Morne Steyn wins the match

No doubt about it....a final try was just icing. His line kicks were magnificent as was his goal kicking up until the last kick. Mature flyhalf play.

Cant say that for the centres though. Serfontein tried hard, but gave Horne too much space. Engelbrecht was burned at the start by Cooper, burned for a Tahs try and generally inept. No test player this.

How fast is Basson catching the break away....pity he isn't a bit more physical.

The Bools were totally outscrummed with Werner Kruger being killed by Robinson. But in the lineouts Juandre Kruger was magnificent. He was also all over the park in general play. Flip also had a decent game. Botha was splendid. I thought Chili and Spies were pretty good.

Hougaard did what he does best ...sniping against a tired defence.

Oh what nonsense, the Bulls centres were far more visible than the Tahs pair. Never saw Horne or Ashley Cooper all game. Serfontein was strong and JJ had some good moments with ball in hand. That JJ miss on Hooper was down to a good angle run, which had him off balance, for the rest he and Jan were solid in defence.

The Bulls centres were superior to their opponents. Morne had a great game as did Vermaak and Hougaard. In the forwards Chiliboy, Flip, Juandre Kruger, Arno Botha and Soies were good. The props were poor in the scrums.

 Mostly correct Moz. Kruger played pretty well outside the scrum but hs scrumming was not good enough.

Flip was good and Arno Botha magnificent. Meyer please note.  Chilli boy is playing well. Basson also was good.

Morne showed again he is the number 1 flyhalf and ou snapster and Mike have disappeared under a mountain of EGG. Hahahahahahaha

I wouldnt be to hard on the young centers.Serfontein was good in any case. JJ did miss one badly but was okay other than that. Spies was alo reasoanble but no great here. 

Juandre was very good. Is Du Toit ready to take over?  Shoulsd Steph play off the bench initally for Boks?

Well Mike was warned that the bulle would win. I hope he took the advice re his fantasy rugby.

Who is the better of the two Potgieter flanks? 

Folatau is dangerous but does he shun the physical side?

Wrong Dave....the Tahs centres were far better. JJ was a defensive liability....I can see why Meyer sent him home.....he can't tackle.

Hasbeen JJ missed A Cooper badly in open field at the start....and his tackle miss gave away a try. Serfontein was better, but Horne made 5 metres after contact too often. Serfontein's right foot step is now known by opponents.

As for Juandre Kruger how do you know he isn't scrumming? Weener  Kruger and Greyling, players Dave has pumped in the past, can't scrum. On today's evidence I would pick Kruger ahead of du Toit to start...Meyer will as well.

 Moz that is the biggest load of nonsense I have read in ages. I never saw Horne or Ashely Cooper all game. How on earth could they possibly be better than the Bulls. That makes no sense at all. Name one thing Horne or Ashley Cooper did that was noteworthy.

So JJ missed Hooper and now he cant tackle. JJ will be in the next Bok training camp, mark my word. He and Serfontein were good again and while I am not a stats man, I bet the Bulls pairs stats will be better than the Tahs pair who did absolutely nothing all game. I dont recall their names being mentioned at all.

 Greylingg was not being pushed around. Kruger had trouble with the awkward Robinson. 

We have different definitions of what good defence is. For the record JJ missing a simple tackle for a try is bad defence in my book. And it confirms the previous knock on this player, that he can't defend. I was okay with Serfontein, although he still has a lot to learn.

Look Dave I know JJ is fast big and can step.......he reminds me a bit of Andre Snyman on the run. But the defence. Eina. He'd do better on the wing, I think.

Hasbeen I seriously hope this is not the start of a Greyling thing, you do have a proclivity for big fatties.

It was not a simple tackle, Hooper ran a good angle, JJ was off balance and went high as he was not in a position to hit him low. His defence all S15 and for the rest of the game was good and he was more influential with ball in hand than Ashley Cooper. Serfontein completely outplayed Horne, who did not feature at all.

