Moz my counter on your JJ nonsense

I had a good laugh on your take of the first half in the test against the AB's........as predicted your take was clothed in anti JJ prejudice........here is my counter and a true reflection of what exactly happened in that first half.......second half with JJ brilliant break to follow.......JJ had a brilliant game with ball in hand, it was even better second time round.......what a player this lad is.

 00.08 The ABs kick off left towards JJ, he mistimes his leap and the ABs recover the ball and launch their opening attacks.  ITS NOT THE JOB OF A 13 TO TAKE KICK-OFFS AND HAD ALBERSTS CHALLENGED MESSAM PROPERLY ON THE GROUND HE COULD HAVE EFFECTED A TURNOVER. JJ DOES NOT KNOCK IT ON, HE JUST DOES NOT TAKE THE KICK IN CONTACT, SO WHAT, HARDLY THE MEASURE OF A CENTRE.

1.02  JJ "tackles" Conrad Smith who stands in the tackle and struggles forward. Alberts steams up and flattens both of them. SMITH STANDS IN THE TACKLE AS HE TRIES TO STEP JJ, JJ DOES A GOOD JOB OF SNUFFING OUT THE STEP, SMITH DOES NOT STRUGGLE FORWARD AT ALL, GETS ONE STEP FORWARD AND JJ TAKES HIM BACWARDS, WITH ALBERTS CHARGING IN. IT’S A TACKLE BY JJ

1.18 The Boks are under a lot of pressure, the ball is passed to JJ behind the line, who kicks and fails to find touch. The ABs surge up the right side with Read just failing to regather near the Bok line. JJ IS HARDLY RENOWNED AS A KICKER AND IN FACT HIS KICK IS NOT BAD AT ALL IT NEARLY MAKES TOUCH, BUT WE ARE NOT HERE TO JUDGE JJ’S KICKING ABILITY. THE ONLY REASON THE AB’S GET NEAR THE BOK LINE IS THROUGH A KICK FROM READ

2.52 JJ gets the ball from a classy Willie pass, accelerates nicely up the touch line , but passes behind Jean's head, slowing his progress. THE PASS WAS HIGH BUT DOES NOT SLOW JEAN DOWN AT ALL, JJ DOES A GREAT JOB OF DRAWING SAVEA AND PUTTING JEAN INTO SPACE, JEAN SLIPS , COULD HAVE LEAD TO TRY THANKS TO JJ – THAT’S 1

5.00 PATHETIC KICK BY MORNE INTO DEADBALL AREA, WASTE OF GOOD BALL

6.20 JJ commits two defenders as Savea naively moves to help the man inside, a nice pass by JJ puts Willie away.  NOTHING NAÏVE FROM SAVEA, WITH JJ RUNNING TOWARDS HIM AND FIRST ATTACKING HIS INSIDE SHOULDER, THEN HIS OUTSIDE, HE CAUSES SAVEA TO CHECK HIS DEFENCE OUT WIDE AS JJ WAS GETTING AWAY FROM READ COVERING. PERFECT PASS TO WILLIE WHO CHIPS AHEAD AND NEARLY SCORES. COULD HAVE LEAD TO TRY THANKS TO JJ – THAT’S 2

10.49 JJ AND VERMEULEN TACKLE WHITELOCK

11.05 SMITH HANDS MORNE OFF AND SCORES – RC GONE

11..30 JJ takes pass and is stopped after 2 metres THIS WAS AT 13.23, JJ RUNS A GREAT LINE TAKES  A FLAT PASS FROM MORNE, RUNS STRAIGHT THROUGH CONRAD SMITH, WHICH YOU CONVENIENTLY FAILED TO INCLUDE IN YOUR SCOPE!!!!!, GETS TACKLED BY NONU AND SETS UP NEXT PHASE. GOOD LINE AND BURST THROUGH THE TACKLE BY SMITH.

