Mujati blames Quota system

Former Springbok prop Brian Mujati has admitted that South Africa's quota system forced him to further his career overseas.

Mujati left South Africa to play for English club Northampton Saints in 2009. The 28-year-old, who was born in Zimbabwe, played 12 Tests for the Springboks - the last coming as a replacement in a 42-6 win over England at the end of 2008.

He admits, however, that as a black player in a predominantly white team, he soon realised he was only being picked to satisfy a racial quota system.

"We played against Scotland, Bismarck du Plessis got injured in the first minute and I played the rest of the match," he told the Daily Mail.

"We won, then our last Test of the tour was against England.

"On the Monday, I came down to breakfast and found out they had flown in Jannie du Plessis from South Africa. I thought, 'All right, he is here as cover', but in training Jannie was doing all the drills, then they announced the team and Jannie was starting. I felt really let down.

"South Africa pick guys because of their race, because they’ve got to have two or three black guys in the squad. It became clear I was one of those selections. I called my agent and said I wanted to leave."

The former Stormers and Lions front-rower flourished in England, and admitted he had a big desire to prove the Springbok selectors wrong.

"I wanted to play well and have them come and beg me to play for the Springboks again. It was a stupid thing to think!"

But the Springboks did request him to play for them again when he was offered a starting role for the 2011 Rugby World Cup in New Zealand.

However, his comeback was blocked by new rules which meant he needed a South African passport and, despite input from government ministers and the SARU’s best efforts, he was denied one.

"For me, that was the end of the road with the Springboks," added Mujati.

"Mentally, I had to give up on it. But in a way, knowing that they wanted me back was enough."

Mujati will leave Northampton at the end of the European season to join Top 14 club Racing Metro.

I think Mujati would have been a great asset for SA Rugby.   The problem is not rugby-related, but really related to his citizenship.   He never was an SA Citizen annd since he left SA in 2008 - he has not have residecy in SA and would under the circummstances not have qualified for citizenship.   Zimbabwe does not recognize dual citizenship and if he tok SA citizenship he would have to give up his citizenship of Zimbabwe - that may also have affcted his thinking.   Pity - but the situation remains - he cannot play for SA again unless he returns and live in SA long enough to qualify for citizenship.

That brings me to another question.   As far as I know Rhule is a Ghanian and one wonders if he could qaulify to play for SA.   However, it would not be possible without a change to his citiczenship and if he wants to become a Springbok - he will have to change citizenship as soon as legal (resindetial and others) requirements have been met. 

Bok rugby lost out on a great tighthead here. Its disgusting that he was overlooked for a player flown in to replace an injured player.

No wonder we lost him to Saints. One has to ask how the hell the coach that made that selection decision got the job in the first place. Who was the Bok coach in 2008?

Saffex

Obviously a hero of yours - he was just as dotty as you are with your selections - Pieter De Villiers

Nonsense snapster. Brian was very averge here and was a quota selection when first selected for the Boks. A very lazy player. He should have know he was a quota palyer and do the honourabl thing in declining the intial Bok call up. Have yet to see any quota player do that.

He went overseas and appears to have got his game together. However  SA players of even average ability seem to do well overseas so who knows but snapster!!!

However the powers that be believed the improvements in Brians play warranted a call up and so he was called up. However he did not have the paperwork so no go. I see nothing untoward here at all.

And yes there have been quota players selected for the Boks who should never have been - fact. Ditto coaches etc etc Its a real problem and puts us at a disadvantage competitively - ditto the economy etc etc.

I agree we lost a great prop, its a disgrace really. I respect Mujati for making a decision to leave due to his unhappiness. I believe he could've make a good contribution to the team. Fvck the system.

I am with Saffex on this one. Mujati will indeed be a great loss for Saints and he has been one of the key players at Northampton for a long time. He form/ed a formidable combination with Soane Tonga'uhia. I know that Moz has an opinion of him based on less than 120 min that he has seen him play, but I am going to put on some Saffex boots here and say that you are talking utter bullshit if you say that Mujati was dotty. What is true is that when he arrived at Northampton he was in a very poor state of fitness and conditioning after his spell at the WP/Stormers.

I would go as far as saying that his move to the Cape, at the time, was a step backwards, because he was playing some great rugby with the Lions. That was the reason why the WP used their strong-arm tactics again to get hold of him.

TBH, I don't think that you have watched many Premiership or European Cup games.

Lucid note wha windpomp says. he was out of condition and palying poorly for WP. Tha tis exaclty my view of him. Yet he got picked for the Boks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! F8ck the system indeed.