Jean missed a simple tackle yesterday, that does not mean his defence is bad......same can be said of Habana yesterday.

Jandre Kruger had a better game than Steph du Toit today but Steph has been far better than him all season. Kruger fails to make an impression at test level. Steph du Toit, being the kind of player he is, will make an impression at test level. I would never select Kruger for a test again. Steph du Toit is far better.

The Bulls scrum was far better with Mellett and Kirsten as props. Ludeke loves Greyling and Kruger sadly. Kirtsen is injured though and I suspect Mellett is as well as they had v/Wyk on the bench

You never saw Horne? Seriously?

morne is easily the form flythalf for SA at the moment, theres no doubt in my mind that meyer will select him as the incumbent flyhalf, and despite anyones feelings about morne in the past, there cant be any doubt that morne deserves first crack, i mean the next best flyhalf is lambie and hes been ordinary/boring all year. spXV dependable, but totally devoid of the spark which he once had and made me rate him so highly.

i thought the bulls midfiled were outstanding on attack, and both can improve on their defence, but nothing that isnt easily fixable with one good session of hardout drills.
i really rate this bulls midfield and both could play at Bok level too, but i would prefer jj on the wing.

waratahs played well, they really had the tables turned on the bulls who could have been blown out fo the game if not for the magnificent boot of morne.
the scoreline flattered the reality of the game IMO, i think the waratahs just ran out of gas, prob a little jet lagged, cos after the 60min, they went from 100ks an hour to1k an hour, part and parcel of the game though.

folau is prob the most improved player in the comp, hes gone from day 1 the worst play in any tier1 comp, to a very goos spXV level player.
waratahs are also the most improved team from 2012, they should hold their heads up high and i reckon they will butcher the kings big time next, though the kings are proving to be quite a thorn to the aussie franchises.

Exactly Sas, they were good on attack and why on earth for that reason would you want JJ on the wing......that makes no sense at all. Particularly since we dont have a standout Bok 13 at the moment. 

There has been nothing wrong with Serfonteins or JJ's defence all season. Hell centres are going to miss the odd tackle, its rugby.

I'd like to see Folau run it more, he is a big unit with plenty of skill. He tends to just pass it when he gets the ball. Feeling his way in maybe?

Moz, no, I saw nothing from Horne all game, he was a complete passenger, more so than Ashley Cooper.

Thread should read incompetent argentine ref wins match for bulls.... Seriously way too many mistakes that favoured home side... But as predicted weak channel for tahs was the 9 10. Clear as day for me. As for centres saffex I'm not sure what game u were watching....? Bulls centres ineffectual... In fact tahs backs completely outplayed bulls and their scrum.... Line outs, missed kicks and ref cost tahs the game. Bulls very lucky to get this one... Btw did u see folau...? Game 8 in rugby.... SBW played two seasons in France before even playing at this level.... Folau if he sticks with rugby will be the best convert ever to play the game.....

Red you are living in a dream world. The Bulls were always in control of that game. I said the Bulls centres were better than the Tahs pair and that is a fact. Horne and Ashley Cooper, two tests players, did stuff all, all game.

There was only one side that was going to win that game and it was not the Tahs, not even close.

Folau needs to back himself more with ball in hand - he looks hesitant and tends to just pass it. He should run it more.

Agree Horne and AAC completely overrated in attack... Unfortunately idiot deans still thinks AAC is playing like he did 5 seasons back when he was effectual. Folau still learning the game and I think u would find he is pulling up short in the impact to allow support players to get to breakdown I've no doubt he could gain more meters but is still bit unsure... The fact of it is that sbw was given massive accolades in rugby and somewhat deserved them.... But folau has played way less rugby and already showing more talent IMO. It's a shame tahs stick with McKinnon and foley at 9 / 10 though as these guys are club level players at best.... Maybe tahs centres would be better if better delivery from these key players. 