13.55 Attempts to beat the defence on the outside, doesn't, and is taken into touch. NZ ball. HA,HA, HE TAKES A HIGH PASS OFF WILLIE WELL AND HAS NOWHERE TO GO ON THE TOUCHLINE, YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE HE FAILED HERE? COMMENTATOR SAYS WELL TAKEN BY JJ AS BALL WAS FIRED HEAD HIGH AT HIM BY LE ROUX

24.55 JJ COVERS WELL TO TAKE SAVEA DOWN

25.25 NONU RUNS THROUGH MORNE AND AB’S SCORE SOON AFTER – RC GONE

34.40 Overruns Morne's pass 10 metres out on a set move, after the Boks had destroyed the AB scrum. Some claim the pass was behind him....it was on his hip. And it was absolutely flat. A simple case of getting ahead of the passer and dropping the ball. . The ABs quickly relieve a great try scoring chance. WHAT NONSENSE, CHECKED THIS A FEW TIMES, THE PASS IS BEHIND JJ, NOWHERE NEAR THE HIPS, HE EXTENDS HIS ARMS BACKWARDS AT FULL FLIGHT TO TRY TAKE THE PASS. NOTHING SIMPLE ABOUT IT AT ALL. GOOD LINE RUN BY JJ AGAIN AND HAD THE PASS BEEN ACCURATE, JJ MIGHT HAVE GOT THROUGH AS HE LOOKS TO HAVE GOT THE BETTER OF SMITH IN CONTACT, DRAGGING SMITH EVEN THOUGH HE HAD GIVEN UP THE FIGHT GIVEN THE BALL WAS SPILT.

40.00 Morne clears outstandingly from behind the Bok line, and Louw alertly snaps up the errant NZ throw. Morne passes at his 22 instead of kicking out at half time. JJ performs an old fashioned scissors with jean. The change of direction takes him past Cruden. Then faced with a tandem of Read and Nonu, he accelerates trying to take the non existent gap between them. Nonu takes him down and Read strips the ball on the ground, which JJ places rapidly. There is no attempt to protect the ballor stand in the tackle. Massive turnover NZ. YEP MORNE SHOULD HAVE KICKED BUT THE BOKS OBVIOUSLY WANTED TO ATTACK, JJ IN ORDER TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING, RUNS THE SCISSOR WITH JEAN, TAKES THE PASS AT PACE, STEPS CRUDEN, ITS NOT A CASE OF JUST GOING PAST HIM, HE STEPS HIM BEAUTIFULLY. HE THEN DOES TAKE THE GAP BETWEEN NONU AND READ AND THROUGH SHEER PACE GETS PAST NONU, BUT NONU MANAGES TO CATCH JJ’S LEG WHILE FLYING PAST HIM AND JJ GOES DOWN WITH NO-ONE ON HIM, READ DIVES ON HIM, JJ PLACES THE BALL WELL, HE COULD NOT PROTECT IT ON THE GROUND AS THAT WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A PENALTY. READ GETS UP TO CONTEST THE BALL AT THE EXACT TIME KOLISI HITS READ IN AN ATTEMPT TO CLEAR HIM OUT, THE BALL IS FLUNG BACK A GOOD 10M, THANKS EITHER TO A READ HAND OR KOLISI BOOT. JJ BEAT 2 DEFENDERS ON THAT RUN, IT WAS YET ANOTHER BIT OF CREATIVE PLAY FROM JJ .

40.33 JJ has a chance to make amends with Nonu directly in front of him. Nonu steps him  with ease and is brought down by Serfontein. But  the NZ move has gained momentum. Seconds later they score a crucial try. JJ IS COVERING WIDE NONU STEPS JJ AND DU PREEZ BUT JJ HAULS HIM IN AFTER SERFONTEIN GOES LOW, WITH JJ BASHING HIM DOWN. FUNNY HOW YOU FAIL TO MENTION NONU STEPPING DU PREEZ. IT WAS A GOOD DOUBLE STEP BY NONU. TRY IS SCORED THANKS TO MISSES BY BEAST AND KIRSCHNER OUT WIDE. IT HAD STUFF ALL TO DO WITH JJ AND THAT’S A FACT.

 Guys, fact remains, with guys like Morne, Zane, JJ, Basson and Kruger playing the way they are, we are going to lose more times the AB's than we are going to win.