THen he goes over to the NH and it appears his play improves. This is noted and he gets a call up. This time possibly on merit. System here is working. However he dos not habve the papers and no help from Govt. No blame can  be placed on the rugby admin folk at all.

Had Mujati taken his chances at WP it may have been different. He didnt but lazed about letting himself down and his team. Fact is he had to know when first selected for the Boks he was a quota selection but that didnt stop him accepting. Then because he was a quota selection an injury led to Jannie being called up and leapfrogging the quota player. Now the quota player (who knows he is a quota player) is totally put out and says he doesnt want to be a quota player, very noble of him, and off he goes to the NH.

As i said when has a quota palyer ever refused selection - the honourable thing to do. Not once so Brian is not alone.

This to me smacks of massive hypocrisy. 

What a lot of rubbish!

All this could be avoided if only we picked ONLY on merit. When will we learn.

He was in a very poor state of fitness, both mentally and physically, when he arrived to play for us at Northampton. But, that changed when he adapted to the training regimes over here and the differences in the way we play the game. Mentally, he also got himself back together again.  He also formed quite a formidable partnership with Tongauiha and was actually the driving force behind the pack even though it was Tongauiha that got most of the plaudits.

He had very few injuries and was actually pretty brave when he did suffer some nasty knocks on the pitch, he didn't shirk and wasn't really the lazy player he had shown himself to be prior to coming to Northampton.

This Season, things have been a little different. Both his and Tongauiha's minds have been on leaving the club for pastures new and they are both heading for Racing Metro, for an awful lot of money. We will miss them, but I think it is probably the right time for them to move on and for us to get some new blood into the club.

I will say that all players, the world over, should only be picked on merit. There should be no other criteria whatsoever involved, in my opinion.

Ceradyne

I thought you are living in England and that you understand English.

I never said Mujati was a dotty selection.   I mettioned De Villiers and said that he and Saffex were both dotty when it comes to team selection - your assumption is totally idotic and wrong.

I saw Mujati playing in a number of games in England over the past two years and he actually played very well.   However, it appears from statements by others that he was not really producing the goods in SA and was in poor condition when he got to England.   Do not know about that myself.   However, I thought he started off playing for the Cheetahs?  My memory of him is a bit blurred though - so maybe I am wrong.   I know he moved to the Stormers - but was not a good buy by  them - can remember he ws very average and at times not in the starting line-up.   Was not really considered a big loss on his departure.

He was a poor buy and it was his Frans like attitude.

Clearly they managed to get him going better in England. That was noticed and he got a call up for the Boks. I really cant see in this instance what all the fuss is about apart from the fact he should never have been seleted for th Boks in the first instance. It is ONLY in his inital selection for the Boks that the quota issue surfaced and he accepted selection. Brian is being hypocritical methinks.

End of.

Janee Ou Maaik. You post a very vague statement that makes it appear that you are onto bashing somebody and that somebody could be anyone of Mujati, Saffex or PDV. This is what you said:

"Saffex

Obviously a hero of yours - he was just as dotty as you are with your selections - Pieter De Villiers"

If I misunderstood, then fine. Sorry. Having said that, you still find it difficult to agree that the player is actually of any good. Becs has close ties with Northampton Siants and has had them for 20+ years. Saffex follows the UK rugby even closer than myself. I know of only one person who thinks that he is useless.

As far as his career in SA goes, he first appeared on the scenes for the Lions and he made a hell of an impact on their scrums, around the same time that Heinke van der Merwe was palying for them, so I am surprised that you cannot remember that. He was then lured to the WP/Stormers amidst a hell of a war with the Lions who claimed that he started trainging with them and was included in their squad without being released by the Lions. They argued that he held a work permit that was arranged by and paid for by them. In the end the Stormers won because of some technicality, and due to the fact that the Lions decided that they were not going to take it any further, IIRC. By right they could have, because of the work permit. A work permit does not give you carte blanche to work anywhere for anybody. It is for a specific employer. Be that as it may, he started off with the Lions and ended up at the Stormers.

If he says that he felt like a quota player, I would not be surprised because many players of colour still experience it like that. Breyten Paulse has said that he felt like a quota player for many years. I disagree with that he should never have been selected for the Boks because he was producing the goods at the time, and I believe that at the moment he would still give any of our tightheads one hell of a run for his money and he is still young enough as well. He is after all only 28, which is not at old too old for a prop. You can rest assured though, because he will not play for SA again. I stand to be corrected, but I think he is a UK citizen now.

