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My squad for the end of year tour

Started by Beeno141 REPLIES561 VIEWS· 23 Oct 2013, 10:12
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 10:12
#1
23 Oct 2013, 10:12#1

Hard choices here and really some other players one could very well pick.Some injured players are possibly not ready. This team is based purely on merit and no other rubbish criteria.


But how about this squad:

Beast, Kitshoff, Coenie, Jannie

Bissie, Stauss,

Etzebeth, Du Toit, Flip, Willemse

Louw , Deon Fourie, Vermuelen, Alberts, Burger

Kockott, Du Preez, Reinach

Morne, Lambie

Jean, Jan, JJ, Allende

Habana. JP, Willie

Aplon, Steyn, M Boschoff



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 10:45
#2
23 Oct 2013, 10:45#2

 Beeno

 

Nice squad with serious deficiency problems.  The line out problems will continue without a reliable third line out option.   Steyn showed zilch thus far and neither did Burger - they should prove through performance that they are up to standard in next years Super 15 - reputation selection is an abomination in any event.   Why take them along as passengers - it could cause serious embarrassment  in team selection - like happened last year.  SP Marais is better than Boshoff.  Fourie is good - but a real penalty liability at the best of times and he has a comparatively low tackle ratio.   Another habitual card candidate is Willemse.

 

And you still have to carry non-performers in that squad like Steyn and Alberts.   The latter only performs about 10% of what is expected of a loosie.   Why not include Malherbe s a loosie rather than Alberts - he would do a better job there than the clumsy and slow Alberts does .     

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 Oct 2013, 10:50
#3
23 Oct 2013, 10:50#3
 Always a joy to watch Willie Le Roux and Eben.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:00
#4
23 Oct 2013, 11:00#4
Nothing wrong with the lineout with Etzebeth, Du Toit and Vermuelen and Burger. A lose trio of Fourie, Vermuelen and Louw has sufficient pace. Alberts did well last year on the tour.
SP Marais makes a lot of errors. Boshoff doesnt and he is a very good all round player and covers flyhalf as well. Deon also is your extra hooker if needs be. Deon like any 6 gives away penaties but he adds great value. WP players player of the year. A must have.

Malherbe has hardly played no different from Burger and Steyn. We can have last look at these guys on the week end. You, as always, overstat your case re Morne. He is a good flyhalf. By all means start with Lambie but have the exprienced Morne as a back up.
I dont think Burger will be a passenger. There is no other player on the planet with Burgers natural stamina. I wouldnt be surprised to see him up the ante this week end.

Dont allow your prejuduce to blind you ou maaaike! 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:31
#5
23 Oct 2013, 11:31#5
 
Props Beast
Trevor
Malherbe
Jannie

Hooker Bismarck The Incredible
Strauss

Locks Eben
Du Toit
Flip
Willemse

Loosies Vermeulen
Engelbrecht
Kriel
Labuschagne
Minnie
Brussow

Scrummies Kockott
du Preez
Pretorius

Flyhalf Lambie
Goosen

Centers Jean
Serfontein
De Allende
Ebersohn

Wings Habana
Le Roux
JP

Full Back Boshoff
Aplon

Match 23



1 Beast 2 Bismarck The Amazing
3 Malherbe 4 Eben 5 Du Toit 6 Minnie 7 Labuschagne 8 Vermeulen 9 Kockott 10 Lambie 11 Habana 12 Jean (cpt) 13 Serfontein 14 Willie 15 Aplon

16 Adriaan 17 Trevor 18 Jannie 19 Willemse 20 Engelbrecht 21 Du Preez 22 Goosen 23 JP
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:31
#6
23 Oct 2013, 11:31#6

Beeno

 

I have serious reservations about Burger and Francois Steyn.  Burger came off the bench for two matches and in both cases showed nothing as a player.   Matter of fact all that became clear is that he is not matchfit and should be evaluated to see whether he is selectable - which should be the case  based on Super 15 next year.   The same should be applied to Francois Steyn.   Elsewhere you said that performance is the key to selection - yet here you deny it by going for Steyn and Burger.   Both should only be considered after showing that they still belong during Super 15 next year.

