Mozart - As long as Mozart keep on moaning about how

poor the present team/squad is compared to the greats in the 2014 and 2015 squad were I would pummel him every time about the real situation.   We have all to accept that the Springboks starting to lose whatever glimmer of competitiveness there was after the 2014 Rugby Championship. 

After then it was downhill at fast pace.- and is not better than anything the present crowd produces.     In that period the Springboks had a poor record and they were in trouble constantly so the sooner we forget the past squad and stop lamenting about the past greats the better it would be for everybody.

Constantly referring what members wrote in the past and trying to point out how stupid they were about moaning about the situation under Meyer is also a no-no – especially bearing in mind how really problematic the situation was in 2014 and 2015.   . 

Lamenting about the great past and comparing the present squad and team to the 2015 squad is to my mind a real no-no.    We should all rather deal with the present situation, bearing in mind that both Meyer and Coetzee were thus far virtually equal partners in damaging Springbok rugby.

So lets get to the present scenario and deal with the present problems.    There are much that can be agreed upon – Coetzee’s coaching and team selection , the Jantjies situation, the Coetzee game plan, etc, while there are much to differ about too.        

 But that would mean that the childish pouter would have to give up on Meyer and his elderly favourites. 
Ain't gonna happen, Mike. 
He's attacking the young talent of today for exactly that reason. He made an arse of himself the entire Meyer era and dismissing them to the past would be like a confession. 
He reminds me strongly of my pouting uncle. 
Still believe the best thing for him is a home with round the clock care. 
Poor dear is seriously faaked in the head. 

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 23975 Mozart - As long as Mozart keep on moaning about how
September 21, 2016, 12:54:58

After then it was downhill at fast pace.- and is not better than anything the present crowd produces.     In that period the Springboks had a poor record and they were in trouble constantly so the sooner we forget the past squad and stop lamenting about the past greats th better it would be for everybody

Constantly referring what members wrote in the past and trying to point out how stupid they were about moaning about the situation under Meyer is also a no-no –

.

.

.

"We should all rather deal with the present situation, bearing in mind that both Meyer and Coetzee were thus far virtually equal partners in damaging Springbok rugby".

 

That lasted long........

 I am perfectly happy to move to the next generation, as long as that isn't comprised of the Kriels, Goosen, Jantjies, Allende, Mostert,  Mapoe, Mohoje, Stepfontein, Lambie and Raainacht(another 3 mope favorite ).

Here's the thing....the object is winning. Please try to remember that. So far the results are absolutely abysmal.

 Sure - but your evaluation of some of the present players are still based on prejudice.   Of the list of players you mentioned above I have reservations about Jantjies, Mostert, Mapoe, Mohoje and Serfontein.    I would add De Jongh to that list - he is a definite no-no at center.    However, in the case of the other players you have been misleading us on for instance Goosen in the last test.  His stats were in fact good and he was the one that made the line break that ultimately let to the try scored by Habana.   The other five players have been under attack by you for a long time - and some of the attacks are based on prejudice on your part.    But differences  about the above list is really enough to base future disagreements and agreements on.   Incidentally I agree results have been abysmal thus far - but a major part of the problem is not with players, but with the coach and inconsistencies in selection as well as his absent game plan.       

 Wonderful!!!
We're making progress.
Now for your powerful team. You know ... the one you alluded to earlier.
Can't wait!!

 Goosen hasn't taken one high ball that I can recall....he was a big part of our loss.
As for you CC life has been about waiting hasn't it. A sad boring trudge relying on the generosity of strangers. What a flop you are. Have you even moved out of the town you were born in....have you ever left the country. Tedious and depressing I'm sure.

 Hell - how must he take high balls when somebody else is contesting for the ball.  Your rating has been dubious  to say the least.    

I come in PEACE.The Goose has not been good under the high ball, granted there has on occasion been interference. Goose is NOT a TEST Fullback!!! In the Test arena his only hope is at #10 I believe. I like the chap, I wish he was the package, but he's not.I say, even though Lambie is back in the mix, start Goose at #10 (Lambie, pending fitness or Morne on the bench). Jantjies days are over.

