New Young SA Talent coming through, who would be your u/23 springbok team

 Hi Guys,

I thought that it might be interesting to have a topic about all the young talent coming through at the moment. Looking at this year’s super 15, a lot of the youngsters look like they have been around for a couple of seasons.

If South Africa had to choose an under 23 team tomorrow, who would you guys pick for this team?

My team would be.

1.       Coenie Oosthuizen / Trevor Nyakana

2.       ?

3.       Kitshoff

4.       Elstadt

5.       Estebeth

6.       Marcel Coetzee

7.       Sia Kolisi

8.       Nick Coster / Stander

9.       Duvenage

10.   Goosen / Jantjies

11.   JJ Engelbrecht

12.   Venter / Tim Whitehead

13.   Robert Ebersohm

14.   Willie Le Roux

15.   Taute

Mine would be

15. Lambie 14. JJ.Engelbrecht 13. Taute 12. Sadie 11. W.le Roux 10. Goosen 9. Duvenhage 1. Kitshoff 2. C.Visagie 3. Malherbe 4.Etzebeth 5. Elstadt 6.Kolisi 7. Coetzee 8.CJ Stander

Second team could be: 15. P. Jordaan 14. Sithole 13. JP du Plessis 12. Whitehead 11. Mjekevu 10. Jantjies 9. v/Zyl 1. Coenie 2. Mbonambi 3. Rossouw de Klerk 4. Q.Roux 5. JA Marais 6.Carr 7.A.Botha 8.Koster.........

Not to mention the likes of Nkanyane, Marcel v/d Merwe, Frik Kirsten, Chadwick, Bullbring, Steph-du Toit, Bresler, J du Plessis,  v/d Walt, Shrauder, Fouche, F.Venter, P.Howard, J.Serfontien, D.Swanepoel, Buyers

Hi King, nice to have you on Board. I agree with you that Taute is more of a fullback, with his straight, undeceptive running.

C'mon Dave, you must have a third and fourth team in you....I'm not impressed with just two!

Moz i reckon I could have got 3 sides in there. Tough call with only U23's, but no research needed, those names are ingrained

 Thanks Mozart, prefer this forum over KEO followers that are so narrowminded. My thinking here is that we actually have some excellent youngsters coming through and Saffex mentioned some great names, but I'm looking at guys, under 23, that can beat any test team in the world. Can only be good for the boks going forward. 

Guys such as De Jongh, Hougaard etc are just over 23 now and will probably be our in starting 15 either this season or next so they were not considered. 

I do think we are a bit thing at 9 and 2 in terms of good young talent coming through. 

Also to add to this, Frans Steyn is only 24 if I am not mistaken. Hell at this age and he has nearly 50 bok caps. Still a long career ahead of him. Maybe he hits the 100 mark one day :)

That is the story with us Saffers, Ek. When someone has been around for a long time, it automatically equates to "old". Apart from Frans Steyn, I have also read on numerous occasions that the following players are old and needs to make way for youngsters, because they are too old (and I am not talking about the Bok squad only):

Morne Steyn (27), Zane Kirchner (27), Jacques Louis Potgieter (27), Gurthro Steenkamp (31, and he is a forward, FFS),  Jannie du P (30, and same story as Gurthro),  Odwa Ndungane (31), Hennie Daniller (28) to name a few.

On the other hand, according to some, there is no one better than Jean de V (31), Andries Bekker (28), Schalk Burger (28), Bismarck du P (27), Gio Aplon (29), Bryan Habana (29), sarel Pretorius (27). They don't have to make way for youngsters. A lot of people would shit themselves if you would suggest leaving Aplon out of the Bok squad at this stage, yet Fourie du Preez who is only 7 months older is a F-ed up hasbeen.

Cera, age should not really come into it, but with some players its clear that age has caught up with them - like du Preez, Ndungane and Habana. Morne Steyn is not an age thing, he is just damn average.

My theory is that if you are an incumbent and the best in your position, then age is immaterial. Take Bakkies and Victor as examples. I have issue with a 30 year old being brought into the side ahead of a youngster, particularly since we are blessed with so much young talent in SA.

