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FORUM / RUGBY /  Mozart - the Evaluation of stats

Mozart - the Evaluation of stats

Started by clevermike16 REPLIES226 VIEWS· 03 Apr 2014, 08:56
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 08:56
#1
03 Apr 2014, 08:56#1

Mozart uses all kinds of comments to justify his spurious assessment of player performances - but in respect of one thing I agree with him  and that is the usage of raw stats is undesirable.  Stats should be used in context and should be evaluated and developed to optimize usage potential.


Mozart is not always reliable - he is not beyond using raw stats if he thinks it supports his arguments on players - but  in the case of one of his favourites (De Jongh)  he gave us an insight into how stats should be developed to make meaningful sense.


 Taking his evaluation enhancement comments on stats into account - I have decided to do once a week an evaluation of one of his favoured players on the basis he said it should be done,  This week it is the example of Francois Steyn - a player he punted as the 12 of the week.


So lets do the evaluation on Steyn's performances in the 6 games he played in thus far and see what comes up:-


Steyn

0/1

39

21/31/42

74

0

8

2

11

39/13

0/0

10

0/0


Try Assists


In his first game this year there was a very good cross kick of Steyn that resulted in a try scored by Ndungane.   Unfortunately never repeated in later games


Goal Conversions


Try conversions   -   6

Penalties            -   9


Steyn was very good in kicking at goal - he attempted 16 kicks at goal and missed only once - his success rate being  92,9%.   He consequently added 39 points to the Sharks 181 points gained in the matches played.   Percentage contribution 21,5%.


Extremely effective in kicking at goal - some kicks being long distance and very difficult to convert  


Ball Handling


This include three essential components, namely -


*   kicking of balls from hand;

*   passing of balls; and

*   ball carries


In the six games played Steyn handled the ball 94 times.   He kicked the ball 21 times, passed the ball 31 times and carried the ball 42 times.


Kicking game - 22,3%


He kicked the ball 21 times.   Circa 50% (11 kicks) gained the Sharks considerably territory or in one case lead to scoring of a try, 6 kicks were not effective and gained no territory and 4 kicks were poor = one of which was a penalty kick where he failed to find touch.


Effectiveness 55%.


Passing Game - 32,8%


Effectively the situation is that Steyn tends to pass once in respect of every 2 balls handled by him.   Of the 31 balls passed - 9 passed balls were in the game where he played at flyhalf and 22 whilst playing at center.   


His passing game is questionable since -


*   his passes were frequently inaccurate leading to knocking on of balls by the recipient or even wild where the ball was just not reaching any players; and


*   often enough to players who were in a worse position than him with no positive effects.


Part of the reason for the 11 ball possession losses by him stem from wayward and forward passes.


Effectiveness   - 20%


Ball carries -  44,7% 


Steyn tends to hang onto balls too much and try to much on his own.   Not passing 44,7% of the balls is just not high enough and leads to predictability on his part.


Distance gained per carry


Steyn carried the ball 42 times for a total territory gain of 74 meters over the gain line.   That represents an average gain of  1,8 meters per carry.   The problem is that Steyn is predictable and runs straight at the first defender - which eases defense strategies of the opposition.  


Totally ineffective with no clear benefits to the team.


Line breaks


The 42 carries produced no line breaks          


Totally ineffective with no clear benefits to the team.   


Defenders beaten


In the 42 ball carries by Steyn - he beat 8 defenders.   in that he beat a defender 19% of the total ball carries.


Effectiveness - 20%


Off Loads


In carrying the ball 42 times - he off-loaded the ball on 2 occasions.


Not effective at all


Possession losses 


There is a variety of reasons for possession losses = but they are in the main due to ball carrying.   In the case of 42 carries Steyn lost possession of the ball 11 times. That represents 26.2% of all carries.   


Very poor in ball protection and handling.


Tackling - Defense 


In total Steyn made 39 tackles and missed 13 in the games played.   An evlaution of the tackles actually made indicates that about 50% can be assessed as strong/good tackles and 50% as routine tackles where opposing players could pass or off-load balls in tackle situations.