 I grant that Goosen was not good under high balls - but which SA player has been?   The problem is that unlike SA players with their aimless kicking - players like Barret, Foley and Sanchez make strategic kicks who place recipients under extreme pressure.   That has resulted in a lot of knock-ons by SA recipients - Goosen included.   This will continue whoever is the full back.   I would also try Goosen at flyhalf with Lambie on the bench.   Morne is really bad and as you stated Jantjies is not and never will be test material.           

 I grant that Goosen was not good under high balls - but which SA player has been?   The problem is that unlike SA players with their aimless kicking - players like Barret, Foley and Sanchez make strategic kicks who place recipients under extreme pressure.   That has resulted in a lot of knock-ons by SA recipients - Goosen included.   This will continue whoever is the full back.   I would also try Goosen at flyhalf with Lambie on the bench.   Morne is really bad and as you stated Jantjies is not and never will be test material.           

 I grant that Goosen was not good under high balls - but which SA player has been?   The problem is that unlike SA players with their aimless kicking - players like Barret, Foley and Sanchez make strategic kicks who place recipients under extreme pressure.   That has resulted in a lot of knock-ons by SA recipients - Goosen included.   This will continue whoever is the full back.   I would also try Goosen at flyhalf with Lambie on the bench.   Morne is really bad and as you stated Jantjies is not and never will be test material.           

It's a problem, we're certainly not spoilt for choice are we?Maybe Willie caught a wake-up when he was booted from the squad, or play Jessica there. But Goose must play #10.  

Whaaaaat?????? No Louw ... no Alberts ... no Victor ... no Jannie ... no Morne ... no Ruan?????
How about Jaque Fourie? Or perhaps Guthro Steenkamp?
No???
 Does that mean you have no team in mind?
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaa!!!!
Thought so!! You went and painted yourself into a corner ... again, didn't you??
Haaaaaaahahahahahahaaaaa!!! 
What's new?
Too embarrassed to give us a list of your favourite pensioners? How come? Aren't they the answer to all our prayers??
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaa!!! 
Your only contribution is to mouth off at others all the while clueless to an alternative. 

Much to say about nothing. Criticise all and sundry with not a single decent suggestion to throw into the pot.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!
What a joke you've become. 

Klown, you should know Moffie by now . . . too cowardly to make any predictions but happy to ridicule other peoples predictions after the event and too gutless to suggest selections but happy to knock everyone else's.

A sad and pathetic loser obsessed with trying to prove he's some kind of rugby guru . . . which is pretty funny when it's painfully obvious he's a rugby noob who never played a game in his life and hasn't even got a grasp of the fundamentals.

Just treat the pompous old fop as comic relief. That's what he's good for.

In Moz's defense, he has said on quite a few occasions in the past that we simply don't have the talent in our player pool at the moment. So based on that logic, he would not be able to offer a team that would be better than our current team, because it is his opinion that no matter what team was he suggested, pensioners or otherwise, the pool of players would not allow that team to compete against the best. 
In short, there is no point calling him out, because with that fallback position, you cannot win the argument. 
Not picking sides, just pointing out the futility of the argument.  

Rubbish, if you're going to slag off a player then at least offer an alternative. If you don't have an alternative then rather keep your trap shut because the player you're slagging off might not be a world beater but he's still the best available.

Bluebok - This was not the object of this thread.  It was aimed at getting away from constant harping about how good things were in the past (especially 2014 and 2015) and how bad things  a re at present.    The idea is to see what is available and pick a playing squad from those - whether good or bad.   Matter of fact Coetzee still got it wrong.  Where is Janse van Rensburg?  

Bluebok - This was not the object of this thread.  It was aimed at getting away from constant harping about how good things were in the past (especially 2014 and 2015) and how bad things  a re at present.    The idea is to see what is available and pick a playing squad from those - whether good or bad.   Matter of fact Coetzee still got it wrong.  Where is Janse van Rensburg?  

 Yeah, you are right! 
I forget at times that when the last brain cell goes dormant, it can no longer be revived.  
Like giving mouth to mouth to a cadaver.
Just ain't gonna happen.


 

CC I could have one brain cell and it would whip your tedious ass. Blue you are right of course for years I have been listening to this BS of how great our young players were....taken endless grief for that view.
But of course I was right and it's already been proven.....none of Goosen, Jantjies, Allende, Mapoe, the Kriels or Mahoje are test players of any substance. Nor will Lambie be any better than he has been in the past.
There is no rule that I have to offer alternatives....but of course I have like Willemse and Snyman at lock, like Marx at hooker, like Janse at inside centre.....these players all have enough physical talent to make it. Still that's not the point. The point is a simple one.....you don't set out to negate your team the moment the WC is done. You carry a few vets over and feed in new talent off the bench. That's what all the great coaches do.....but not what our geniuses on the Board want.
You chaps look pretty stupid now....try to accept your medicine....you know who you are.