I would never bring Guthro 31 back to replace Beast who is 26 or 27, as good as Guthro is, he is no better than Beast or the likes of Kitshoff, Marcel v/d Merwe, Coenie or Greyling - I'd invest in these youngsters first. Same goes for all the positions - Frans Steyn ahead of Jean, Hougaard ahead of du Preez, Etzebeth ahead of Bakkies etc

 Coenie at 1 and Goosen at 10 most definitely!

 Ceradyne, I see your point, what this discussion is merely acknowledging the young talent we have and identify those who we believe can make an impact for the boks in the not to distant future. I agree that some playersgetter better with age and would probably be suited better at a later age, but looking at the World Cup disaster where some players clearly overstayed their welcome the detriment of the team, but that is a different discussion all together. 

For Example, Locks and Props seem to do really well with age and I wouldn't leave out Guthro if he is fit and the best in his position. For all we know Bekker could have another 2 world cups left in him but we shouldn't sacrifice up and coming talent for sentiment. 

Goosen defenitely, however raw he still is, the talent is shining.

Coenie----Hell boet I like the way he plays, he is really talented, and the day he clicks he is brilliant, especially in the loose, his ability to steal ball puts him apart from athor looseheads. Playing him and bismark together will nullify any fetcher that you need to play to pilfer a loose ball.

However Playing coenie and bismark together is a risk, Both hotheaded. ........If you get what i am saying. They both have alot of work to do regarding their discipline. Both on and off the field. Bismark has learn't something in tha last few years, Coenie still has a lot to learn.

I understand what this is about KC, and I understand that this topic is about up and coming youngsters, but have tried to show that we are somehow forever getting the "too old" or "too young" thing wrong. I also understand Saffex' stand about Morne, and we are actually in agreement that age in rugby goes way beyond the date on a player's birth certificate. I have come to accept that the best one would ever get out of Saf about Morne is only ever going to be something like: "OK, he did nothing wrong" LOL. Saf don't rate him as a player and that is it. I have not included him to get a stab at Saf. I have seen many others who have always rated Morne, or any of the players that I have mentioned, suddenly decide they are too old. Fact is that I get the idea that we get used to see the players in the teams over a period of time. Then suddenly, that a Lambie, Goosen, Jantjies appears on the team, and we want him in the Bok squad and then it is decided that the incumbent is too old. We somehow forget to look at the age of the guy.

In addition, the moment when this players goes of the boil just a little bit his "age" gets amplified. For goodness sake, if the Aussies had the same viewpoint, they would probably have started looking for a replacement for James O'Connor, who already has 27 test caps and 39 Super Rugby caps, but he is only flippin 21 years old.

Same with Frans Steyn, he would easily make another RWC. In fact, if he look after himself, he could still play another two RWC's, provided he is better than the next player, or bring something to the table that is neeeded and which no one else can bring. Of course there would once again be the voices shouting: "Ja,but what about these youngsters who are not getting a chance, blah di blah di blah............" . My opinion is, tough shit. You play the best available at all times, and everybody has to wait their turn. This idea of giving someone a chance at national level is bulldust, IMO. If you want to get in the side, you have be able to make a difference, otherwise you wait your turn. If there are six world class hookers in South Africa, who are all more or less on the same level, what are we going to do? They are going to select a squad with two hookers, and tough shit for the other four who looses out. That is life.

Its not really a difficult question in principle. You select the best. If the best is an older player you develop a younger player(S) to take over and try for a seamless transition. The Abs have done this well over the years.

As for Du Preez, well is he the best. Has Hougaard overtaken him. Given recent form one has to say yes as Du Preez has not set the world alight for a season or two. Is Du Preez the second best. Maybe. Du Preez has to come back to SA and show he is worthy of a place. No hand outs please and no giving players a spot on reputation alone when their form has been not up to scratch for a while.

A

I agree with windpomp that Du Preez is not necessarily too old. Has he the desire still etc. How is the body holding out. Seems to have a dicey shoulder?

