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FORUM / RUGBY /  Morne Steyn & Ruan Pienaar Combo

Morne Steyn & Ruan Pienaar Combo

Started by Plum7 REPLIES593 VIEWS· 09 Jun 2014, 14:20
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PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
09 Jun 2014, 14:20
#1
09 Jun 2014, 14:20#1

First. I don't pretend to know it all when it comes to rugby. I've made this post to hopefully get some insight which i may be missing and which is causing me no end of frustration when watching our national team.


Let me start with Morne Steyn and what i feel picking his says about the way we want to play. Right, so lets assume for a moment that we are able to give Dan Carter, Quad Cooper and Morne Steyn some points out of ten for certain aspects of their roles.


Lets score them for kicking, attacking, defense and decision making.


We can pretty much break those fields down into two categories. Kicking and "the rest". 


Now if you were to score these guys on their kicking game, all three would probably score near perfect marks out of ten. So we move on to "the rest" category. The category that talks about the other facets which they posses and can offer to the team. As far as i can tell Dan Carter is the pick of the three here and i would give him a 9/10. Actually i'd give him a 10/10 but screw it he's an All Black. Cooper, well probably pretty close to 10/10 too. Both of those guys are vipers on attack and read the game at near genius level. Then we get to Morne Steyn. 


What would you guys give him out of ten, remembering we have already scored him for his kicking and this other score is now for the rest of his play. Really i struggle to see any reason to give him anything higher than a 5.5/10. Why, well i feel it's obvious. I watch and scrutinize every Bok game and i can't remember a single occasion where he has shown any sign of creativity or managed to put the opposition under pressure with his play. On the odd rare occasion he will kick the ball to a winger who may be in space, but this is about as attacking as i have seen him be. It seems he is capable of only two things 1) Kick 2) Just pass it on ASAP without any perceived perception of what is happening in the game around him. Is it just me who has noticed this?


So the question i have to ask is, why or earth do we pick him so consistently? After all, we have other kickers in the country who are able to do that job just perfectly whilst also posing somewhat of an attacking threat. Marnitz Boshoff being one of them and oh my god even Dean Elgar. Hell Frans Steyn has so many line breaks and set up tries for the Sharks this season that it baffles me why is not our first choice flyhalf(his knee problem maybe). The point being that we have so many other choices that would slot in beautifully with our back line which is looking deadlier all the time.


So i have given my opinion, it is just an opinion and i am asking that somebody out there with a rugby brain please help me figure this out. Really please help me see the Morne Steyn light because i'm so in the dark here that i dunno if my eyes are open or closed.


Now Ruan Pienaar. 


So we already have a flyhalf who really just wants to kick because that's all he's got and he has to show it off as much as possible to remain in the team. But we also seem to be constantly picking probably the worst scrumhalf available for selection. Really, Du Preez, Hougard, Piet van Zyl, Vermaak and even Sean Macloed deserve the nod ahead of him. Anyone notice again how on Saturday the moment Du Preez came on the the back line was transformed almost instantly. This box kicking business of Ruan's. Between him and Morne Steyn i am surprised our back line ever get the ball. Not only that but his general awareness and freakish slow releasing of the ball is astounding to me. If any of you noticed, maybe not, at the weekends game, where his passes were going? If you can watch a replay take a look at the detail in it. The ball is always a bit high, a bit behind or just plainly misdirected...and this after he has taken three steps to steady himself for the pass. Is this not criminal? 


Again can somebody please shed some light for me because maybe, very possible, there is something i am missing here. It would be great if somebody could unlock this seemingly unfathomable weirdness in our selection policy for me.


Anyhow all of this seems to me to mean one thing. We still wanna kick and chase. I swear the All Black backs must smile in their hearts every time we up and under/box kick from our 10 meter line. Oh thanks for the ball lads...we'll just run at you again and again and again. I remember a game from two years back where the Boks where trailing by 10 points with about 6 minutes to go and we were just kicking the ball to the ABs constantly. The Kiwi commentator actually said "What are the Springboks doing? Why do they insist on kicking the ball away constantly when they know they can't get points if they don't have the ball in hand?" To me, that sums it up perfectly.


