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No place for sentamental selections

Started by generaltit15 REPLIES440 VIEWS· 24 Nov 2014, 06:45
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GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
24 Nov 2014, 06:45
#1
24 Nov 2014, 06:45#1

Gavin Rich wrote last year...but this still continues


No place for sentimental selections by Gavin Rich 08/07/2013, 09:03

The end of the recently concluded series between the Wallabies and British and Irish Lions should leave most rugby fans, regardless of where they are from, feeling bereft. Going into this week is a bit like arriving at the day after the conclusion of an absorbing five-day cricket test – so what are we left to focus on and talk about now?

Fortunately we are at the conclusion of what has become an exciting Super Rugby season, and the Castle Rugby Championship is just around the corner, but I have to concur with John Robbie’s view that it all amounts to more of the same. The Lions series was different because, like a World Cup, it only happens every four years, and the hype for this series was really something to behold.

In the end the better team won. The Wallabies could have won the first test had they kicked their goals, and of course they did win the second, so the third test could well have ended up being a dead rubber. But I thought that on balance the Lions were the better team across the series, and they should have won the second test had they possessed more thrust and ambition on attack.

That brings us to the subject of Brian O’Driscoll’s omission from the team for the final test. I must admit that I thought Lions coach Warren Gatland was crazy when I first heard that he had dropped O’Driscoll, news by the way which was given to me first by Jean de Villiers at a Stormers training session last Wednesday. A jack of all trades is the Bok captain, for in addition to his other strengths, it also seems he’s a bit of a news hound.

But once I started to think about it I understood Gatland’s reasoning better, and by the time the game arrived I most emphatically didn’t agree with the Stuart Barnes view that the Wallabies were suddenly favoured by the selection as it robbed the Lions of much needed experience.

The mention of De Villiers earlier was made on purpose for he is linked, through his absence, to an occasion that has directed my view that maybe sometimes too much can be made of experience and that maybe modern rugby is a game for young men.

Fortunately for the Springboks, the Stormers and De Villiers, the current captain is playing as well as at any time in his career, and is worth his place in all the teams that he is leading.

However, when Western Province broke their long trophy drought by winning last year’s Currie Cup final, De Villiers was absent. So was Schalk Burger. So was Andries Bekker. And Tiaan Liebenberg was too. In other words, the four most experienced Stormers players from the last while and the men you might have assumed were indispensable for a final where experience was supposedly going to be so important.

Those players had all been present in the 2010 final at the same Kings Park venue, when Province lost badly, but two years later it was a much younger WP team that took on a far more experienced Sharks team that included several Springboks – and they won. Deon Fourie, who hasn’t played any international rugby, led the side, the front-row was made up of 21-year-olds, and De Villiers’s place at inside centre was filled by a callow 20-year-old newcomer in Damian de Allende.

So that was one strike against the theory that age and experience is what counts in a final or big decisive game. Not for one moment am I going to argue that experience isn’t important, for it is. At this point in time, the Springboks need Jean de Villiers, and so do the Stormers.

The qualification is important though, for while I enjoy De Villiers and love watching him play, the minute he starts to look past it as a player his coaches are going to need to face the fact that time stands still for no man and do what is necessary. Last year’s Currie Cup final showed that maybe rugby is a young man’s game after all, and it started me wondering whether sometimes we make too much of an issue of experience. The emphatic Lions win in the deciding test confirmed it.

O’Driscoll is 34 years old and is not the player he was – De Villiers is better than him at this stage of their respective careers – and the focus on his defensive abilities was irrelevant in that it didn’t take into account what the coach felt he needed in order to win the match.

Another absentee from the deciding test was the injured Paul O’Connell, another Lion of considerable experience. He wasn’t missed as the Lions turned in a performance that has only once been rivaled in recent memory – and that was in the dead rubber test at Ellis Park in 2009 when, yes, the Lions were also playing without some of their more experienced men.

The message that comes out of this Lions series, and particularly the final test, is that there is no place for sentiment in selection.

