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FORUM / RUGBY /  Mozart - something not relted to rugby

Mozart - something not relted to rugby

Started by clevermike9 REPLIES536 VIEWS· 05 Nov 2013, 11:13
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Nov 2013, 11:13
#1
05 Nov 2013, 11:13#1

Despite the rugby jabs made at times - I am always respecting your wide knbnowl;edge of things not only on rugby - but on a much wider range of things.

 

On reading up on some of the Museums in Cape Town - I came across a number of items and wonder what those would be worth currently.   The following belonged to the De Wet family and was later either bought by the so-called National Society for donation to the Government or the Kimberley Museum:-

 

*   a Louis XVI ormolu box, with mother of pearl lid, and inlaid enamel, by Vervain, sold for 26 shillings;

 

*   A glass tumbler, engraved with a portrait of Louis XVI, presented by him to a member of the de Lettre family

 

*   the Breda service consisting of 3 branched candelabra, 5 entrée dishes, 4 covered dishes and 2 sauce-tureens. It was bought in London in the 1834 for Michel van Breda of Oranjezicht, with slave emancipation money. It set the Committee back £500 10s.

 

*  One ceramic piece of major importance was bought in 1913 for £53. It is a bottle shaped vase, enamelled in famille rose with sprays of fruiting peach, bearing the Ch'ien Lung seal mark and of the period.[

 

*   Sebastian Franck's Dat wereltboek, spiegel ende Beeltnisse des gheleelen Aertbodems, in vier boecken (te wetenim Asiam, Africam, Europam ende Americam) gealtelt ende afgedeylt, written in 1531 and published in 1562 and 1563

 

*   Abraham Josias Sluysken's handwritten report on the capitulation of the Cape to the British forces under Admiral Sir George Elphinstone on 10 June 1795. This manuscript was later purchased by the Kimberley Public Library (through Morrison) with the aid of a donation by De Beers.[

 

One wonders how those items amongst hundreds of others came in possession of the De Wet family.  I would guess that in present currency value - the above items would be worth millions.   What do you think the value would be?.

 

What was also interesting is that Mrs Koopmans De Wet's father was involved in the establishment of your old alma mater - Cape Town University and she hereelf was instrumental in the retention of the old Malay cemetery and especially the Castle in Cape Town - when those were under threat.  She also opposed alternations intended to be made on Groot Constantia during the 1880's, which would have altered the building from its original form as constructed in the 17 th century.  The family must have done a massive amount of work to preserve the most important places in Cape Town

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Nov 2013, 18:44
#2
05 Nov 2013, 18:44#2
Mike all these items have specific markets, and you need an expert who covers those items. I could try to opine on some modern art, impressionist art, glass, clocks, eighteenth century furniture, art deco, tapestries.... not on ceramics, or historical documents.
But the same principles apply. How collected is the category. Is the piece an example of a desired period or model. What is its history and ownership, things owned by Royal or prominent families carry greater value. Is it signed or clearly attributed to somebody of note, like Giles Grendy in eighteenth century English furniture. What is its condition. And is it aesthetically successful.
Then it becomes a question of supply and demand. They made 399 Enzo Ferraris. And the car has doubled in value. If they made 39 it would probably have tripled beyond that.
Generally stuff that attracts new big money, like modern art and collector cars,  is where the action is.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
05 Nov 2013, 18:54
#3
05 Nov 2013, 18:54#3
 Mozart you have been somewhat silent with no comments today?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Nov 2013, 18:59
#4
05 Nov 2013, 18:59#4
Time change in the States...I'm just finishing breakfast!  
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
05 Nov 2013, 19:03
#5
05 Nov 2013, 19:03#5
 your last few comments have come out blank!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Nov 2013, 19:09
#6
05 Nov 2013, 19:09#6
Probably an improvement!  It's a wobbly start, I keep missing the buttons on my IPad.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Nov 2013, 22:16
#7
05 Nov 2013, 22:16#7

 Mozart

 

Tour comment on the above is interesting insofar as royal involvement as to the above are concerned:-

 

*   The tumbler that Louis XVI gave to  a member of the de Lettre family;

 

*   The bottle shaped vase was given as a present by the  Chi'en Lung emperor to the Dutch Ambassador Extraordinaire Van Tilsingh - who on behalf of he Dutch East India Company tried to agree to a trade treaty with the emper0 r in the 1780's.  He was prepared to kow tow to the Emperor and ended up with the treaty.  The English  ambassador would not kow tow and were told to go without being received by the emperor without any treaty.  The vase was consequently a very rare item  - since the emperor never received any other Westerners ever.   After Van Tilsingh's death the vase was obtained by the De  Wet family from his estate.   

 

*   The Sebastian Frank's books were apparently a present given to Marie Koopmans De Wet by King Wilhelm II of the Netherlands when she was received by him during 1881, when she and her sister visited various countries in Europe,          

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Nov 2013, 01:32
#8
06 Nov 2013, 01:32#8
Very good provenance. Hopefully there is a paper  trail as well.  
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
06 Nov 2013, 02:26
#9
06 Nov 2013, 02:26#9
 The old saw about quality always applies ,rarely does old crap become expensive old crap unless its historical and rare old crap ! [ although I have some japanese tin toys from the 50s and 60s that cost me a painful amount of money !]Mike your an engineer arent you ? when in Europe did you check out any towns based around De Vaughbans star forts ? Especialy on the Rhine ? 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Nov 2013, 03:52
#10
06 Nov 2013, 03:52#10

Mozart

 

There is a definite paper trail insofar as the Van Tilsingh story is concerned on both the Dutch, English and Chinese side - and it is also a fact that Koopmans De Wet developed close ties with Dutch royalty.   She was received by King Wilhelm in 1881 - and  in correspondence subsequently with them -  a recorded letter was one she sent in 1890 to Queen Emma after the death of Wilhelm.   It is also likely that that relationship  contributed to the sending of a Dutch warship by Queen Wilhelmina to pick up President Kruger (a friend of Koopmans de Wet) during the Boer War.      

 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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