Windpomp, I trust you agree that his initial selection for the Boks was a quota selection? I too think Brian was poor for WP. Disappointing because I also agree he had done reasonably well for the Lions.

However once he had improved whilst in England he was called up for the Boks- seemed a meirt selection. Thereafter it was hardly the rugby guys fault the paperwork would not hapen? That was Government surely?

Brian crying quotas is not on for the reasons I gave. Your view?

No loss ... he was pretty average if you ask me.

Ceradyne

Thanks for the clarification - however, you still misunderstood what I said about Mujati by quoting the following:-

"I saw Mujati playing in a number of games in England over the past two years and he actually played very well. "

I do believe that he should have been in the Springbok set-up over the last two years at least - but the citizenship issue came in - I believe in 2009 - and that was the real reason for his exclusion.   He could not qualify for SA citizenship since he has not been resident here and he was working in England - that put pay to that one.   I hope he got British citizenship and could get away from Zimbabwe.

@Beeno. No, I do not agree that his selection was a quota selection at the time. I think he was among the best that we had. The tightheads at the time were him, CJ Van der Linde and BJ Botha. Twakkies eventually settled with John Smit at tighthead.

What many South Africans have against Mujati is the fact that he father was involved in a land grab in Zim, and the land in question belonged to a white Saffer.

He was their because of his skin colour.

No more ... no less.

BJ as well as CJ were better than him..

Ceradyne

I can remember that story about the land grab issue - it raised its head recently.   Are you sure it was Mujati and not Beast that was in question about that one?   I thought it was the latter - but maybe I am wrong about it.

Totally agree with Capone. After much prompting,I watched one of his Heineken semis, when he was carded. The Saints scrum was dominant before he was carded, it was more dominant after he was carded. After about 50 minutes he ran out of gas and the opposition, one of the Irish teams, actually established dominance. In the SH much faster game, this guy would have been  seriously challenged for stamina. And face it, in his 12 tests, did anybody see any evidence of great scrumming?

To me all this suggests is that the incident with van der Merwe was likely caused by the obvious chip he has on his shoulder.

@Mike.

@Mozart. If you still want to make a judgment on 50 minutes of play over a career of 3years+ at a club, you're most welcome.

The shoddy 50 minutes he played no doubt confirms what was clearly evident right from the onset.

Don't waste your time in trying to convince us that this Mujati was anything other than an average quota selection. 

He was one of many undeserving of Bok colours.

Racial prejudice.

I took Moz to task on his take on Mujati in that match against Heinke v/d Merwe. The Saints frontrow and scrum completely dominated the Irish side all game. Mujati gave Healey (Irish test loosehead) a lesson that day.

The only time the Saints scrum struggled was when one of their forwards got carded. Heinke v'/d Merwe was a sub and the Irish scrum caused the Saints scrum to pop as they were only scrumming with 7 players. Hardly a level playing field. Mujati's replacement that day was some nobody who is no longer playing for any club at present.

For those of us who actually saw Mujati play week after week, it was easy to conclude that he was a big loss to the Boks. The big square of a man was huge in the scrums. He was head and shoulders better than the likes of Jannie and CJ v/d Linde.

I would love to have seen a Bok frontrow of 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Mujati, with Bakkies and Matfield behind them - mouth watering stuff.

Mujati was a huge loss to Bok rugby considering how important a tighthead is. He was the best tighthead in the game a year or two ago.

I am still confused. Didnt Mujati become a Bok when playing for WP?

If that is so windpomp (and we both agree he was poor at that time) how can his selection to play for the Boks not be a quota selection?

Took Mozart to task???

Yeah right ... Like that has ever happened.

 Yeah Capcap, I merely pointed out that the only time Mujati and the Saints scrum struggled was when it was 8 against 7 - you do the maths you stupid prick

The Saints scrum was just as good when Mujati was off....you never saw him after minute 50. Those are facts.  I take Vlag's point, it was only one game. But his 12 tests do form a record, and a pretty mediocre one at that.

And why I ask, would PdV the diversity coach, not pick Mujati against the Poms and send for Jannie? A success with Mujati would have been a feather in his cap. Obviously he and I'm sure his other coaches felt Mujati was vulnerable.

Why I ask if Mujati was the best tighthead in the game would the Bok system not have gone to bat for him, the way they did for the Beast. Answer, none of the professionals were convinced he was test class.

This is a man with a chip on his shoulder, or is it a bad conscience?