Red, they offered nothing on attack today, but AC has had some really good games there this year. He is your best bet at 13 for Oz. I have never rated Horne, he has no attacking clout......another Meyer Bosman.

Folau certainly looks a prospect, but he will have to go some to make more of an impression than SBW. SBW last year was awesome for the Kiwi's in such an influential position.

First move of the game Ashley Cooper left JJ for dead. Complete nonsense that the Bools centres were better.

No he did not, AC went nowhere and that was the last time his name was probably mentioned all game. The only other thing I recall AC doing was knocking a ball on. As for Horne, he did not do a single noteworthy thing.

Serfontein was far better than Horne, in fact it was a one sided affair. JJ was better than AC with ball in hand.

The Bulls centres were better than the Tahs centres - it was not even close

The fact that the move went nowhere doesn't change the fact that he beat JJ with ease. Dave you can have all the opinions you want, they cant change the facts.

Wrong Moz, I have just checked that first tackle/miss by JJ on Ashley Cooper. The Bulls centres are checked by a decoy runner on the inside, both Serfontein and JJ initially hesitate and then realign. JJ slightly rushes it but takes Ashley Coopers ankle causing him to stumble and fall to his knees with the cover defence taking him out. JJ got enough of Ashley Cooper to stop any real threat.

How far did he get past the tackle 10 metres ....15 metres?  JJ missed him. If that was an Adi Jacobs result he would have been dumped on!

Then there's this:

"During this period Rob Horne had a scything break"....from Planet Rugby. How the hell did you miss a "scything break" Dave?

And there's this:

and this:

So we see Horne was marginally more productive than Serfontein and Engelbrecht about the same in offence as AC. But here's the difference AC makes all his 10 tackles.....JJ 60% of his 10 tackles. And if AC never missed a tackle none of those players JJ beat were his direct opponent. But his direct opponent beat him.

Then we need to factor in the quality of ball. The Bulls pack dominated all but the scrums. So Serfontein and JJ got the ball with metres of space to wind up....Horne and AC got the ball with much less room.

Let me repeat my conclusion. Serfontein is a fine prospect, but he will need more than an Ettienne Botha step off the right foot. I think he is coachable, but he needs to diversify his game.

JJ is a good runner.....probably no better than other young wings like Lindeque and van Heerden....but effective. His defence, however, remains a major concern if he is to play centre. He doesn't bring the line up properly and his tackling is suspect. 

Moz he landed on his knees, there were no metres involved, he stumbled back up and got flattend by Morne.

Yes I saw Horne run straight past Morne, I had forgotten about that as Horne never did another thing all game. He must have gained 40 m with that run. There was no skill involved, someone put him into space.

The Bulls centres were better than the Tahs and there is no doubt about that

Dream on....speaking of which, isn't it time you hit the hay, no pun intended?

@saffex,
"Exactly Sas, they were good on attack and why on earth for that reason would you want JJ on the wing......that makes no sense at all. Particularly since we dont have a standout Bok 13 at the moment. "

like u im a big fan of englebrechtt and IMO the bulls midfiled combo is going to be one of the best in the world, but theyre not their yet.
i really like the looks of jan serfontein, and IMO it would be a waste to put him in with the u20 Boks team, they should throw him in the Boks team right now, let him get tested against itlay, samo and scotland, and this will go a long way into helping himdevlop into a possible contender for the IRC.
i dont think it would be smart to play serfontein against the wallabies or All Blacks, if the only games he plays at that level are against the pumas, give him as much time as possible to frow into it.

jj like serfontein is developing nicely in the No13 for the bulls, but IMO his 13 game isnt ready for test level honours. i do think that he should be on the wing though, his size and speed will be a huge asset for the Boks, but he also has a mean boot which goes unnoticed and that will help in those times when hes in a position where hes forced to clear.