The worrying factor is the missed tackle ratio of 25% of all attempted tackles.   This is 15% higher than is acceptable for a backline player and raises serious question marks about Steyn's defense.


In analyzing the high percentage of missed tackles they are in the main due to Steyn;s deficiency in speed and the consequential mistiming of tackle attempts.


Defense really questionable.


Penalties Given away


The penalty count is much higher than in the case of other centers and is basically due to -

        

*    hanging on to balls in tackle situations; 

*    dangerous and unacceptable tackles on opposing players; and

*    going off-side in ordinary play


An unacceptable high number of penalties given away.


CONCLUSIONS


After analyzing the stats I leave it to members to decide whether Steyn's performance to date was acceptable or not.  


I believe there are too many deficiencies in his performances to date to make a positive deduction insofar as performance is concerned and the player will have to improve drastically in most facets of play to earn a pass mark.


I expect nothing other from Mozart than his standard personal attacks, but bearing in mind the above - I would like to find out if he can fault the refining of the stats to give us a more realistic picture of Steyn's performance to date.


    




CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
03 Apr 2014, 12:46
#2
03 Apr 2014, 12:46#2
 Ou Maaikie, I am in no way going to claim that I am a boffin when it comes to statistics. I had too much of a struggle to get through Stats 101 to make any such claim but you do not understand the difference between raw data and statistics. Most importantly you have no clue on how to interpret the little bits of data that is available in the media. On top of that, you are building these massive theories around pieces of simplified raw data. The data that is available in the media is not 10% of the actual data. It is far from complete sets of statistics.

Let me give you an example. You look at the k/p/r data of a particular player and then you decide whether or not he has "aimlessly kicked away every ball". Fact is that the data is not conclusive of what has actually happened. It does not give any breakdown of where the ball was kicked from, what the situation was as far as field position is concerned, etc. How many of the balls were kicked from inside the own 22, i.e. defensive kicks to get the team out of trouble and away from their own goal line? How many balls were kicked towards the end of game to keep field position and to defend a lead, etc,etc, etc? It is always going to be difficult to prove your argument using the minimum data and your own half-baked statistical analysis.

Let's get to your campaign against Frans Steyn. You are over-simplifying the already simplified bare minimum data by just adding it up and using the aggregates.

You are making bold statements and claim them to be facts but you fail to look at the situation in total. You try to prove that he is a weak link in the Sharks backline by using his own data and nothing else, without looking at what happens around him and what his influence is on those around him. You have to, at least, look at what happens on his outside. It is true that he has not made hundreds of meters with ball in hand but what has happened when he "crash-balled"? To see that, you have to look at the data of the player next to him. I will start from the first game, because you have decided to do so as well.

The game against the Bulls:
Steyn made 9 runs for a total of "only" 25 meters but Jordaan, on his outside" made 99m from only 7 runs (ave 14m/run). That means that he must have been "put into space" a few times, don't you think? Especially since he had 4 clean breaks. Steyn also has a try assist to his name and Jordaan has scored one try. Now, the data does not give an indication of whether it was the Steyn assist that led to Jordaan's try. However, it is clear that Jordaan could well have benefited from Steyn's play. I am not even going to show you what happened between the Bulls' two centres but it was very much the opposite as what happened between Steyn and Jordaan.

Sharks v Hurricanes.
Pretty much the same pattern. Steyn only made 16m off 11 runs but Jordaan, on his outside made 34m from one run and one clean break again. Fact is that in that game the Sharks were pretty much playing a kicking game with little ball going down the backline. Between Reinach, Lambie and Marais, at FB, they kicked 31 times, with Lambie kicking the most (17 times).

Sharks v Lions.
This time around we saw Steyn at 10 with Williams inside of Jordaan. Guess what? Jordaan made "only" 12 meters from 6 runs(ave 2m/run). One clean break from Jordaan.

