My backline for the record...

Willie, Senatla, Rohan, Frans, Habana, Pollard, Faf.

  Fat Fransie - the worst defending and attacking center in Super Rugby for two years running.    What do you expect would change him to a level where players just run past him because I believe nothing will.   Bad news that one.         

Sure Tokkie....who was your inside centre again?  

 Fat Fransie would be about 1 0th on my list of inside centers.   I would play Van Rensburg at inside center and either De Allende, Kriel or Vorster at 13.   Before selecting Fat Fransie I would rather consider a string of other players who are better than him in all aspects of the game.  

 Habana is past his best by about 5 years ... we have better in Skosan, Ulengo and Koch Marx. Besides that we need to build for the coming WC. He's taking up a spot that could be better used to expose one of our talented youngsters to test match rugby. 
Willie is not test material. He's inconsistent and hasn't seen any decent form for the last two seasons. He's a retreaded wing. The skill set at 15 eludes him. Gelant and Sylvian Mahuza are far better options.  
Rohan made his mark at 12. Play him there. I see you moved him out one to make room for Fat Fransie. He's not worth playing a man out of position.  
Fat Fransie doesn't have the intellect to play at 12. He doesn't distribute and is easily stripped when taken to ground. His only desire is to slot drop shots from all over the park. He's a loose cannon. Besides that we have better in Venter, Vorster and Hugh Jones.
Pollard is probably better than Jantjies but cracks easily under pressure. I don't have that big an issue with him as our options at 10 are limited. My man would be Lambie without a second thought.     Did you forget about Combrinck or is he no longer an option?


 

 Hey CC,
Sorry to rain on your parade but Huw Jones has already been capped by Scotland. 
Shame that as he is having a great season.
 Can you imagine the grief though of playing a non POC who's not even a Saffa?

Okay let me be serious for a second. 
I select Faf because he has heart, reasonable technical skills and great rugby instincts, as we saw when he saved the Irish series. He had a poor game against NZ and made some school boy mistakes. But 4 years from now he could be a rounded, effective scrumhalf.

Pollard has one element that our other 10s don't have......competitiveness. Same as Barrett, Pollard has been a competitor from the second he stepped onto the international scene. 
I select Frans and Rohan as our two centres because they are both powerful players. Rohan is no better defensively than Frans.....his stats in the Super 18 were quite poor. But critically they prevent the offload, the thing that has been breaking our defence down. If we had a decent 13 option I'd be happy to select one......Rohan's strong running or Frans' boot and long pass. But I see no test caliber 13s, certainly not Vorster.
On the wing Habana is still effective, because he sees the opportunity. But we need a new gas man. The Boks are counter attackers and best when we have some express pace. Senatla could provide that. I have no problem with Combrink, if we solve 13 and choose Rohan over Frans I would tend to include Combrink as a long range kicker and sound line kicker.
Willie has been given the job of igniting a non functioning attack. Let him play a more conventional fullback role with occasional attacking interludes. He is our best 15 under the high ball and won't bottle out like Goosen,

Perhaps new options will emerge...hopefully at 13. But I would be comfortable with those players, not a wimp among them.

 Van Rensburg's stats in Super 18 was 'QUITE POOR"  Are you kidding all of us or are your objective is to distort the truth.   Fact is he was excellent.   On the other hand Fat Fransie was piss-poor in all of the 2014 and 2014 seasons.  He was so bad the Sharks did not renew his contract with them - and so did SARU.    The only franchise that might consider him is the Kings and it is a big MIGHT.   Fact is Fat Fransie lost all after a promising start - since 2012 he was piss poor and not e ven Meyer would consider him for selection.     

 His defensive stats uber moron.....try to understand context Ou Tokkie.

 Here is my backline with optional in brackets:
Gelant (Mahuza), Senatla, De Allende (Kriel), Voster , Marx (Habana), Pollard (Lambie),  Faf.

Time to bite the bullet and build up the younger players for international duty.
Also, who would u guys select to replace Strauss as skipper?
Cheers.