I see Juan Smith will not play this year but still hopes to make a comeback next year.

Funny hey. we have such a big talent pool at u23, yet we've won fokkol age group competitions in the past 5 years. 

Wonder where we r going wrong. 

I think its high time that we cut ties with messers Sauls and Theron. They both keep saying how much age group talent we have, but we've done almost nothing with it. I say get proper coaches and let's see how we do. Next thing we know, blackcardo loubscher will be the U20 coach. 

 For me if we had to talk about a bigger picture in terms which yountster needs to replace a bok stalward I would say it depends on the coach, we can't have the same rubbish as we did with Pieter Devil'iers.  I think hte just need to find the right time, You hang on to them to long and you lose out, you drop them to soon and you luck out. classic case, Mallett dropped Teichman, poof, world cup imploads. You hang on to long and you end up with a comprimise where you have 4 better hookers than John Smit to choose from for the sake of a captain. 

But I would always pick the strongest team for right now, if the player is 36 and still playing better rugby than anybody else in his position then so be it. For me the key is the coach and how he mananeges the players. It is more than just 15 players on the field, what if you have 6 injuries, do we have enough good people around that know the system well enough that won't impact the team.

My final point is that we should not sacrifice youngsters for the sake of sentiment. For all we know, Ruan Pienaar could still be a great 9 for the boks, he has shown what he can do.

Agreed, Theron is useless and sold us short at Bok U20 level. To think that last year he did not include the likes of Marcel Coetzee and Kitshoff in the squad

The Fact thet last year neither Kitschoff, Marcell Coetzee, Frans Malherbe, Patric Lambie, Elton Jantjies where included was because of the unions not becauser Theron did not want them. Well Maybe Lambie and Jantjies, Lambie because of boks and Jantjies because Goosen is better and his Younger brother will play this year with goosen me thinks.

Anycase This year I have heard that things are different, SARU has given him the mandate instead of the provinces. So He might get Kitschoff, Etzebeth and these guys this year, also again dependant on alot of politics between SARU and Provinces.

The junior SA squads can't always pick who they want. He only got Taute as replacement last year because his commitments with the Lions where complete.

 I think what the u/20 cached wanted to do is that he wanted to go for a bigger players to match those of NZ and England. That said, did you guys see the monster that the lions will be releasing on the cheetahs come this weekend. The kid Paul Willemse is only 19 and weighs in at Kg135!!! and 1.99cm

We should maybe talk about the SA u 20 squad, but I think that is where the unions go wrong, they un earth some young talent, but rather release them to play for the under 20 they choose to play them in the super rugby. 

But there are a lot of guys from that squad of last year that hasn't even been pick up by the unions. At least all of those players should be in some super rugby squad.

Props

• John Roy Jenkinson
• Stephan Kotze
• Juan Schoeman
• Nic Schonert

Hookers

• Mbongeni Mbonambi
• Michael Van Vuuren

Locks

• Eben Etzebeth
• Ruan Venter

Loose forwards

• Nizaam Carr
• Jean Cook
• Cornell Du Preez
• Francois Kleinhans
• Siya Kolisi
• Arno Botha

Half backs

• Lohan Jacobs
• Pieter Rademan

Fly halfs

• Johan Goosen

Centres

• Paul Jordaan
• Tshotsho Mbovane
• Bradley Moolman
• Francois Venter
• Johnny Welthagen

Wings

• Craig Barry
• Wandile Mjekevu
• Courtnall Skosan
• Jaco Taute

Full backs

• Ulrich Beyers

Etzebeth is too old for Bok U20, he turns 21 this year. Jantjies played the year before last and was brilliant for the Baby Boks

Theron did have the likes of Paul Willemse, Jacques du Plessis, Steph-du Toit, Goosen, Jordaan, Jan Serfontien and Pat Howard in this years trial squads

 Folks irrespective of age etc SA rugby is indeed plessed to have such a number of young gifted players.

Trust they are coached and played into the Bok squad slowly.

Time to start kicking NZ and Ozzie butt!!!!!

Up with the Green and Gold.