claim made on this board, and according to one prediction made on this board, this SA player plays as a back. The 10 NZ is the starter.

Nope, this guy did not leave his previous club because they prevented him from playing at 10. He left because he wanted the money now (instant gratification) and could not be bothered to wait for the end of the season. He dropped out, he betrayed his president, his teammates, his supporters.

Anti rugby behaviour.

Game is going to be poor. Too many SA players involved.

Introduce a few SA players for the colour. Too many ruins the game.

I know why Clever Mike says Morné stood too deep. He doesn't know that it's very common to play behind pods, using these pods as screens and decoys. Clever Mike thinks the foremost authorities on the game are stupid, and should have the midfield set the forwards up to play like backs. 

Either that, or I am giving him too much credit and he literally knows nothing and is lying. 

Goosen didn't make 1 effective tackle in 2012 against Australia. He was very poor in that game. He missed open runners, go turned over, nearly botched the Kirchner try. The most significant player in that game was Habana. He sparked almost everything. This is a great example of why I don't like stats overall, because the criteria that is used for a successful tackle is evidently too loose and inconsistent. Give a player a neck rub and you have yourself a successful tackle. I saw this has been discussed before when searching through past threads. You lost those debates pretty badly.

Worse than this, I cited stats for several tests and you accuse me of using one. Illiteracy. Or dishonesty. Even if what you claimed about his 2012 tests was true, his recent tests would indicate that he has regressed over the years. This makes your praise of his past irrelevant for your current desire to have him in the current squad. 

Your opinion on effective tackles is about the same level as your madness about Morne being an effective tackler.    He never was one and his great achievements since  2013 was test after test a higher than 30% missed tackle ratio.  In his last starting test under Meyer (ie the Perth test in 2014) he  made 8 tackles missing 7 - ie a missed tackle ratio of 46%. 

There is no indication that Goosen in fact regressed.   He played at 10 in 2012 and for Racing in 2016 played at 13.   He had very little full back play at that stage spead over years - where the rabid Coetzee slotted him in the Springbok team.    There is a difference playing in those two positions as against playing at 15 - but that is most likely beyond your comprehension insofar as the game of rugby is concerned.

But then you take lessons from the archliar Mozart - who claimed that a try-saving tackle on Kerevi in the Aussie test in 2016 was a "weak tackle".    The same idiocy applies to your tackle situation pertaining to Morne as a player tackling players backwards  is concerned.         

Now back to the game yesterday.   That team of WP was effectively a joke - very few of the listed players in fact would make the Stormers Super Rugby side,   I counted about 5 - the rest would not. 

Lleyds at flyhalf is a serious indication of what they were capable of.   Yet they lost the game 26-7 against the first level team of Montpellier.   That shows only one thing - the NH club rugby is not strong enough to compete against SH teams.   

The full Stormers and WP teams would have thrashed Montpellier badly.       

Being knocked back while going high, on your heels, does not qualify as an effective tackle. Shall I bump that thread to the top? Or shall I spare you the reintroduction of another embarrassment? It shouldn't be a surprise that you are a Goosen fan, you always side with the worst players. 

I actually never did comment on a Kerevi tackle. 

Score was 24-7 BTW, thought the opponent was too good for WP.

To think, this forum has nearly 31000 such posts by Clever Mike lurking in every nook and cranny. Like termites. 

Aag, Lurker, leave Oom Maaik be.

AgainBSter would have many more posts if he never used his original user name - he change them virtually monthly and the reasons were given before under another thread/

Draad

I was not convinced by Montpellier.   With all oftheir top players playing - they managed to lead by only 14-7 at halftime against a WP team that was severely jeoperdaized by injuries and by missing players on national duty.  

This was even a much weaker WP team than the Cheetahs were in Pro 14 last year and Montpellier was one of the Top teams in the Top 14  last year and was in the play-offs.   That indicates the level of rugby in the various club competitions in Europe despite their looting of SH players by the clubs - for instance Montpellier had 9 SA and NZ  players in their starting line-up with a further 1 on the bench.  

 . 

Maaik, that wasn't a serious match. The players had a bit of fun. You can't read much in that results.

Yet they lost the game 26-7 against the first level team of Montpellier.   That shows only one thing - the NH club rugby is not strong enough to compete against SH teams.  

No. It shows that a team composed with many SA players do not based its plan on attack. It is all about defence and trying to milk situations to get penalties, mauls, begging to the ref... That is all.

This season will show how this SA player heavily loaded team will do in european competitions.

This team display in their last league finals was one of the most disgusting rugby games ever watched.

Do not expect teams with many SA players to play rugby. SA rugby is all about anti rugby.

Was the case on Thursday last week and the quality of the game produced show that most of the Montpellier has beens should never be back in the Springbok team.

First half 14-7 - but really Mozart - do you call that collection a WP team?