 His defensive stats were star quality compared to those of Fat Fransie - who competed with De Jongh to have the worst defensive stats in Super Rugby,

 Well produce them you seem to have all the details. I say you are lying again.

 The defense stats for Fat Fransie for the 2014  ad 2015 seasons were consistently set at a 26,14 missed tackle ratio.   That was set down on this site - proving that he was worse than De Allende after the latter came under attack by you for being a poor defender,   You went ballistic when this was pointed out on this site - but could not dispute the result.   So check back and you would find that discussion.
What you did not deal with is the record held by Steyn of 32 possession losses by Fat Fransie in Super 15 in 2014 - this has never been equaled by any SA backline player in   Super Rugby. 
Fact is that Van Rensburg showed serious punch in the backline - something Fat Fransie did not.   In 2014 and 2015 seasons Fat Fransie in two years of Super Rugby made 4 line breaks beating 17 defenders.   That also presented the worst figures in respect of any SA center in Super 15.   In 2014 De Allende made 27 line breaks beating 73 defenders,  
The above issues were repeatedly discussed on this site when you were punting Fat Fransie previously.  They were mentioned and you could not dispute it at the time - so the lying allegation is another junk comment by you when you were cornered.       So you want the useless Fat Fransie in the Springbok team - what a joke.   Your putrid defense of the poor performance record was that Fat Fransie's stats does not represent his true value as a player - which says it all.           

 Willie is a liability, he's caused us too much grief with his pap boot and option taking....I wouldn't pick him in a fit. It's time to move on from the players of the past, this being the start of a new cycle it would be far better building for the future in players who are going to be there in 3 years time. On the flip side we need a coach who can make the right selections and then to shape the players and team, unfortunately we don't have that coach. I think Coetzee stuffed up bigtime by not selecting Janse Van Rensburg going forward and stuffed again up by sticking with Strauss for the remaining dead rubbers.

 Tokkie this may seem rude , but I never believe anything you say....cut and paste the relevant statistical data from an official source.

  It came from ESPN and I have posted it on this site when you prate about Fat Fransie previously.   I am not going to do another summary of it - because when it was reflected on the site previously - you said that the Stats of Fat Fransie do not reflect his true value in the team.   
You are such a good user of previous postings when it when it fits your book, but in this case it does not - so the only alternative you have is to fall back on your normal BS.    

  It came from ESPN and I have posted it on this site when you prate about Fat Fransie previously.   I am not going to do another summary of it - because when it was reflected on the site previously - you said that the Stats of Fat Fransie do not reflect his true value in the team.   
You are such a good user of previous postings when it when it fits your book, but in this case it does not - so the only alternative you have is to fall back on your normal BS.    

Stop whining,  just the cut and paste and don't expect me to do your research for you Tokkie.

You are the cut and paste specialist here - not me.  But if I go to the trouble of finding it and put it on site you will still not change your deluded mind.  So why bother - an Idiot will never change his mind.

In 2014 De Allende made 27 line breaks beating 73 defenders,  

That's 2015.
Incidentally, Juan de Jongh, who you constantly denigrate as a poor defender, had a better tackle success rate than De Allende in the 2015 Super Rugby. 80% to 77.6%. In 2016 they're about even with 81.5% vs 80.3%, so I think you at least owe De Jongh an apology for always telling us how useless he is on defense. 
He has better tackle success than Janse van Rensburg and Vorster.
Janse van Rensburg: 73.4% in 2016.Vorster:78.2% tackle success in 2015.

Francois Steyn: 2013 - 81.4%. 2014 - 77.7%. 2015 - 73.8%. 
Steyn's worst tackle success in his last three years of SR is still better than Janse van Rensburg's. 
Another assertion from CC:
Fat Fransie doesn't have the intellect to play at 12. He doesn't distribute and is easily stripped when taken to ground.