My opinion is that we seem to think we manage to be no.2 in the world because of this kicking game of ours. Unfortunately i think that our insistence on kicking is holding us back from being number one consistenly . There is no way that anyone can say we cannot match NZ, Oz or England in terms of running talent in South Africa. As far as i can tell we have an embarrassment of riches in that department.


Again. Please shed some light on this one for me. It would really be great.


PS excuse the typos but i can't be arsed to edit. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Jun 2014, 14:40
#2
09 Jun 2014, 14:40#2
 Warm welcome to The Board Plum. You are expressing exactly what I was saying.
Pienaar in his younger days made some of the most brilliant breaks I have seen from a scrummie. Today he poses no threat at all to the oppostion. He never takes on the opposition. Never breaks etc. He likes to kick the ball and when playing with Morne we then have two guys liking to kick. That said its how much they kick and how effective it is. Fouries Du Preez is still mecurial. Then there is the very pacy Reinach and the brilliant young Faf de Klerk. The others you mention are also good attacking scrummies, Vermark, Sarel, Kockott etc. Hougaard takes to much time and to me doesnt flow in the scrummie position. Has improved this season.Flyhalves. Morne does ocassioanlly try and run the ball. He is not a bad flyhalf but should NEVER have Pienaar as his partener. However we must be looking for more.Frans - well I don't know. The guy still needs t o do more and he looks to have slowed up.The future looks to be Pollard, Lambie and Goosen. Marnizs also is a decent flyhalf.
To me when you have Pienaar, Morne and the slow Frans youahave limited your attacking ability.
Then add to that our current loose trio being on the slow side we also run a greater risk of turnover ball if sending the ball out wide.
Here the answer is to have a dominant tight five and bring in at least Burger (for now) in place of Alberts. You don't loose much in grunt and gain hugely in workrate and covering the paddock and sklls.You will however find different views on matters be sure of that!!!!! 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Jun 2014, 15:00
#3
09 Jun 2014, 15:00#3

Plum in a nutshell you are saying that Morne is useless, which is 100% spot on - how he ever won a single test for the Boks is beyond me.

 

As for Pienaar, he used to be handy but those days are long gone.....most of the Super 15 starting 9's are better - de Klerk, Groom, Hougaard and Reinach are all better as is v/Zyl on the Bulls bench.

 