 It does not help - I cannot succeed in getting the discussions by Mozart to a logical level.   Most of the players should have been in the mix a couple of years and the inadequate ones identified.   However, Mozart is still lamenting about the issue because of this years results to prove something without evaluating the situation of the past.   The AB's are in a different class - their replacement players in fact has been around for a couple of years and played quite frequently on test level - in most cases they are better than the players they replaced were by  2015.     

 It does not help - I cannot succeed in getting the discussions by Mozart to a logical level.   Most of the players should have been in the mix a couple of years and the inadequate ones identified.   However, Mozart is still lamenting about the issue because of this years results to prove something without evaluating the situation of the past.   The AB's are in a different class - their replacement players in fact has been around for a couple of years and played quite frequently on test level - in most cases they are better than the players they replaced were by  2015.     

' They should have been in the mix years ago'.....nope, useless now even more useless when they had no experience.

 Mozart - sorry but the situation is that a squad is built up over years - not in one swoop.   The fact that there was no squad development since 2012 is hitting hard now.  It is a huge mess and now individual players get the blame.   That is why we are in the present mess.   The present coach and his supporting staff add to the problem - but your assessment of individual players are way overboard and prejudiced.   I am with CC on this one - you can hardly be credited with any logical assessment.     

 Mozart - sorry but the situation is that a squad is built up over years - not in one swoop.   The fact that there was no squad development since 2012 is hitting hard now.  It is a huge mess and now individual players get the blame.   That is why we are in the present mess.   The present coach and his supporting staff add to the problem - but your assessment of individual players are way overboard and prejudiced.   I am with CC on this one - you can hardly be credited with any logical assessment.     

 But Mozart, didn't you tell us earlier that Janse van Rensburg has defensive issues? That he's not a test centre?
Could have sworn you said that. 
Also ... I thought you said De Jongh organised our backline defence as it should have been ... that we were more organised defensively ... more structured ... better off with his inclusion at 12??
Yes I know we had 6 trys run in past us ... and yes I know the Polynesians are to blame but still why the sudden change of heart? I thought De Jongh was your man for the future. 
I really can't keep up with your mood swings. 

 CC - Mozart wrote about Marx being deep-sixed, but is dead quiet about De Jongh playing for the WP this weekend - he was not deep-sixed.   By the way De Jongh was organising the Springboks defense - but forgot in the process to make tackles himself.  Would rather say he was disorganising the defense.   But Mozart will be Mozart.   I referred to the fact that Goosen made the crucial break leading to the try on Saturday - but Mozart keep on saying he cost the Springboks the match,   There was in fact no indication tha t he did - but that spells out clearly how Mozart assessed matches.   By the way talking of Goosen the week before Mozart said he made a weak tackle on Kerevi - but he made a try-saving tackle - so the assessment of Mozart was totally defective.   I call his assessments  something between prejudice, rank stupidity and total falsification.  

 CC - Mozart wrote about Marx being deep-sixed, but is dead quiet about De Jongh playing for the WP this weekend - he was not deep-sixed.   By the way De Jongh was organising the Springboks defense - but forgot in the process to make tackles himself.  Would rather say he was disorganising the defense.   But Mozart will be Mozart.   I referred to the fact that Goosen made the crucial break leading to the try on Saturday - but Mozart keep on saying he cost the Springboks the match,   There was in fact no indication tha t he did - but that spells out clearly how Mozart assessed matches.   By the way talking of Goosen the week before Mozart said he made a weak tackle on Kerevi - but he made a try-saving tackle - so the assessment of Mozart was totally defective.   I call his assessments  something between prejudice, rank stupidity and total falsification.  

 Nope and nope. 
On Rohan I have said time and again he is my pick for 12....but that his defensive stats are below par, and he needs to work on that. An adult assessment not a groupie whitewash.
On Marx I simply reproduced the article from SARugby mag and said he should be kept in the match squad, and that we could have helped him by simplifying the lineout calls.

Let's keep the debate civil and avoid the lies shall we.