Boks do have a shortage of some 13s, but they do have solid options. de jong (i know many dont agree, but i wouldnt mind having him in my team), ebherson, JDV and frans steyn, all foru have plenty to contribute to the Boks, but my pick of that lot would prob be frans steyn, his style would be a nice balance with serfonteins style, similar to what serfontein and englebrechtt have now, but steyn will have experience to help back his plays and keep serfontein settled.

poies comments on another thread about frans steyn were spot on, IMO hes no where near as bad as some have made him out to be, but he hasnt been anywhere near as good either. hes been adequate whioch for someone of his caliber is not a good thing.
poies comparisons between weepu in 2012 and frans steyn now also hit the mark, but thats a good thing for frans, cos weepu started to improve with every game he played for the All Blacks and he came back in 2013 to be one of spXVs form halfback.

 Still rekin AAC is deans political choice at 13 he's nothing compared to what he was in attack and far too often takes on the line when he has support players outside him. His defence is unquestionable though. I think Israel could slip into 13 or 15 or wing... But thinks he's already done enough to prove he's worthy of wallaby contention. Re boks centres.... Cheetahs ebosen or whatever his name is clearly best 12 and de villers no brainer for 13. Re ABs centres.... Now that is an interesting question have to be Conrad 13.... And nonu.. He seems to be cancerous wherever he goes.... I hope they do stick with him but lots of slick blues backs to choose from not to mention kahui can he play 12?

Mozart

I did not want to respond to this discussion  - because I do not want to get involved in another brawl  with Saffex.  However, on second thoughts I want to state clearly that I like what I see of him more and more.  He did not only turn around his poor kicking form of last year - but there also was a substantial change in his playing style in evdence this year,  That style change came through more clearly  in the try scored against the Western Force earlier in the season, as well as the one yesterday against the Waratahs.   That was to my mind a major improvement in his play and he cut out most of his previous negatives.   Maybe the fact that he did change was due to the fact that he was left out of the Springbok team last year- that i believe showed him that there were serious deficienies in his game.  Good for him that he managed to get over that in a positiv manner.

As to the center issue - I am more than happy about the performance of Serfontein yesterday.   Although he did not make major line breaks like the previous week - his ball handling was excllent and he did very well in defence.   No problem with him and I still think he may be our best option at 12 - even this year.  I would on present form play him at 12 and De Villiers at 13.  

However, I was not overly impressed about Engelbrecht.   There is something seriously amiss about his defence and this defciency was noticeable throught the series thus far,   Thus far this season he made 58 tackles and missed 12.   A third of the missed tackles came in the game yesterday - where he had to contend with a strong opposing center.   I think Engelbrecht has a tendency to advance too early and break the defensive line.  Problem is that in some cases the opponents sidestep him and he cannot even attempt a tackle.  If my memory fits me cirrectly - it happened in both the Blues and Crusaders games.   He is a good player with deficiencies and would probably not make the grade at center - maybe a wing perhaps.

 As the Mozart uncle was saying,   No doubt about it....a final try was just icing. His line kicks were magnificent as was his goal kicking up until the last kick. Mature flyhalf play.

Have to agree, he took charge, he did what he had to do to keep the Tahs at bay and then put the cherry ontop.  There are a few people who do not have the ability or intelligence or rugby comprehension to be objective as opposed to subjective and then target a player commenting with the bias covering their eys.

Nei man, you need to look at the play and not the man, dammit.  Currently there is no other flyhalf better than Steyn in SA.  Please show me one of the SA flyhalfs that did what he did on Saturday.  Lambie is probably the next best.  Goosen, well he has proven to be an injury looking for a place to happen.  And my broer Alton, ai all can do is laugh.  He's too short and then he has a fight with the lawnmower every time he needs a haircut.  Because of that he has to use a whole pot of Brill Cream to stick his hair down, nei man!