Frans made the most passes/offloads by any SA midfielder in the 2014 SR season at 143/19. De Allende made 48/13. Serfontein 64/10. I'll concede to CC the "easily stripped" assertion as Steyn does get a lot of turnovers against his name - an unhealthy 36 in 2014 (De Allende 19, Serfontein 18).
The stats do show that Steyn's performance in his 7 games in 2015 was poor. 

For meters and defenders beaten De Allende is the king in Super Rugby for South African players by quite a margin, in 2015 in particular. In 2016 Janse van Rensburg left him in the dust with 6m per carry vs 3.5m per carry.
And that's the stats for the day. Lots of fun to be had with numbers, but it matters little if it doesn't translate into performance at test level.

 Pakie there are too many cases where Fat Fransie died with the ball when crashballing.  In the Hurricanes game in 2014 he passed the ball 5 times - never once to the outside center and four passes went to forwards and the other to the full back.   Too many times he made aimless kicks - and his attacking play was basically non-existent.  
De Jongh is a weak tackler and allows players to off-load balls,.  He also often duck out of more difficult tackles  and leave it to other players.     
By the way Fat Fransie was no better in 2014 than he was in 2015.   He was a mess since he returned from France - grossly overweight and slow.
Fat Fransie always had a defense problem.  In the WC final in 2007 he missed four tackles and that did not improve with years to come.   He never had better defense stats than De Allende and the total absence in attacking play ability is what makes him totally unacceptable as a player on test level.   

 Pakie there are too many cases where Fat Fransie died with the ball when crashballing.  In the Hurricanes game in 2014 he passed the ball 5 times - never once to the outside center and four passes went to forwards and the other to the full back.   Too many times he made aimless kicks - and his attacking play was basically non-existent.  
De Jongh is a weak tackler and allows players to off-load balls,.  He also often duck out of more difficult tackles  and leave it to other players.     
By the way Fat Fransie was no better in 2014 than he was in 2015.   He was a mess since he returned from France - grossly overweight and slow.
Fat Fransie always had a defense problem.  In the WC final in 2007 he missed four tackles and that did not improve with years to come.   He never had better defense stats than De Allende and the total absence in attacking play ability is what makes him totally unacceptable as a player on test level.   

Keep in mind that De Allende's test tackle success is only 65%. That's abysmal. His actual influence on attack is also declining - even in Super Rugby. From 5.6m per carry in 2014 to 5.1m per carry in 2015 down to 3.5m in 2016. From 4.7 defenders beaten per game in 2015 to 2.6 per game in 2016.
And while you are still denigrating De Jongh: he, De Allende and Leyds were the only three SA players who made the Super Rugby top 10 for clean breaks in 2015. He also made 3.6m per carry in 2016 against De Allende's 3.5m. The numbers just don't support your vitriol against the guy.

 The 13 channel is the toughest channel to defend in rugby and so it begs the question. Why would you deliberately choose to give one of the weakest defenders in Super Rugby (in your opinion) the 13 jersey??
Have you not learnt from JJ and Kriel?  
To top that you want to have one even worse than Rohan defensively on his inside??
Aren't you supposedly the boards guru on defensive structures? You had lots to say about De Jongh and what he brought to the mix. 
Funny ... I don't see his name mentioned anywhere in your post.
Long range kicking is not a priority one should ever consider. Especially not if the long rang kicker brings an assortment of negative baggage with him. Frans Steyn's inclusion just for the possibility of a successful drop goal from his own 22 is most certainly not  worth all the other trouble he brings to the park. I realise you think of him as a rugby god ... I on the other hand think of him as gawd damn awful.
We all have a competitive spirit in us ... which means squat if we don't have the necessary nerve to see it through to fruition. As I said, Pollard is one of the better options out there, second to Lambie. He would be fine if used as cover from the bench. He can always challenge Lambie for the right to take the 10 jersey. There is no way I would promote him over the talented Pat. 
Habana is done. He has no passion, no fire and has not only lost his hunger but a lot of his pace too . We do not need yet another old man merely going through his paces. We need some one hungry and driven ... one out to make a name for himself. 