Pienaar is past it much like Kirchner, Fourie, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Steenkamp, Jannie, Bakkies and Matfield are.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jun 2014, 15:11
#4
09 Jun 2014, 15:11#4
 Plum
Welcome to the site - hope you enjoy it here.
Your breakdown is correct - but I do not really rate Quade Cooper as a flyhalf - I think he is markedly inferior to Foley - but leave it at that.
My problem is that kicking should be objective-orientated and should in the main be aimed at putting the opposition recipient under pressure.   That means that -
*  all strategic kicks should be precise and not too long or generally aimless; while*  relieving kicks should reach a specific area gain - at least 30 meters if possible.  
Basically kicking should be used as a weapon - an alternative means aimed at putting the opposing teams under pressure.   You would notice that virtually all kicks of Carter are aimed at where there is a vacant area and players are not on the spot to receive the kicks.  Coopers kicks are normally either relieving kicks or strategic ones - very effective to allow for effective following up.
That is where I have a problem with Morne - his kicks are far too often not strategic and the play is easily countered by the opposition - either by kicking it back or by counter-attacking - which in turn put the Springboks under pressure.  The other problem I have with Morne's kicking is a tendency very marked last year and that is that at times he often does not find touch with penalty kicks in the Springboks half of the field.   I can recollect that happening at least 7 times in the RC and the EOYT.
Bearing in mind the above I would give Carter a mark of 9/10, Cooper 7/10 and Morne 5/10 for their kicking game.
Insofar as other aspects of the game - none of the three players are faultless.   I rate Carter very highly insofar as reading of the game and instinctive strategic playing are concerned    Carter in the pas coupled that to very effective personal attacking of the gain line - though it happens far less lately.   He is not as sound as he used to be in defense either.   On his present showing  I would rate him at 8/10 (compared to what he used to be).  Cooper is very unpredictable - something like Willie le Roux.  He tries all kind of tricks and some does not work out - making him look silly.    His defense at times are not up to standard.
Morne is another case at all - he is not effective in attacking play and has problems in reading the game and make critical mistakes - an example being the second Messam try in the Ellis Park Test.   Problem is he has difficulty in trying to decide whether to pass or kick balls - thus making him extremely predictable.  Opposition teams counter any plays by Morne easily.   I think that is what Stade Francais could not stomach - hence the fact that they play him from the bench.   Because of his predictability and other deficiencies he is not really a top flyhalf.  Morne also has defense deficiencies, his missed tackle ratio is normally around 20 to 25% - which is a rather series problem.  (The missed tackle ratio is you take all attempted tackles and indicate how many misses there were as a percentage of the total number of attempts). 
Rating the flyhalfs on the second category I would give Carter 8,5/10, Cooper 6.5/10 and Morne Steyn 4,5/10.       
That is my own rating and others may differ from me.  However, if one looks at Morne's performance on Saturday I find him to be hesitant and not very effective.  He for instance had to take 2 penalty relieving kick on Saturday and barely manage to make 20 meters gain with each of those.   Although there were some good backline moves on Saturday - Morne was not involved at all in those.       .        
 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
09 Jun 2014, 16:23
#5
09 Jun 2014, 16:23#5
 Dan carter is one of the all time great flyhalves so anybody would not fare well in comparison.However he does provide a model of what one hopes for in a flyhalf. Morne's tactical kicking, particularly at altitude is reasonably good. His goal kicking exceptional.

His defence is no worse than many flyhalves but his attacking play lags. Add in the strangely pedestrian Pienaar and it's not a happy situation taken as a whole. Add in the slow Frans. Frans though at least might bre ak the line occassionally and offload/ get off a decent pass.Morne is a competent international flyhalf but one wants more if there is more. I think in the future with Pollard. Lambie and Goosen we well could have more. Time will tell.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
09 Jun 2014, 16:37
#6
09 Jun 2014, 16:37#6
 I love this site already. 
So why is it then they keep picking the two players in question? 
Are we all missing something? Really i am trying but i just can't see it.
Does it go back to our need to play the kick and chase or..?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Jun 2014, 17:06
#7
09 Jun 2014, 17:06#7
 Plum
Meyer for years used the kicking game as the basic play of the Bulls backline and Morne fitted into that 100%.  Matfield in his book wrote that the idea was to gain territory by that means and fr the Bulls props to try and take the line trows of opposing teams.   It worked at the time  and the Bulls did well in the Super series.
When Matfeld took over his only choice at flyhalf was Morne Steyn.  Meyer was nearly in tears when Steyn in 2012 turned into a nightmare both in respect of goal kicks - but also in general play.   I believe Meyer wants that style of play to persist and that is an integral part of his game plan.
Morne was better at kicking at goal in 2013 - his general play was still seriously problematic.  However, I also think that Morne is on a downward slope in performances in any event - he is already past the prime performing age of most players.  
As long is Meyer is the coach - despite his lack of rugby over the past six months. Morne will always have the inside track for selection at flyhalf irrespecti ve of how poor his performances will be.  
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
09 Jun 2014, 18:53
#8
09 Jun 2014, 18:53#8
 Thanks CleverMike. 
It makes sense that Meyer would want to stick to something that has worked. The operative word being "has". 
Just seems a rather negative style really. Depending on disruption of the oppositions set piece as an attack.
Still it's not really the kicking for touch that bothers me. More so the aimless kicking up field down the throats of the opposition and then letting them run at you which is worrisome. The Boks seem to do that way too much and with Morne and Pienarr it seems we will be having at least a few more years of that business going on. 
Such a shame really.
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