Saffex

Why all the big argument about a theoretical issue.  Irrespective of whether he is the best prop ever - he cannot play for SA beause of his nationality.  That is it - there is nothing other than theory involved here.

How could the Saints scrum be better after Mujati left when it dominated the Irish side up to the point they had a foward carded. Mujati left as did a number of other forwards from both sides in the name of substitution. The dynamics of the scrums change after subs are introduced.

Mujati and Tonga were huge in the scrums up to the point they lost a player. They drove the Irish pack back with interest as they had been doing to all packs all season.

PDV was a complete idiot, using him as a reference is hardly going to cary weight. Mujati's game developed to the next level when he came over here. I thought he was damn good up to that point, but we never invested in him. Mujati did prove the Boks wrong as he was sought prior to the last WC and promised a starting spot for the Boks - why not as he was the best tighthead in the game then.

But the government stepped in and prevented Mujati playing for the Boks as he did not have a SA passport and was not resident in SA. It was an easy task with Beast as he has never left our shores.

Mujati was better than Jannie or CJ and there can be no doubting that at all.

Beeno1

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5375 RE: Mujati blames Quota system
April 24, 2013, 16:29:05

I am still confused. Didnt Mujati become a Bok when playing for WP?

If that is so windpomp (and we both agree he was poor at that time) how can his selection to play for the Boks not be a quota selection?

It is not strange to find ou Beenbal confused by something that a six year old would find easy to understand. Mujati left the Lions at the end of the 2007/2008 season, received his first cap for the test against Wales on 7 June 2008 and then joined the Stormers/WP at the start of the 2008/2009 season. That was when the deterioration stepped in to such an axtent that he was unfit and in poor condition when he arrived at Northampton.

 Why would you not want that in your frontrow

The Saints dominated with Mujati....he was yellow carded.....another Saint came on and they dominated the next few scrums.....Mujati came back.....the Irish made adjustments at the half after which they had the better of the Saints, with Mujati scrummimng. That's all I saw, and yes one or two of the Irish dominant scrums were with a short Saints pack. But then so were the Saints dominant scrums when Mujati had his yellow.

Why don't I want him? Because he never shone in the SH, which is my measuring stick. As for his whining about quotas, it's illogical as it  only benefited him. The charges of racism against his fellow Saffers and pushing the ref incident make him even less appealing to me.

No Moz, it was a looseforward that got carded. The only time the Saints scrum struggled was when they had 7 players.

In the first half, the Saints scrum were all over the Irish. 

Mujati never played against SH sides in his prime. He dominated all the NH test looseheads thrown his way. The Saints scrum for about 2 or 3 seasons completely dominated all comers. That had much to do with Mujati at 3, Hartley at 2 and Tonga at 1.

In those days, Mujati was far better than our Bok incumbents who were CJ v/d Linde, BJ Botha and later Jannie. Its too late for him now

mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3256 RE: Mujati blames Quota system
April 24, 2013, 18:35:10

Moz, you don't "want" him and it is in your right not to, but your argument is BS. You have already admitted numerous times that the only time you have watched him play was for about 50 minutes out of out of between 60 and 70 games that he has played in the NH. From that 50 minutes you can dedcut that he NEVER shone in the NH? I agree with Saffex that it is too late for him now, but only because current SARU policy prevents him from playing. Had he been able to play for SA again right now, he would be one hell of a benefit for SA. You can jump up and down about those fifty minutes as much as you like. You know nothing of his game and capabilities. Zilch.

I might sound like a hell of a Mujati fanboy, but that is far from the truth. I don't know where Mike got the article that he posted and if it is only part of an entire article or what, but it contains parts that corresponds with this this one. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2311854/Brian-Mujati-play-game-Northampton-Saints-weekend.html

Even if you do not like him or do not want him, I owuld suggest you read it (Beeno) as well. It gives you some insight into his road to the Bok team, his father's land-grab, and his eventual journey to Northampton. He also mentions and admits msitakes he made and silly things he said.

What you guys are asking us to believe is:

Mujati was wrongly treated in his Bok career, was justified in going to England for that reason.

That in England he developed into the world's best tighthead. That SA rugby, notwithstanding great tightheads are like diamonds, foolishly ignore him.

That he was still being targeted by Saffas playing overseas.

In short that he is a victim and a great guy. Well, I'm sorry we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not buying any of it.

I cannot speak for the rest of "you guys" but I can say that you are as wrong about what I am asking you to believe as you are wrong about Mujati's abilities. The only thing that I really want you to believe is that you believe me when I say that he is a top class player. I have never said the best in the world.