 

I am not prejudiced ever and I do look at all aspects of play - the only notable thing Burger did in his last match was to miss a crucial tackle before the Lions scored a try - for the rest he did precious little since his return.   Incidentally after I pointed out that missed tackle on the request of Mozart - he went quiet on the Burger issue.

 

I also do not buy your comment on Labuschagne - the rest period of one month between the semi and the first test is sufficient to give him ample time to recover from a very long season of playing continuously week after week.

 

Marais makes errors in poor playing conditions - because he involves himself more than Boshoff in actual play and his errors occurred in very poor playing conditions.   He has had a long season of Super 15 play for the Kings where he really was a standout player.   He also is a player in the mould of Willie le Roux - so he is much more dangerous player and together with le Roux will be awesome in attacking play.

 

Lastly - I have serious reservatrions about whether any of Morne Steyn, Alberts, Burger and Francois Steyn would be in the run for selection to the WC squad for 2015 and that raises the issue of whether they should go on tour now  with only two further series to blood new players if necessary.   If Burger and Steyn are to be candidates for 2015 - they would have an opportunity in Super 15 next year to prove that they belong - but Morne Seyn and Alberts have been promoted above their level of competence and should be discarded asap.    

 

  

 

  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:46
#7
23 Oct 2013, 11:46#7

Cleancut

 

I only have minor problems with your squad and team selections - and those relate to the following:-

 

*  Easy one - Du Preez nd Brussow are not available for the EOYT;

 

*  Willemse has the bulk - but his main ambition in life seems to be to collect cards and penalties - must get his mind right before he becomes known as the second Flip van der Merwe; 

 

*  Kriel is good on CC lpevel - but I would like to see first how he progresses on Super 15 level - a jump up from CC to tests is huge and he must wait for a while in my opinion.

 

*   Serfontein is still on a learning curve and to my mind not speedy enough at 13.  I would rather play the stronger De Allende than Serfontein at this stage - although Saffex will have a fit because of that statement and because you are leaving out his favourite Engelbrecht completely.  

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:54
#8
23 Oct 2013, 11:54#8
 
Let's see your squad, Mike.


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 11:57
#9
23 Oct 2013, 11:57#9
 Mike I did say there were concerns around Burger and Steyn  and that the final may resolve those and that those closest to the players would have to assess matters. This applies also to Malherbe.Goosen should not go. Why risk it. Man the doctors are telling him not to play yet!
CC yours is an interesting side. I have no problem re the tight five apart from whether Malherbe is ready and possibly having two very young locks playing -start with Flip and bring Du Toit off bench. Minnie and Labuschagne are knocking on the door. Do we need another big loosi e - Alberts/Elstadt/ Rhodes. Remember we are not playing the pap abs - NH packs are physical and need to be matched.Personally I see Aplon as a super sub who you give 30 minutes to.Trevor - no ways this guy has gone backwards badly.Other possibility is JJ at 13 or on the wing. Willie at 15.Unfortunately we still, largely because of injuries and the rise of young players, do not have a very settled test side. Some experimentation/sifting still has to take placeHowever the quality of the squad is improving all the time.


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 12:07
#10
23 Oct 2013, 12:07#10
 hakwa a superb tackler is worth watching eg Bissie.
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 12:09
#11
23 Oct 2013, 12:09#11
 CleanCut, all jokes aside. One of the better teams I have seen mentioned by any blogger in my time here.
In terms of the loosies, I dont know if I could look past Louw right now but I suppose you gain massive heart with Minnie. He wont stop trying thats for sure.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 12:15
#12
23 Oct 2013, 12:15#12

I posted my side earlier and it is as follows:-

 

 

Full backs  :   SP Marais, Marnitz Boshoff

 

Wings       :   Brian Habana, JP Pietersen, Willie le Roux

 

Centers     :   Jean de Villiers, JJ Engelbrecht, Jan Serfontein, Damian de Allende

 

Flyhalfs     :   Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

 