Sharks v Reds
This time we had Sithole outside of Steyn. Steyn made "only" 6m from 3 runs. Sithole made 48m off 7 runs (ave 6.9m/run). Starting to see a pattern Maaikie?

Sharks v Bulls
Steyn 0m from 4 runs. Sithole 29m from 3 runs.

Sharks v Waratahs.
Steyn 14m from 7 runs. Sithole 15m from 5 runs.

The above does not even take into account the unique characteristics of each of the games, i.e. the different approaches and strategies, etc. It only takes into account the basic raw data that is available. I have not even bothered to pay attention to the rest of your evaluation.

Your idea of forming a verdict of how useless Frans Steyn (or any other player for that matter), based solely on the aggregate of his actions on-field, is flawed and useless. It would be of more value if you rather give and opinion, instead of trying to use "stats". Then again, you have already stated that he is useless on so many occasions..............
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 13:08
#3
03 Apr 2014, 13:08#3

Nice posting Vlag. The same is probably true defensively. Steyn may miss a few tackles based on lateral movement. But that usually takes the runner inside right into the strength of the defence. He doesn't chase the lateral inside runners and I have  yet to see him beaten on the outside.

 

Also when Frans makes a tackle the player goes down, even if it is a big loosie. So there is no offload, no scrambling back by the defensive line....just a clean kill.

 

Butch James  never had the best tackling stats. But the Boks were watertight when he played. The huge hits, legal or not, had their effect. Fransie likewise is a force...given a target he is going to do damage and create turnover opportunities.

 

Put all of those factors together, the ability to spring the player outside him, the ability to stop loosies and create turnover opportunities and the huge boot....and you have a force at inside back. Steyn's strengths fit Bok rugby like a glove. We are never going to be prancing around running beautiful patterns at the RWC....we are going to play tough defence and attack with pace from turnovers.

 

And speaking of turnovers, I haven't seen a modern player who scoops the ball off the deck better than Fransie. Nor a player who exploits space behind more effectively....the extra 5 metres gets the ball over the top.

 

We have a weapon in Fransie, we would be foolish not to use him.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
03 Apr 2014, 13:30
#4
03 Apr 2014, 13:30#4
 Moz, I have watched part of Toulouse/Toulon game earlier and just realised again how deceiving these "stats" can be. Ten minutes into the game Danie Rossouw tries to tackle Tekori, the big Toulouse lock, who bumps him off. At that stage it is of course an immediate missed tackle against Danie but then he picks himself up and  goes after Tekori againand brings him down 5m further. Fact is that the first missed tackle stands.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 13:39
#5
03 Apr 2014, 13:39#5
Yep.....the quality of the tackle isn't reflected either. Admittedly this is hard to do with numbers, but we do it with our eyes all the time....downgrading the weak high tackle which leads to metres in contact and a ppreciating the clinical low hit.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 14:35
#6
03 Apr 2014, 14:35#6
 Mozart
In dreamland again.  "Steyn may miss a few tackles based on lateral movement. But that usually takes the runner inside right into the strength of the defence. He doesn't chase the lateral inside runners and I have  yet to see him beaten on the outside."   Harris beating him on the outside twice (so badly - Steyn never even attempted a tackle) the second time to score under the posts.  Faf de Klerk also beat him on the outside - so your generalized statement has serious holes.
"Also when Frans makes a tackle the player goes down, even if it is a big loosie. So there is no offload, no scrambling back by the defensive line....just a clean kill."   This generalized statement is true in about 50% of the tackles.   The other tackles are not all that effective.  None of his tackles - good or ordinary - have  let to ball losses by the opposition.   There is little proof of "a clean kill" in any of the tackles.   
"Fransie likewise is a force...given a target he is going to do damage and create turnover opportunities."   In your dreams - Steyn has never caused a ball loos to the opposition.  There may be a threat - but the threat has never materialized.
Look - I dealt with the statistics and not hopes and dreams that did not happen.   You are welcome to accept your own ideas - but there are serious holes in Steyn's performance. 
 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 15:04
#7
03 Apr 2014, 15:04#7
Ceradyne
Just a few comments on your observations
Huricanes game
The kicks of Marais and Lambie was in the main return kicks when the Hurricanes kicked the ball and two kicks of Steyn was penalty line kicks.   Lambie passed the ball 11 times to Steyn and once to Jordaan directly.   Steyn never passed a ball to Jordaan - in the whole game he passed the ball once to Marais when in traffic. In no other case did he pass a ball to any other player outside of him.  The other four passes was when he was near to a maul and the ball came out - picked up buy him and passed to Lambie or forwards.   A serious case of ball hogging was in evidence.
Lions game
This was the game where Steyn passed more balls than in any other game.   The passes were in half the cases poor and inaccurate.   Steyn did skip Williams twice and passed balls directly to Jordaan - who was in traffic by the time he got the ball - no space to create anything.
Reds game 
During the game Steyn passed the ball only three times.  Sithole handled the ball seven times - so even if Steyn passed the ball 3 times to him - the assumption that he got the ball from Steyn to make all the meters is a wild guess.   All of Pietersen, Sithole and Mvovo covered long distances in ball carries, but they did not get the ball from Steyn.  Where Sithole got the ball - he was in traffic already - so Steyn's passes was not the springboard for distance gains as implied by you.
Bulls game
This is the only game that your alleged pattern may be of consequence.   
Sorry - try again - the explanation is not convincing at all.   
 