JJ is learning every game (hopefully, I mean thats what you'd expect from a player) but he is by no means a polished 13 yet and he is not the best 13 in SA. He has massive problems on defence. Not even talking about defensive lines or patterns, I am talking technically. He is not a strong enough tackle to be the best 13 in SA. The boy has pace to burn but he lacks in the creativity department. He is a solidly built lad but shit scared to go low in the tackle.

Ebersohn is a better centre right now. De Jongh is better right now. I still dont know why Serfontein was not given a run at 13 in this Championship? He clearly is not a wing but we still don't know how he fares in the centres.

I dont get involved in any of this talk about the Barrett try anymore because I thought that picture I posted would have put it to bed. It is a simple illustration of JJ's tackling ability. Perfectly positioned to make a good, low hit and he buggered it up completely by chooseing to go high on one of the fastest men in the game. In a perfect world, every player would make head on tackles but what seperates good players from average ones is their ability to step and avoid tackles whilst trying to beat their man just like Drew Mitchel was the master at when he first broke on to the scene. He was not big but he was harder to tackle than an oke 20kg's up on him! As a 13, you need to be able to adjust and scramble. Ask Conrad, he will wrote the book!

These players are not good. They are great. They are the best in their countries and I would go as far as to say we have school boys who show more heart and better technique on defence than JJ has. He stands straight up in the tackle and he has done this time and time again. He knows no other way YET and this is going to continuosly cause SA big headaches against the better teams.

You might get away with it more often than not against the lesser teams like Scotland, Italy and those guys but its not their scalp we treasure most. Its the AB's, English, French and those guys!

 Stop the clip at exactly 41.08 on the video timer.....you will see JJ miles ahead of the passer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qktn-g6P4qk

The try line is handy in the background, draw an imaginary line from Steyn parallel to the tryline and observe how far JJ is  ahead of the passer as he receives the ball.

 OK Saffex, I am not going to lower myself into name calling and insulting you again but why is it that you take what my opinion is on JJ so personally? You dont know him personally. He is not close to you. You are not him!

I dont need to see the incident from the front, behind, helicopter or mole in the ground. I should you visual proof of JJ in perfect position to tackle. How much closer does he wana get to Barrett for .... sakes? Routine centre tackles that he misses way too much.

I dont care about stats. All I see is him missing tackles that cost us tries because of poor technique. He never wants to go low!

Seems you like these blokes that cant tackle...Before you call me stupid, look at some of the okes you back..JJ and Jantjies being 2 of them. Both should not be in Bok jumpers right now and the latter should never have been or ever be close!!

Dont take it personally. We are talking about a 3rd person here that has no bearing on our lives in a personal way. He simply needs to learn to tackle or move on before he costs us more games!

Boklogic your ignorance really irritates me and make a mockery of the fact that you claim to play the game, for if you did your comments would not be as ill informed as they are.

If you played the game you would know that the inside defender has the responsibility of tackling the man with ball in hand and that if the outside defender is then expected to make the tackle because the inside defender missed his man, then chances are the outside defender will not be able to get into position to make an effective tackle.......its rugby basics which you don't seem able to comprehend at all.......then you lie about him being a poor defender.......how can that be given the stats I quoted above........it just does not add up.......2 missed tackles in 4 tests does NOT equate to a poor defender.

But what really pissed me off is you declaring that JJ is too scared to go low......what an insult to a test 13. Your ignorance just irritates me - just one of those things......its the same ignorance Mike has.

At least when I debate rugby with a guy like Moz, he does not throw in pathetic comments like JJ is too scared to tackle........that is just beyond debate.......its like debating with a 5 year old  

 Well what is it then Saffex? What is continuously preventing JJ going low. There are many pics online of JJ "tackling" and every one is not a text book tackle. They are all identical in the fact that he stands striaght up in contact. What is preventing him going low?

I understand the wrapping the ball up technique but he is not effecting this either. He is missing crucial tackles. I dont need stats to tell me that. He often "effects" tackles that are regulation and as I said, his technique can work most of the time or he has help from team mates but as soon as a tackle becomes a little complex like a man is stepping away from him or on his inside shoulder, he is missing them more often than not. It only happens a few times a game where your defence is really tested 1 on 1 and he is failing far too often.