Scrummies :  Ruan Pienaar, Cobus Reinach, Louis Schreuder

 

Loosies      :   Duane Vermeulen, Francois Louw, Lappies Labuschagne, Siya Kolisi

 

Locks         :  Eben Etzebeth, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Flip van der Merwe, Lood de Jager

 

Props         :   Tendai Mtawarire, Stephen Kitshoff, Frans Malherbe, Jannie du Plessis,

 

Hookers     :   Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Deon Fourie

 

I left out Francois Steyn - not matchfit and will have to see how he develops next Super 15, Taute - out with injury - but a possible full back next year, Arno Botha - definite loosie next year and Schalk Burger - possible next year with due regard to Super 15 performance.

 

Players to be phased out next year are Ruan Pienaar, Flip van der Merwe and Jannie du Plessis.  matter of fact I would not mind if Pienaar is replaced by Cockkott in the E OYT squad already.

 

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 12:33
#13
23 Oct 2013, 12:33#13
 ou maaaikie you squad has serious deficiencies and you are also contradicting yourself.You include Malherbe who has had less time on the field than Burger. Granted the injury guys are hard to assess.You pick complete weak links like Kolisi. Schreuder has not shown anything to suggest he is international quality. I say this as a WP man.You have two totally inexperienced fullbacks. You also pick Goosen who the doctors are saying should not be playing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you and CC want to ruin this guy? Why take the risk. We have Morne, Lambie and Cat. Goosen really must not get injured again. He must use the time to work on his conditioning.
Scrum halves - well only Reinach should be there - he has the x factor. Then Kockott has to make it if merit is the criteria. Then I would take Du Preez along to mentor the guys and play as well.



HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 Oct 2013, 12:44
#14
23 Oct 2013, 12:44#14
hope you boys don't tone it down and refer back to your notorious bad habits when you go up North - We don't want u lot making us look bad 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:02
#15
23 Oct 2013, 13:02#15
 Hakwa you must try and put up so sort of show against the poms lest Becs is all over us like a rash. We could also have the queen giving us the finger Last time round it was bad as the abs were hammered 

Only the M ighty Boks were undefeated 
You getting the picture hakwa?
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:09
#16
23 Oct 2013, 13:09#16
 I am beginning to suspect Suzie is half English 
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#17
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#17
 Props: Beast, Jannie, Kitshoff, Herbst
Hookers: Bizzy, Strauss
Locks: Etzebeth, PSDT, Alberts, Bekker
Loosies: Vermuelen, Louw, Fourie, Kriel, Minnie
Scrummies: Kockott, Du Preez, McCleod
Fly half: Lambie, Catrakilis
Centres: Jean, Jacque, Serfontein, Steyn
Wings: Habana, Willie, JP, JJ
Fullbacks: Aplon, Marais
28 man squad. Steyn goes to stay in the Bok environment and get back to his best. JJ selected as a wing only. JP to start at fullback with Aplon covering fullback and wing from the bench. Marais goes as an option if it goes pair but initially just to learn the in's and outs of Bok rugby.No space for Morne. I dont care how "inexperienced" the flyhalves are, I dont have space in my team for guys that are shit scared to tackle. Its unacceptable. Lambie has been around long enough to step up now.Alberts selected as a lock primarily as his mobility as a flank was exposed by Read. We do need his enforcement though and him coming off the bench gives us options at lock and also flank. Toss up between Fourie at Flank and Brussouw. I am happy with which ever one is playing better. Cant beat a fit and fast Brussouw though!
Starting team:
1. Beast2. Bizzy3. Jannie4. Etzebeth5. PSDT6. Fourie7. Louw8. Vermuelen9. Kockott10. Lambie11. Habana12. Jean13. Fourie14. Willie15. JP
16. Strauss17. Kitshoff18. Alberts19. Minnie20. Du Preez21. Catrakilis22. Serfontein23. Herbst
This would just be a NH squad where the fields are heavy and slow. Playing in the SH, guys like Aplon and Serfontein will come into the mix. JJ too when he sorts his shit out on defence. I just dont think he has the creativity for a centre. He is a better finisher than creator.  
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#18
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#18
 