 And in case your notorious memory lets  you down again Tokkie.....here is my comment on the SA Rugby Mag article.

 "It's hard to argue with sending Bongi, Move-ou, Paige and Nyakane back to their provinces. They are surplus to requirements and won't be missed. It's also striking that all of these players came in under the quota consideration. Does this mean that the losses and the outcry have caused a brief reprieve in this unfair practice? If so this announcement is helpful.

But dumping Marx is puzzling. Certainly he botched several lineout throws, and as a Super Rugby finalist it's disappointing. But the Boks continued to call some complex lineout plays which didn't help Marx find his jumpers. He also had one spectacular bust and looked the part in general play.

One wonders if he got some of the blame for the two botched scrums where Koch got penalized.....but the Lions' scrum looks more than solid with him in the middle.

Unlike Mostert and Kriel he wasn't anonymous and is far better suited physically than those two lightweights.  It all seems a bit premature."

 And here Carbuncle is my comment on Rohan

Centres.....are there any answers
July 13, 2016, 15:57:33

Our centres were almost irrelevant against Ireland....only one barging run by Allende in our second test revival counted. Finding a centre pairing that functions remains our most pressing selection problem....even more pressing than tighthead or flyhalf. 

So far this year we have regressed at 8th man, fullback, tighthead, blindside .....and certainly centre. We have only found new answers at scrumhalf and right wing.
But centre is by far our biggest issue. We were pretty hopeless at the WC where defensive lapses by Allende and Kriel were big contributors to our Japan and NZ losses. And on attack they did almost nothing....they could simply find no way to insert themselves in the action. Their best contributions were a few turnovers by Allende in the NZ game.
But if their WC was bad....now they are worse! Kriel totally toothless at centre for the Bools is back at fullback....you can forget about him as a centre.
Allende seems uncertain...robotic. The most striking feature about this player is the ability to lose what he previously did well. He was good at offloads last S15....never seen again. At the WC he was good at turnovers...he hardly contests the downed ball  anymore. Last year he could break tackles....this year he is regularly stopped by the first tackler. Rather than adding new skills, he seems to lose old skills.

No doubt Allende was the brightest new prospect for years, with all the physical attributes. But mentally he seems to be a slow learner, uncertain and quick to lose confidence. His ability to create anything via the pass is about zero right now.
Step in the meantime continues to be dog ordinary. Esterhosen is a big clumsy fellow, who doesn't really look test class, but in a centre famine may have to be considered. Mapoe and de Jongh can fill in...but aren't the long term answer. It's bleak.
About the only bright spot is van Rensburg who dominated Step before the international break and continues to score tries and make big metres. But his defensive stats aren't great....and he is playing in a dominating team. Still he looks to be the best new option and the one player that generates some enthusiasm.

Edit post

•  0 Likes

  Still no Rohan in Bok squad ... why?

 

Lets take the above contribution of Mozart and see what is the actual situation since the guy is always writing tripe:-

“But centre is by far our biggest issue. We were pretty hopeless at the WC where defensive lapses by Allende and Kriel were big contributors to our Japan and NZ losses. And on attack they did almost nothing....they could simply find no way to insert themselves in the action. Their best contributions were a few turnovers by Allende in the NZ game”’

The Japan test

De Allende did not play in the Japan test – the inside center that day was De Villiers.   Kriel did play – nut to blame him for the Japan loss is one of the weirdest ideas I have ever come across.  Mozart will not accept that the most experienced team ever fielded by the Springboks were pathetic.  He blames Kriel for the final try – yet photo evidence by his supporter Pakie showed that Kriel was not in a position to defend against that try and the nearest player was in fact Pietersen who did squat.   If Kriel’s missed tackle ratio on that day was pathetic – so was De Villiers.   Both players has a missed tackle ratio of 20%.   This is a Goebbels case – if a lie is repeated often enough some people may accept it as the truth.

The AB tests

De Allende started in two  tests against the AB’s and Kriel in three.   So lets analyse these test stats and find out what the real situation is:-

De Allende

The July test in 2015

de Allende

0/0

0

0/6/11

46

2

6

0

0

10/2

0/0

0

0/0

 

In that test De Allende outplayed Nonu so comprehensively that the latter was replaced early.  To hodld him responsible for that loss is crazy. A top class performance by all acounts

The WC semi-final

de Allende

0/0

0

0/1/8

28

1

2

0

2

8/2

0/0

0

0/0

 

De Allende had the best stats of any centre in the WC and in a game wher the Springboks gme plan was pathetic he had minimal opportunities.  Mozart blames him for a try being scored because of a bad tackle attempt  but that has been proven as an outright lie on his part – he was stupid enough to post a video clip which proved that it was a lie.   