Usually guys man up on defence pretty well and its about chipping away until a hole opens up. Often, when the best teams in the world meet, you will turn over the ball or make a mistake which is the reason tries are not easy to come by and we dont see tries from every possession. You get those few opportunities in a game where the defence is reeling or scrambling and JJ is no good at that. We saw it against Argentina and we waved good bye to the RC trophy because of it.

Only difference is, against Barrett, he was in perfect position to take his legs!

In a perfect world, the attacker is always the job of the inside defender but this is not a perfect world and a guy with Beauden Barrett's pace is always going to beat a defender of Morne Steyn's pace around the outside so can JJ trust that tackle to be made when we are scrambling? Its about being wise to the situation you in and that comes with experience. Conrad can tell you that too so that is why I say dont give up on JJ but the problem is, he is missing the tackles. He has no problems scrambling into position but he is technically piss poor in the tackle. Often needing help from team mates. He slows guys up with his technique but not chop them down. If everytime an inside defender missed a tackle and your theory that the outside man can never get to him, we would see basket ball scores! 95-89 type shit!

Your stats quoted show simple tackles where guys have taken the ball up to set up the next phase. Stats dont tell a true story. My picture did!!

Saffex, the game is no longer played with a brown, heavy leather ball that was a piece of soap in the wet where backs stood 2metres apart and every backline move went through the hands with no forwards in the line and defences made sure they numbered up. Easy stuff. Guys are running dummy lines, forwards are throwing 20metre passes, attacks are forming various different pods in different channels to confuse defences and it seems we are seeing very quickly that JJ is being exposed as a poor defender on the international stage.

Saffex

You cannot win an argument on Engelbrecht with Mozart.   He has a fixation with De Jongh and wants him in the team come hell or high water - so Engelbrecht must be denigrated as far as humanly possible.  According to Mozart Engelbrecht will always be wrong in whatever he does - so why not accept that you are arguing with a fixed mind, which cannot be changed.

Morne is good - whether he fouls or or not.  Mozart's  first response was that Morne had an excellent test.   When it was pointed out that Morne failed in defence, did not know when to kick and when to pass (because the robotic Morne was told by Meyer to play flatter in the pocket and pass balls  more often) - hence the Messam try - and failed with two kicks at goal when under pressure - Mozart put up a spirited defence of Morne by attacking Lambie on grounds that is really contradicted by  statistics..

So accept that you are right and that the Morsoscope of Mozart was  his normal farce in which he endeavoured to denigrate Engebrecht.   I am not saying Engelbrecht is faultless - I am saying that he had a good game - which Mozart will never admit.   Just like he will never admit that some of his favourite players have had bad games.

Saffex

You cannot win an argument on Engelbrecht with Mozart.   He has a fixation with De Jongh and wants him in the team come hell or high water - so Engelbrecht must be denigrated as far as humanly possible.  According to Mozart Engelbrecht will always be wrong in whatever he does - so why not accept that you are arguing with a fixed mind, which cannot be changed.

Morne is good - whether he fouls or or not.  Mozart's  first response was that Morne had an excellent test.   When it was pointed out that Morne failed in defence, did not know when to kick and when to pass (because the robotic Morne was told by Meyer to play flatter in the pocket and pass balls  more often) - hence the Messam try - and failed with two kicks at goal when under pressure - Mozart put up a spirited defence of Morne by attacking Lambie on grounds that is really contradicted by  statistics..

So accept that you are right and that the Morsoscope of Mozart was  his normal farce in which he endeavoured to denigrate Engebrecht.   I am not saying Engelbrecht is faultless - I am saying that he had a good game - which Mozart will never admit.   Just like he will never admit that some of his favourite players have had bad games.

 Saffex, I realise you have internet which is why I told you all to google "JJ Engelbrecht tackles" and click on images. I also realise you have objective vision and will see what you want to see. I mean after all, you do see Jantjies as a decent rugby player.

You will see tackles from JJ on the following and all chest high, standing up in the tackle.