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#19
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#19

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#20
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#20

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#21
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#21

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#22
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#22

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:14
#23
23 Oct 2013, 13:14#23

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:18
#24
23 Oct 2013, 13:18#24
 Boklogic, I think you are trying to say something
BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:21
#25
23 Oct 2013, 13:21#25
 What u mean hakwa?
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:26
#26
23 Oct 2013, 13:26#26
 Duplicate much
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:28
#27
23 Oct 2013, 13:28#27
 
Thanks Logic ... appreciate it.

Interesting moving Alberts to lock. I was also thinking about doing that. He has slowed a lot but remains a man with a lot of go forward. Whether he can compete for a starting spot remains to be seen. Would make an interesting bench player though. I like him.


Catrakilis is a must. Deserves his spot at year end. More so that Goosen. Would definitely replace Goosen with him.


JJ at wing is a much better option than at center. Still wouldn’t make my squad though. Hate the bastard.


Only real issue I have of your is … Fat Fransie Steyn.


BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
23 Oct 2013, 13:38
#28
23 Oct 2013, 13:38#28
 Ok JJ is just super quick and could be our Habana when he moves on although you probably right about him. Habana has all the goods to go with his pace whilst JJ is limited in his skillset. I dont reckon he has those touches like Habana in terms of chip and chases and shit.
Fransie has not shown much to warrant selection and its hard to write his name in as its using up a valuable spot in our 28 but I feel so sorry for the oke. He had it all and was once "the man" of Bok rugby and now we are willing to toss him out.
Ok, if he is out, who do we replace him with? I prefer Ebersohn to De Allende. Surely it has to be one of those 2?
Nevermind what Mike says about Alberts. There is a reason Bok and Sharks coaches alike will bend over backwards to play the man. He can win you a game by himself when he gets on a roll. He has shown that many times and he did a great job against Eng mid year! Guys like Labuschagne and them just cant assert their presence like that right now.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 14:15
#29
23 Oct 2013, 14:15#29

Beeno

 

You said repeatedly that the doctors said that Goosen should not play - where and when and on what grounds did the doctors say it.   If it was on the grounds of his op in September recovery should be more than complete by the end of October - unless he did some damage starting so early.   I have not read anything about it anywhere so further info will be appreciated.

 

As far as I know Du Preez is not available - so why should he be taken to monitor anybody.  If Kockott and Pienaar need mentoring at this stage of their careers they should not be playing test rugby. 

 

As far as Malherbe is concerned I took a chance on him based on his performance in his come back game - ideally he should have had more game time - but he is always a solid choice and I view him as the no 1 tight head for the future.

 

I think if JP becomes available I would play Le Roux at full back and use one of the other two on the bench.   If anyone has the X Factor it is Marais. 

 

I must state again - when looking at a potential squad I did take into account that there are only 3 series of tests before the next WC and that potential WC players should be in the present squad to determine their suitability and that the next two series can then be used to refine and give new players a reasonable chance to prove themselves and get reasonable test game time - also replacing them if they do not match up..   You cannot go to the WC with rookies in the squad.   Do you really see players like Morne Steyn and Alberts as potential WC squad players for 2015?    I frankly don't and that is the issue here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 14:30
#30
23 Oct 2013, 14:30#30

Boklogic

 

One question - when last was Steyn performing as a best center - to get back to his best?   Was it in 2008-09 by any chance?   since then his best was not really top quality - now -was it?

 

Another question - when did Alberts win us a game - when he gets on the roll?   I do not need to be reminded of the freak try at Twickenham last year - he was lucky to be in the right spot to score a try where he had only to dot down the ball.  For the rest he lost us games and had a major share in the Ellis Park as well.      On the roll he never is - his tackle count is ridiculously low for a loosie, he plays no roll in breakdown ball recovery, arrives at breakdown points after the props, is slow as a carthorse and clumsy as well.   He never make tackles outside the fringe and his ball carries are pathetic.  Statistically he is a very poor loosie.  besides that in tests this  year he missed a number of tackles where tries were the direct result of his miss tackls and his clumsiness.   Two in the Samoa test and two in the Ellis Park test.