"Perhaps new options will emerge...hopefully at 13. But I would be comfortable with those players, not a wimp among them."
I find your last comment rather interesting ... hence my question. Suppose for a moment we found your dream outside centre ... would that mean you'd discard Rohan Janse van Rensburg to the dump all the while retaining Fat Fransie at 12?
 

 Pakie ... I see you and Ceradyne like to analyse other posters opinions ... all the while never producing a team of your own.
Please be so kind as to let us have you Bok team by return post.
I'm still waiting for the loudmouth Ceradyne's contribution.
Thanks a lot.


  

 Xavi ... thanks man. I didn't know that.
Sad to hear that. 
Would have been nice to throw his name into the mix.
Impressive player. 

 Cerudunce windpomp if you do let us have your backline please limit yourself to ten pages!
Here is mine:
Faf and Pollard
Rohan, KrielUlengo, Combrink, Willie
Reserves:Van zyl, Lambie and Allende.
You can't improve much on that. despite bleatings from wee cc the dunce  willie remains our best 15. my backline has everything. all it needs is a correctly con figured pack and a decent coaching staff.  Its a young backline and will be ready for next RWC. trouble is we are wasting our time as the best will not be picked.

 Not a bad backline Beeno1, few tweaks and you're there.
Mine:
Faf           Pollard
Ulengo                                              Rohan                                                      Vorster                                                                       Combrink                                     Gelant
Bench: Groom/Paige, Kriel/ Odendaal, Lambie. Happy to rotate Kriel and Vorster. 

Would like to see Sergel aswell but can't have a 4/4 split.

CC: We have problem positions where I really don't have any picks I'm comfortable with. 6,7,12,13,15. Jaco Kriel hasn't convinced me at test level. Matter of fact he has looked out of his depth so far. But I'd like to see him get a full game so he can be in it from the start. Apart from Kirsten of the Bulls I can't think of any genuine 7 who has put his hand up. This is as close as I can get to a side from what's available.
1. Beast2. Marx3. Koch/Whoever4. Etzebeth5. Du Toit
6. Kriel7. Louw8. Whiteley9. Faf10. Pollard11. Habana/Ulengo12. Rohan JvR13. De Jongh/Mapoe (I'd like to see Mapoe again next to Rohan before writing him off. Mapoe is an intelligent player who can feed well off a strong runner and offloader on his inside)14. Combrinck15. Lambie/Willie and perhaps even give Gelant a go.

 Xavi ... yes, yes, yesssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!
That's more like it. I like your starting backline. Prefer Lambie at 10 but Pollard will do just fine, especially if we have a dominant pack. 
They are all powerful men ... strong on their feet ... won't go to ground easily ... have tremendous upper body strength ... big chunky legs ... great pace ... will get us go forward at will ... getting us across the advantage line far easier than the current lot ... and are all defensively sound.

Another man that I rate highly is Koch Marx. He too is like a Vorster and Janse van Rensburg. Big, strong and with pace. 
I also rate Odendaal and must say I was rather impressed with Paige's feed yesterday. He needs to be given another shot.  
Not the biggest Kriel fan but would consider him as cover for 15.
 

 Pakie ... not a bad side. 
Not sure why you'd go for Beast though. We saw what a difference Kitshoff made in the second half ... besides that we have better in Marais and Dylan Smith. 
Also, I don't rate De Jongh at all. Much prefer the likes of Mapoe over him who I thought had one of his better showings yesterday.
I see you have chalked up Lambie as a possible 15. Must say I'm rather surprised that you would even consider him. I've seen posts of yours where you slag him off as talentless ... not test material.  

 Mozart ... can I expect a response soon or would you rather we not discuss it any longer??
Your call.

I don't think I've ever called Lambie (or any other player for that matter) talentless, CC. I don't see anything special in him as a flyhalf, that's all. I know you disagree and that's fine. 
As for De Jongh, he's a better 13 than 12, but again, it's a problem position. We don't have any clear answers there. I think De Jongh has a much better sense for the position than Kriel for example. Mapoe will do as well.
Props are tough for me, I don't consider myself very knowledgeable in scrum matters. One game a guy looks good, the next game he gets his @ss handed to him. So, whoever. 