Kieran Read

De Allende (Bulls vs WP)

Savea

Nonu

Piutau x 3

Now I looked at all the Piutau tackles and they look like 3 different tackles as each time there is different supporting Springboks in the shot. Tackles all look remarkably similar with him clutching at Piutau's collar. That makes 7 tackles that made the net with 100's that didnt. You theory of 2 is blown out the water.

You think I hate the man. I dont. I dont know him personally. I just know that I want the Boks to win against the best in the world and JJ is doing a damn fine job of getting in the way of this.

Also Saffex, when he he ever created something out of nothing ala Marius Joubert at times and Fourie? Even Adi Jacobs was a much better creative player! He is as fast as lightning but the kid offers little else!

Just a pity he blew a try, got turned for another try  and missed the tackle that lost the RC and confirmed that the next week by botching a try defence from 40 metres out against a hooker! 

Dave your loyalty to this Grey College product is touching , but way over the top. Joubert in his first effective season, 2002,  scored two marvellous tries against the Aussies. In 2005 he won the TN by running straight through Umaga. When your chappie has that kind of thing on his re sume, let's talk again.

 I never missed the last test, I saw everything. I saw JJ set up two of our tries whilst scoring 1. I saw him smash Barrett back to keep us in the game. I saw JJ run rings around Conrad Smith and beat every defender he came up against. Oh, what it must be like to be in your head Dave and see things through your eyes!

I saw exactly what the game was. No contribution by JJ on attack except over running passes and turning ball over and an even less impact on defence. In fact, a negative impact on defence. A test the young man needs to put behind him but I am sure it will happen time and time again until he learns to tackle!

Stats expose me? Chavanga scored 6 tries in 1 game. JP Pietersen or Habana did not do that. Is Chavanga a better player than them both? Lets not take into account the opposition on the day or the amount of rugby the guys were playing. Lets just look at numbers..Please Dave, spare me your stats..They mean fuck all! I can see JJ for what he is with my eyes! I suggest you start actually watching too! JJ is not a great centre right now, he belongs on the wing in Currie Cup until he sorts his shit out. Centres need flair, vision and skill. JJ is lacking in most depts. Look at his beautifully forward pass near the end of the game. How can you get it that wrong? Skill set!

Mozart

All this debate about Engelbrecht knocking on a ball with a try begging reminds me of another incident.  It happened at Murrayfield last year when a player got the ball in similar circumstances - and knocked it on.   That player was De Jongh - no discussion about him - according to you he had a solid game.  And dead silence about that incident.

Both Engelbrecht and De Jongh knocked on balls under similar circumstances - Engelbrecht is crucified - De Jongh is treated with the great silence.   What is the  difference?    Both players buggered up badly - so why the difference?

Then we have the harping on Engelbrecht defence - he missed 16% of all attempted tackles in Super 15 as against the miss ratio of 25% on the part of De Jongh.   Why go for Engelbrecht's miss tackle issue - when De Jongh put up a worse show by far during Super 15.   This debate started during Super 15 already - hence my reference to it.  Fact is Engelbrecht has some tackle deficiencies - De Jongh has major tackle deficiencies.    In the case of Engelbrecht - he is damned completely - in respect of De Jongh the silence is deafening.

In the case of Engelbreht his miss tackle on Bosch was inexcusable - on Barrett the same,  but in the latter case the main culprits were De Villiers and Morne Steyn.  Incidentally Morne's tackle technique is the same as that of Engelbrecht.   The technique of both are not acceptable - but Morne missed more tackles per game than Engelbrecht.   Morne in the CR missed 11 tackles - Engelbrecht 5.   Why the hullabaloo about Engelbrecht's defence deficiencies and zero about that of Morne Steyn?

I think we need to realize that this debate is not based on fair issues - but rather on player preferences of members - in other words no objectivity and only efforts to run down players you do not like and building sandcastles in respect of those you  like. 

boklogic

To be fair - Engelbrecht is not my ideal center - Saffex will crucify me for saying that - but neither is De Jongh.   In a straight choice between those two my choice will invariably be Engelbrecht.   However, I believe that Engelbrecht is really a wing - not a 13 and had said that in the past repeatedly.