    
TT
The_TruthClub Pro471 posts
03 Apr 2014, 16:05
#8
03 Apr 2014, 16:05#8
 The stats that are mostly quoted are incomplete in any case and it is not position specific either. Its a little bit of generalised nonsense to keep things like fantasy rugby alive and has little or no relation to actually playing the game. Where is the stats regarding ball protection at the ruck, counter-rucks, clean-outs, channel successfully protected so that a pass is made before a tackle is needed, overlaps created by drawing a defender (and being tackled), to the advantage of his team. Where are the stats to show a specific defender is a good communicator that can organise the defensive line?

In terms of context...

Example 1:
A player can be so secure on defence in his own channel, that the channel is rarely attacked and the ball is shifted elsewhere for example. That will give the player a very low tackle count, just because he rarely needs to make a tackle.

Example 2:
Player X makes 12 tackles and misses zero. In each of those tackles he is dominated, dragged back, an off-load made or the ball is quickly recycled. That means zero effective tackles in the context of the game. Player Y makes 5 tackles out of 8. All the tackles he made are dominant in nature and wraps the ball carrier up and drives him back. In all his misses he forces the attacker into a next channel where he is lined up by another defender that makes a dominant tackle. So even the three misses end up to be to the advantage of the defending side. So it ends up as 8 effective tackles in the context of the game.

Example 3:
One kick of 60m leading to possession for other team. After 15 phases and five minutes the opposition manage to make up the 60m (and lets add another 10m for fun) to get back into an attacking position. A penalty is conceded by the attacking team for holding on and the penalty kick (50m) goes into touch. The team that originally defended now gets a line-out (and possession) in a position 40m closer to the opposition try line (relative to the position of the original kick five minutes earlier)... Was the original kick aimless?