 My mistake. Perhaps I've confused you with another.
What did you think of his contribution at 15 yesterday? Nothing special, huh!!? That's cause he's not a 15. 
As far as I'm concerned he should either be selected at 10 or not at all.
Just another fool of a coach trying to turn him into a jack of all trades. Lambie has never been given a fair shake. Meyer disrespected him and it seems it's continuing under Coetzee. We saw that when he was moved to wing to make place for Willie who just so happens to be a better wing than full back. 
It's annoying.
Haaaaahahaahaaa!!
I see. Well as you know it all starts up front so a "whomever" isn't really the right approach to have. I'm sure you agree.
We have to dominate our set piece and throwing a Werner Kruger or a Coenie in will cost us dearly. Everything spills over from there.
It puts pressure on our half backs and generally sees the entire team drop their heads in defeat when they see their pack dominated. 
The Lions were cleaning the Jaguares up till they started losing the scrum set piece. Everything went south from there on. 
Beast in my opinion has always been iffie. His short comings are blatantly obvious whenever he's replaced. 
I would start off with Kitshoff and bring on the powerful Dylan Smith later. 
I guess each to his own 

 Wasn't Dylan Smith the chap Adriaanse destroyed on Friday.....just asking because I never saw the match, but that seemed to be the drift of thing......drift, drift, drift.

 Wise of you to concede, Mozart.
Must say I'm becoming a little bored with constantly bending you over my knee. 
Try to up your game a tad will ya.

Give Lambie a bit of a break, he had something like 20 minutes of rugby since the Ireland test before Saturday's test if I heard correctly. He did okay. I have nothing against him as a player, he has good skills, tackles well and puts in an honest effort. I just don't see him as a dominant flyhalf. 
Yep, I agree the front rows are important. I remember another example of how it went south for the Boks in a test against (I think) Australia in the Meyer era when he substituted the whole front row early in the second half. I'm just not going to pretend though that I'm any sort of expert on scrumming or props, because I'm not. 

 You guys must be completely mental in this forum...not in one SINGLE post have I seen the names "Venter" or "Lee"...and by that I mean the FREE STATE CHEETAHS CENTER COMBINATION.

What the hell? Have you even seen them play? They have heart, amazing skills, not to mention true passion for the game and score butt loads of tries. It would be the perfect pair for the Springboks...combinations are crucial, and those two would give their heart and soul to play for their country.

BUT no...no no no. Let's give the jersey to:
- Kriel (who's not even  a center)
- De Jongh (way past his time and predictable)
- De Allende (unfortunately his injury really took a tole, real shame)

I mean, Nico Lee at 12 with François Venter at 13, the excitement levels would go through the roof! For the second half, Van Rensburg would be the "Barret factor", our impact player.

And since we're talking about DESERVING Springboks, why does no one mentions Rhaymond Rhule, the form winger this season? That man has insane skills and fills out some of the quotas! If you want a colored player, he's simply amazing for the job. That way we could drop Paige and bring in either PVZ (permanently) and Shaun Venter from the Cheetahs.

And who the f*** is Ulengo anyway? He must be good for Currie Cup, but test level???

You can play or juggle around players as much as you like...the problem WONT GO AWAY...somehow by some sense (if any is left or by some miracle prevails) Johan Ackerman must be brought in to run the ship or it will sink...then a side like this to start the ball rolling :

15.WW Gelant/Willie Le Roux
14.Ruan Combrinck
13.Lionel Mapoe
!2.Rohan Janse Van Rensburg
11.Raymond Rhule/Jamba Ulengo
10.Patrick Lambie
9. Faf De Klerk
8.Warren Whiteley
7.Warwick Tecklenburg
6.Jaco Kriel
5.PSDT
4.Eben Etzebeth
3.Vincent Koch
2.Malcolm Marx
1.Beast Mtawarira

...en dan sal die poppe begin te danse soos Raspu tin, ne

 N ice combination!