The reason is that Engelbrecht has to my mind limited ball sense and relies too much on his speed as a major  and only asset.   He cannot create play that would add value to the team as a whole and his own e fforts normally runs into a cul-de-sac.

I think we need a real strong center - and am afraid that Serfontein needs more experience before he can really be the answer.   He is more of a 12 though than a 13 - and is to my mind a good back up for De Villiers.    For the rest we do have problems at 13.   De Allende may be the answer - but he is not getting enough game time on senior level to arrive at a decision.   Definitely an extremely strong tackler and ball carrier with good off-load capacity who can create space for other players - but he is only for the future and only if he can prove himself in Super 15.

The other player that impressed me in Super 15 and in CC this year was  Sadie - he was much more of an all-round player than any of the other 13's - but that of course is a no-no with most of the members on this site - and they will crucify me for saying what I did.   Jordaan has more ball sense than the other 13's combined - but he was a no show this year in Super 15  - largely because he was playing in a malfunctioning backline of the Sharks - and is injured in any event.

For the moment I believe Engelbrecht is our main and virtually only option - but I think we must watch the Super 15 next year and see who is really the best candidate for the future.     It may be Engelbrecht - or it may be another player - so that would be the best route to follow.   

I'm not sure how de Jongh entered the debate, but these are his tackling stats for all his tests....excluding three tests he wasn't on long enough to attempt a tackle:

10/1....4/0....2/0...3/1...16/0....3/0...7/1...1/0...4/1...3/0.

That makes 53 out of 57 attempted tackles or a success rate of 93%. The 16 tackles without a miss was against NZ. Pretty good for a guy who supposedly can't tackle.

Just for the record, I don't think de Jongh is a permanent answer at Bok 13. But he is a professional centre. There is no way in hell Barrett would have run into Juan and have been given a nice body massage.

A lot of hypocritical nonsense is being sprouted about the Barrett try. The OOM has gone from saying I was right about JJs deficiencies, to JJ was okay, to JJ has tackling issues. All depending on who he wants to impress. Dave can't see any issues through his rose coloured specs.

The fact is Jean shouldn't have rushed up, but he didn't touch Barrett, Morne should have tackled him instead of shepherding him to the right.....but after all that he ran slap bang into the Bok 13 who had his arms wrapped around him and missed. It was a pathetic effort that deserves to be recognized for what it was, a match altering miss.

Mozart

It was very clear how De Jongh got involved.  The argument on Engelbrecht's defence started in Super 15 - and that is why I compared his defence stats with  those of Engelbrecht.  

De Jongh built up a reputation as a good defender early on - but this year his defence was atrociously poor compared to what it was in the past.   Maybe the opposition found out how to counter his defensive efforts and being a little guy - they got the better of him.   Fact is - in his last test he was hiding on the blind side so as to not expose himself to Tuilagi - who would have done what a lot of opponents did this year - just run over him and forget about him as a defender.   Be it as it may - he definitely is not up to standard defence-wise anymore and to my mind a serious liability in that respect.   To assume that he would have tackled Barrett is really not on - taking into account his latest history - and like in the Twickenham test he might have been  hiding away from the action or he might have tried his present efforts and Barrett would have run over him like so many others did this year. 

He also came into the debate because of the similarity between his knock-on in the Murrayfield test - very similar to Engelbrecht's effort in the latest test.

You really surprise me by your latest remarks on De Jongh - namely that he is not the permanent answer - your previous postings and praise singing of De Jongh really countered that comment.   He may be a professional center - but he is also not a real option at all - he is just too big a liability on both defence and attack (where he really is not bringing anything to the party.

I accept the issue with the Barrett try - but do not assign the blame entirely to Engelbrecht after viewing the game again - even though I thought otherwise during my first viewing of the situation.   It was not necessarily the losing try - if one takes into consideration the tries given away by the extremely poor play of Alberts, Morne and Kolisi earlier in the game that led to giving away three tries in the process.

What I do emphasize is the inadequate tackling techniques of both Engelbrecht and Morne - they are in essence not ideal defenders.   However, in execution Engelbrecht is far superior to Morne - who gets beaten far too easily as was proven not only in the test against the AB's - but throughout the RC.