Ag ou Kaleed jy weet mos, die "Brill Cream" maak ou Jantjies glad soos seep. I agree Morne is playing some of his best rugby...I like the adjustment he made. But yesterday for the first time this year, Lambie did well ball in hand. I think he will improve from here. You are looking at our two flyhalves for the year...who starts is anybody's guess.

Hehehehe, Ja my Kroon.  Lambie is on the right track he just needs to take more charge of the game, glimpses of it came through yesterday.  Agree those are the two.  I would play Morne on the softer, rain fields and Lambie where running is the optimum game plan.

The Bokke need a three-prong approach.  Some clear tight play from the st pieces, some kicking into the corners to turn the opposition around and give us some better field position and then we need to have a running plan - but the centers must run straight and offload.  I see too many centers drifting or running slap-bang-doef into the defender - daais dom!

Wrong Sas, JJ's development needs to be at centre, we wont be doing him any favours playing him on the wing. He is by far our best 13 at the moment and the assertion that his defence is not good is rubbish. If anyone had watched every S15 game he had played this season, one would have to conclude his defence has improved somewhat from last year.

There is absolutely no issue with his tackling technique, its more about coming up to speed with the demands of defensive alignments at 13. This is where a partnership comes into play. Centres work as a combination, they need to grow and trust one another. Serfontein and JJ are at an infancy at this stage, but the prospects are there for all to see.

We CANNOT have de Jongh or Ebersohn at 13, these guys are good rugby players but they do not have the physical attributes to play test rugby at 13. 

We certainly cannot have Frans or Jean at 13, they are too slow. JJ stands out as the real candidate for the 13 spot alongside his provincial partner Serfontein. As you say this partnership has the potential to be the best in the business. Both young, physical, fast but best of all have the skill set to beat the opposition.

As far as the Bok centre pair is concerned, its an easy call for me. Serfontein and JJ should walk it. We cannot possible think we are going to breach international defences with a solid but past it Jean at 12 and a physically inept de Jongh at 13. My 3 Bok centres would be Frans, Serfontein and JJ

Saffwx

I agree with you about Serfontein - but just one question.  How many times did Steyn breach international backline defences - or for that matter any backline defences since he came back from France - if that in your own words is a requirement?

Um DomMike did he not smash players out of the way in his match on Sat, is that not breaching a defence you ignorant twit?

Let me guess, we saw Jean and de Jongh breaching defences for the Boks last year huh????

Saffex

Definitely not - if breaching of the line in your mind means a crashball three meters fiurther it effectually means nothing at all.  Breaching of the line means that the attacking play continues and not comes to a dead stop three meters on.   Breaching of the line in fact means to my mind what Serfontein did in the game against the Reds or occurs quite frequently in the cases of other centers in Super 15 games I have watched

Well clearly you dont know what the hell you are talking about. Frans breached the line by beating the first man by bashing him out the way. Frans was operating in traffic, there was no space to beat the man with a step as he did in the match before.

After bashing the man out of the way, he took contact and set up a ruck.....its what you do in rugby, or you pass it if there is a player in a good position to pass it to.

Serfontein made those breaks in space. Are you not able to differentaite between play in traffic and play in space - wake the hell up man.....one would swear I was talking rugby with a 90 year old woman.

Sharksworld player rating:

12) Meyer Bosman. A poor game, despite some good things off the ball in the first few minutes. 4/10

13) Francois Steyn. Stood up as one of the few seniors in the back line and looked far sharper and more aware than he has for some time. His best performance of the season so far, by a comfortable distance. 6/10

I disgree with the take that this was his best game. His best games were in week 1 and 2.

Saffex

Calm down - I am saying that even when in space Steyn made sure he breaks to the inside to ensure that he ended up in traffic.  That he was constantly doing this year.  You cannot tell me that unlike other centers Steyn IS ALWAYS in traffic  - he is not and he normally takes the wrong options when he in fact is in space.

 Oh what rubbish

Not rubbish - how many more examples than I already quoted - is required before you realize what he is up to?