"Mujati was wrongly treated in his Bok career, was justified in going to England for that reason."  Not at all. I am only conveying what he has said about what has happened and what has left him disappointed at the time.

"That in England he developed into the world's best tighthead. That SA rugby, notwithstanding great tightheads are like diamonds, foolishly ignore him." Wrong on this one as well. He made his choice and he decided to leave. When they eventually discovered that they might need him, it was too late because the door was shut. Fact is that the door was shut because of the politicians' constant hunt on the Springbok. Many past Springboks weren't SA Citizens either. As far as his development is concerned, of course he developed further in England. That is no secret. It did actually happen and only a fool would argue otherwise because all the facts prove otherwise.

"That he was still being targeted by Saffas playing overseas." Where does that come from?

"In short that he is a victim and a great guy. Well, I'm sorry we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not buying any of it." Nobody said that he was a victim of anything, so there is nothing there to disagree about.

The only thing that I am saying about Mujati is that he is a good player and that he would, in all possibilty give all of his "SA opponents" a hell of a hard time. Unfortunately that can probably not be proven. What can be proven is that he is highly rated in the NH.

Excuse excuses Brian! 

He was in competition with the likes of John Smit , Guthrow Steenkamp , Tendai Mtawrira  and a younger Jannie du plesis. There was also the difficult situation of having both John Smit and Bismark on the field at the same time.

Mujati has with age matured into a respected prop in the UK. 

In 2007-2008  he was good ..but unfortunately for him there were at least 3-4 props Beter than him.

"Still being targeted by SA players" comes from his accusation of racism, levelled at Heinke. This guy comes from a family that stole people's lives. But was still welcomed in SA rugby. Was promoted quickly to the Bok team and given 12 chances to play internationally.

Then decided all on his lonesome to quit SA rugby because Jannie was picked to play against the Poms. His objective became to basically humiliate SA rugby into calling on him. I'm sorry but I find all of this pretty despicable. I know that's old school, but that's the way I feel.

As for his ability as a rugby player, you are in a better position to judge. All I can say is, in the match I watched, he looked a lot like the old Mujati.

mrdebbs

Status: Baby Bok
Posts: 37 RE: Mujati blames Quota system
April 24, 2013, 21:30:22

Excuse excuses Brian! 

He was in competition with the likes of John Smit , Guthrow Steenkamp , Tendai Mtawrira  and a younger Jannie du plesis. There was also the difficult situation of having both John Smit and Bismark on the field at the same time.

Mujati has with age matured into a respected prop in the UK. 

In 2007-2008  he was good ..but unfortunately for him there were at least 3-4 props Beter than him.

Oopsie.

Mujati was not in competiton with Steenkamp or Beast. He is a tighthead. In fact, Steenkamp was Mujati's prop partner on the other side of the scrum in his debut test against Wales in June 2008.  Fail 1.

John Smit was moved to tighthead by PDV to accommodate both him and Bismarck, like you have said, but apart from that, Smit took over from Mujati, after Mujati joined Northampton at the start of the European 2009/10 rugby season. Fail 2.

Mujati is younger that Jannie du Plessis. Fail 3.

 Bottom line, he is not from South Africa so representing the boks was not the biggest thing for him. Case closed

mozart

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 3258 RE: Mujati blames Quota system
April 24, 2013, 21:49:10

"Still being targeted by SA players" comes from his accusation of racism, levelled at Heinke. This guy comes from a family that stole people's lives. You have obviouxly not paid attention when you read the article. maybe you should read the part about him and hos father again. But was still welcomed in SA rugby. Was promoted quickly to the Bok team and given 12 chances to play internationally. He was not promoted quickly. He started his career with the Lions at the beginning of 2006 and got his Bok cap 2 1/2 years later. Many others have achieved that much sooner.

Then decided all on his lonesome to quit SA rugby because Jannie was picked to play against the Poms. His objective became to basically humiliate SA rugby into calling on him. I'm sorry but I find all of this pretty despicable. He has obviously done some introspection and realised that it was a stupid aproach. He has acknowledged it himself, after all. He was a 24 years old at the time. (When he settled on joining the Saints, he had a clear agenda. ‘I wanted to play well and have them come and beg me to play for the Springboks again,’ he added. ‘It was a stupid thing to think!’) I know that's old school, but that's the way I feel.

As for his ability as a rugby player, you are in a better position to judge. All I can say is, in the match I watched, he looked a lot like the old Mujati. Cool. So you accept that you cannot judge his abilities based on 50 minutes of play, compared to his play in 65 games?