I do not see Engelbrecht as the final solution at 12 and would like to see how other players perform in Super 15 next year as already stated.  

Moz your take on JJ's contribution is complete rubbish, he never blew a single try scoring opportunity and in fact set up 3.......the first was putting Jean into space, who slipped, the next was putting Willie into space, who chipped ahead and nearly gathered and the last was his great break to set Willie up, only to have Morne botch it going over the line - these are all FACTS

He never got turned over for a try, you spoke nonsense about that passage of play as well, he in fact beat Cruden and Nonu and had Kolisi in support.......so did a perfect job of carrying the attack.......the try that resulted had stuff all to do with JJ and everything to do with Beast and Kirchner missing tackles - again FACTS......you cant just make this shit up

It does not get worse than blaming JJ for the Barrett try considering he got through Jean, then Morne.......and JJ being the outside defender, pundits will tell you that Barrett was never his man and that because of that he could not align to make the tackle properly........how you can begin to ignore Jean and Morne misses and point fingers at JJ is in fact insulting to a rugby follower.

Not sure what this Grey take is, Grey is in PE, I grew up in Grahamstown, going to a school in Grahamstown.

Good old Mike speaking a load of horseshit again.............talk me through this one DomMike........lets take the JJ beating of Savea, where he steps inside and then beats him on the outside, sprints away from the covering defence and then sends a perfect long pass to his wrong side, setting up Willie and in your informed opinion, he lacks ball sense and should be a wing........fuck me you are stupid.......you and Boklogic make a fine pair........the two of you do not comprehend the basic's of rugby.

JJ sets a new standard for outside centre, in the past we could have tried a player like Serfontein at 13, but he would just not have made the right impression, simply because he does not have the JJ speed and feet.......a test 13 needs to speed of a wing and the feet of a 12 and some bulk to handle the traffic........this is exactly what JJ offers.

Tell me bright Mike, if JJ is not your option at 13, pray tell me who is?????

Moz your take on the Savea beat has you sinking to an all time low.....we will leave it at that, I am not going to even bother trying to counter that shit. It had you squirming for sure........not to mention that sublime long pass to his wrong side putting Willie into space.

As for JJ being ahead of Morne, NO he was not, it was not even marginal and that is a FACT 

Boklogic if that is what you saw in that test you are even more stupid than I originally thought......case closed, I cant debate rugby with a braindead idiot......I now see why Rooinek keeps kicking your arse.

Talk me through your take on him running through Conrad Smith, stepping Cruden and beating Savea with pure skill.........and try not fucking lie about it as its on Youtube........man up and counter these 3 passages of play

Saffex

To be quite frank your rose-tinted look at Engelbrecht is the one factor that takes away the real position as to his performances.   He is not what  you constantly credit him with.   In fact he is a very speedy player - which everybody admit - but he is NOT an all round center that can create play for others as well for himself.  Speed is an advantage for any backline player - but definitely not the only attribute required fro m a center.

There are question marks about his defence - which you always defend by assigning blame to others.   In the final analysis his efforts in some cases are weakish and not effective - whether you like it or not.  

I said clearly he is the only option at this stage - but whether he will remain that depends entirely on what happens in the Super 15 next year.   I said clearly that his performance and those of other centers playing at 13 would determine who would be the best choice.  It could still be Engelbrecht - if he does improve his present performances both on attack and defence - but to rule out other players is not really the answer.  He is on average a good player - but he is not so outstanding that he is not replaceable.   One thing is for sure - he is a better option than de Jongh - who should not ever be in consideration.   For the rest I have an open mind on the issue.       

Mozart

In all fairness - both Morne and Jean fouled up putting Engelbrecht in a position where he had limited options.   A better option would have been to try a Willie le Roux and Habana trick and kick the ball over the heads of the defenders - but I think that Engelbrecht has limitations as to ball sense and that would not have entered his mind at all.

Despite the fact that I do not see him being blamed for deficiencies which should be the result of other players as well - I also think that Engelbrecht essentially is more a wing than a center - hence my earlier comments (which nearly caus ed a fit on the part of Saffex) in the relevant regard.