Kriel

The July test in 2015

Kriel

1/1

5

0/3/11

76

2

3

0

2

4/4

0/0

1

0/0

 

Kriel’s defense on the day was not aceptable – but he did score a try and made another one.  His attacking stats were outstanding.   However, Mozart would ignore the latter since scoring of tries does not count in his copybook.

 The WC semi-final

Kriel

0/0

0

3/0/1

21

1

0

0

0

2/1

0/0

0

0/0

 

Kriel had virtually no opportunities in that game -  but there was no indication that he contributed to the loss by the Springboks. 

The RC September 2016 test

JA Kriel

0/0

0

2/0/6

1

0

1

0

0

1/2

0/0

0

0/0

 

There can be no doubt that Kriel was inefetive in that game – both from an attacking and defending perspective= but to blame him for the loss is mot on.  The main problems in that test from a backline perspective were De Jongh at 12 and Jantjies at 10,   The defense by those two was despicable.  De Jongh’s stats were even worse than Jantjies. 

I would not deal with the issue of De Allende as to ball protection and recovery – because the argument is Mozart’s own invented story and there is no evidence that it is the truth

In essence both Kriel and De Allende was acceptable last year as a center pairing in the tests they played together – but this year they were not a pair at centre in the AB game.   Where they were played as a center combination they were less effective than they were last year – but there are other circumstances at present that could have an impact on their present performances. 

Oh sure Tokkie Kriel didn't miss the tackle that lost the Japanese game....and Allende didn't allow Nonu to run metres and create an overlap in the semi. Those were different players.....hahahaha....I've forgotten what numbers did these other chaps have?
Its better not to go down a Dave JJ rabbit hole....accept what everybody is seeing with their own eyes....Allende and Kriel are not test centres. 

 Did you just throw a tantrum, Mozart?
Haaaaaahahahahahahaaaa.
Calm down, old man. You gotta watch the blood pressure.    
The problem with your posts is that one moment your in favour of a player and the next you're ripping into him. Is it because you suffer from short term memory loss or is debating with yourself that enjoyable?
No need to answer that. I don't really care.  
It's all very nice that you went and fished out your favourable posting of Janse van Rensburg ... now let's have the one where you slagged him off.
It's easy to defend yourself when you play both sides of the fence.   
Problem though is that the few who actually read your confusing posts tend to remember what you said last week and end up making comparisons to the different line you take this week.
A suggestion if you don't mind ... decide on the bullshyte story you wanna sell us and then stick to it. This chopping and changing doesn't do your credibility any good.
Ok??

 Mozart - First of all - lies and misleading statements do not help - and both your latest are absolute BS.  Kriel was not in any position to tackle the Japanese try scorer and Pakie's photos proved that.    The person who should have made an effort to make the tackle was Pietersen and he did squat,   As to the Nonu issue - Nonu did not run towards the opposition but across the field with De Allende following him and tackled him - Pietersen did not guard the opposing player and did squat again.  You said the tackle was not made and you lied outright about it.   You even shot yourself in the foot by posting a video clip proving that you were making an asshole of yourself.   Why are you not honest for a change?        

 Duplication      

Kriel was not in any position to tackle the Japanese try scorer and Pakie's photos proved that.
Mike, how do you reach that conclusion? My photos, and the comments I added to them, showed that Kriel had to make the key tackle on the ball carrier Mafi that would have stopped the move. He missed it. This allowed Mafi to keep running, giving Japan the width they needed to beat the Bok cover defense before throwing the scoring pass. 
Jeez, how do you want to talk rugby when you can't even correctly analyze a simple, clear-cut situation like that? Kriel's missed tackle made the try possible. 

 Kriel tried to tackle the man around the head and shoulders and was easily fended off. 
That was all it took to open the try-line.
The blame however cannot be placed solely on him. The Boks should have been 50 pts up by then ... but they weren't and we ended up losing to a team outside the top 10.
No amount of suds will ever wash that stain away.