 

Good enough - definitely not we can do much better.     

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Oct 2013, 15:21
#31
23 Oct 2013, 15:21#31

Beenkop, why on earth would you want to select Burger who looks half the player he used to be?

 

Flip and Willemse ahead of de Jager is laughable as is Morne ahead of Goosen

 

Worst selection is Boshoff ahead of SP Marais or Frans Steyn  

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Oct 2013, 15:42
#32
23 Oct 2013, 15:42#32
 Well boklogics first half dozen squads wouldnt do any worse eh ?I hope all 3 SH sides belt the piss out of the Poms ,but beaner dont take the piss out of her Majesty [ I swore an oath to protect her heirs and successors and I take that seriously ] 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2013, 17:09
#33
23 Oct 2013, 17:09#33
My squad will be announced by Meyer later....after the laughable choices like Jantjies, van Zyl, Lood, Labuschagne etc have all been shown to be naive.....we are left with the common sense of the national coach.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
23 Oct 2013, 17:20
#34
23 Oct 2013, 17:20#34
 
So I guess you'll have JJ, Kirchner, Pienaar, Morne and Gurthro in the mix.

I guess it must be where we're all coming apart at the seams ... no damn common sense in any of us!!

Awesome contribution there, Mozart!!




CW
cwvdmerweRookie50 posts
23 Oct 2013, 17:50
#35
23 Oct 2013, 17:50#35
Mozart:
"My squad will be announced by Meyer later....after the laughable choices like Jantjies, van Zyl, Lood, Labuschagne etc have all been shown to be naive.....we are left with the common sense of the national coach."

Klop!

Die nasionale afrigting-span het baie meer inligting as enige van ons en is in 'n baie beter posisie as ons om besluite te kan maak. Anders as ons ontleed hulle elke stukkie spel in detail en steur hulle nie aan die wanpersepsies van jan-publiek nie.

aka "I agree"
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2013, 17:51
#36
23 Oct 2013, 17:51#36
Hahaha....thanks. Well if it were up to me I'd lose the Woolly Boolie, Flip Flop,  Pienaar and JJ......all Big Dave former picks. I'm not sure I'd be picking Serfontein, he looked awful in the match against the Cheetahs. And I'd be inclined to leave Bismarck at home, his attack on Labuschagne had red card written all over it. If he did that at Cardiff, he would be red carded. I think Strauss is a magnificent player, who may not provide the massive moments Bissie does, but does more for the team over a match and is a real leader.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2013, 17:53
#37
23 Oct 2013, 17:53#37
Sorry vd merwe my posting came before I saw your's and was intended for Clean Cut.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Oct 2013, 18:04
#38
23 Oct 2013, 18:04#38

Mozart

 

As per normal you have no positive and only negatives in your head.  Y our running down of performing players and support of failed players is legendary and everytime you made a wrong assessment countered by statistics - you go quiet.   By the way have you find that poor miss tackle of Burger - which you asked about and I told you when and where?   Gone quiet on that one - therefore I suppose you found it.

 

The real joke is players had in his squad and who failed badly in tests.   We can continue with players like Kirchner, Morne Steyn, Alberts, Steenkamp and Kruger - and failure over the next WC is virtually guaranteed - so enjoy while it lasts.

 

The joke is ultimately going to be on you - because I do not think Meyer has missed out on the failures.   If he did he will be wrong and end up like he did and admit himself that he made selections errors.  He is after all not perfect and only human.

 

    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Oct 2013, 18:24
#39
23 Oct 2013, 18:24#39
Yes we can continue with Morne, Alberts and Steenkamp. We are dealing with 2013. The RWC is two years away.  
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Oct 2013, 01:22
#40
24 Oct 2013, 01:22#40
Ja good old Meyers squad that will sneak past Scotland and continue to lose to NZ - makes perfect sense!!
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