Over a period of time, you may even notice certain patterns or tendencies, but then, the question needs to be asked in relation to that... Does that piece of data matter in the context of what is required of that specific player, playing in that specific position within the specific game-plan being employed.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 18:10
#9
03 Apr 2014, 18:10#9
 The Troof Fairy
Is back.   I have sad repeatedly that stats in an individual match do not really show anything conclusive - stats over a number of games shows a tendency.
If you think that players shy away from certain players to avoid being tackled 0 you are talking absolute tripe - but that is normal of you.   Players at center try and run toi the gap between two players - thus trying to draw in an extra defender - thus creating space for players on their outside.  That is the general rule 0 and that rule applies to S teyn as well.   
Example 1
There is no evidence that what you describe ever happened in the case of Steyn.   His total attempted tackles is in line with other 12's for a similar number of games played - but their miss tackle ratio is much lower than  Steyn's.   That said - there is no indication that anyone is afraid to face  Steyn in a tackle situation.  Nice fairy tale though.
Example 2
Another airy-fairy story.   The domination of any player making tackles are actually not 12 out of 12 on Super 14 level.   Matter of fact it is rare that players are "dominated in tackle situations.  If that theory happens - they would not last in any of the teams.  Steyn at best make half of his tackles as effective tackles,   So what does that have to do about driving a person into the next defender.   He missed tackles without driving players anywhere - so you theory goes out of the window again.
Tackles are dominant if the tackled player loses possession or is driven back and the result is the team is penalized or lose possession in the resultant maul.   Otherwise you are dealing with bog ordinary tackles where the attacking team retains possession and carry on with the attack.  Have you seen any of this type of thing in a Steyn tackles this year?  He at best make effective tackles in about half of the cases - there were no dominant tackles in evidence at all.
Example 3
Sure the example you mentioned is not aimless - but how many times does it happen in match situations?  Steyn made some very good clearance kicks - but also some poor ones - like missed finding touch when he had to kick a penalty kick.  He has a fairly high effective rating in kicks - but that is not always a balance that produce effective results.
Be it as it may - even with mozart wishful thinking Steyn is a center 0 who had one game as a flyhalf - highly unlikely to be repeated and a center has a minor role in kicking games.   Maybe if one ever see an effective box kick over the defenders or even a dribble kick - he can be credited for that,  but it just did not happen.         
            
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 18:36
#10
03 Apr 2014, 18:36#10
Trouble is Clever all those incidents you quote are probably just lies. So if you want us to believe, put a presentation showing the incidents  together and perhaps you might be able to make your point. But sadly after exposing you on Lambie  vs Morne, de Jongh's test stats and numerous other topics....most recently Matfield's arched back....I just don't believe a word you say.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 19:02
#11
03 Apr 2014, 19:02#11
 Mpzart
Just what I expected from you - a host of flowery language with a prospec t of how good and frightening Steyn is and how afraid players are of him - no evidence to support it.
Next try a personal attack and accusation of lies and all kind of wild statements.   So what can be deduced from that - the man is cornered and now have to use his normal strategy of getting wildly personal to get out of the hole he fell into.
I expected that happen and even mentioned it in the posting/  After all Mozart unashamedly said he use anything - false or true to support his points of view.  
I have no problem in dealing with false accusations made by members - I merely ignore the bullshit -  it will always be them  who have the egg in their faces and to worry about it.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 22:09
#12
03 Apr 2014, 22:09#12
Put up the video....or shut up OOM  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 22:32
#13
03 Apr 2014, 22:32#13
Mozart
What video are you referring  to - all the games Steyn played in this year.  I am sure you can find the game recordings somewhere and you are welcome to check those.   You will no doubt find that I am very near the mark with my assessments.  I keep note of certain players - and mark down the times and occurrences whenever they touch the ball or make/miss tackles.  Steyn is one of the controversial players on this site and I keep specific track of him. 

You are indeed welcome to watch all the games again and check where I am wrong in my assessment.   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 22:54
#14
03 Apr 2014, 22:54#14
No OOM, never again. I'm not going to waste my time proving your lies again....produce a video like Sun did exposing Goosen.....or shut up.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Apr 2014, 23:08
#15
03 Apr 2014, 23:08#15
All this was expected - and suddenly the stats and stats evaluation are all lies.  What a farce!!!!!!!!!!!
One of Mozart's heroes are found to have feet of clay - but he is not ma n enough to even consider it.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Apr 2014, 23:58
#16
03 Apr 2014, 23:58#16

I'm sure they use this expression in the Natal Provincial administration......just 5 words:

 

put.....up ...or... shut.... up

 

Can I be any clearer?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Apr 2014, 05:11
#17
04 Apr 2014, 05:11#17
Mozart
Would not know what they say in the Natal Provincial Administration - had never had any association with them -  so reference to them is really stupid.   
— END OF THREAD —

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