The Springboks may well have been able to survive the Bryce Lawrence freak-show in the 2011 World Cup quarterfinal had the coach at that time, Peter de Villiers, been prepared to do what Gatland did and ignore sentiment in his deliberations.

Even some of his fellow management were adamant in the build-up to that game that the Boks should take the field in that crucial game with as close as possible a selection to the one that had beaten the All Blacks in Port Elizabeth in the build-up to the tournament - in other words with Bismarck du Plessis as the hooker instead of John Smit, and Victor Matfield as the captain.

De Villiers based his selection on an agreement he had made two years earlier and paid no heed to current form. That just isn’t how it should be done. By contrast, Gatland was brave enough to throw sentiment out of the window. The result vindicated him and it should be seen as an object lesson on how selection should be done.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Nov 2014, 07:04
#2
24 Nov 2014, 07:04#2
 We Have an interesting article here.   The sentimental selections of Meyer centers around four players - namely De Villiers, Matfield, Hanbana and Pietersen.   Of those four I would say three (De Villiers, Matfield and Pietersen are below par and Habana s so-so.
I have done an analuysis of Matfield's performances since his return to the Springbok team in June 1014 and also one of the performances of De Villiers this year and will post same soon.
JE
JeromeVClub Pro492 posts
24 Nov 2014, 12:30
#3
24 Nov 2014, 12:30#3
Gavin Rich is spot on here. Experience is important although the coaches are making too much of a big deal of it.
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
24 Nov 2014, 12:39
#4
24 Nov 2014, 12:39#4

I wholeheartedly agree with this, the reason for me is one of the game has changed, what worked 5 years ago or 10 years ago does not necessarily work anymore.


Players of the previous generation (I see most of our senior players as previous up and under generation)  do not have the skills for a new faster game.


They have shown over and over that they don't possess those skills.


And it must not be seen as being disrespectful, they just belong to another era. They represented us with pride, many of them are heroes of mine, but it is time for new heroes

DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Nov 2014, 12:40
#5
24 Nov 2014, 12:40#5
Smit was one of the standout performers in that game, and that World Cup. Our pack dominated that game like no other Bok side has ever dominated Australia. The problems, aside from the reffing costing three tries, was the work in the backs, where Jean was a key culprit. You see, Morné actually played quite flat, but the angles of running and one-off runners were too predictable which made that flatter attack incredibly easy to stop. The author of the article already had a preconceived motive that has merely used a sore topic for Bok supporters to stir up emotions that can be easily molded and directed wherever he intended for them to be .

Added to that, we were in no place to remove those pillars of the team. We are in 2014 and the youngsters are still not good enough. It would have been suicide to replace a team that was virtually identical to the one that defeated the All Blacks that year anyway; the difference between Danie at 4, Smit at 2 (Bismarck didn't have a good day starting against New Zealand), Schalk in place of Alberts. That's it. 

It really irks me when these journos use the ignorance of the fans to create a shady place in their work where they can be deceitful.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Nov 2014, 13:43
#6
24 Nov 2014, 13:43#6
 There is ni way in th world that a bxckline with Morne Steyn as pivot can function at all.   It is always easy to stop a bckline when Morne is at flyhalf.   The popposingloosies and flyhalf never need to worry about tackling him - go for the unlucky recipient of his passes and the ball goes dead.    That is dear Morne a t flyhalf - the biggest backline killer of all time.  
Noen of the players outside Morne had any chance to perform that day becaue of the uiutter preictability of Morne.   
But the team was doomed from the start.   Th domination up front Letsallbemorons talk about was a figment of his imagination.    The Springbok squad was a collection of hasbeens and players that should not have been there.  Smit definitely was one of those - and so was Steenlkamp - a collection of really fat and lousy players who overstayed their welcome in the team.
And some idiots want basically the whole of the 2011 disaster squad to represent SA in the 2015 WC - they must really be nutcases.  

   
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
24 Nov 2014, 18:11
#7
24 Nov 2014, 18:11#7
  and the youngsters are still not good enough. It would have been suicide to replace a team that was virtually identical to the one that defeated the All Blacks that year anyway; the difference between Danie at 4, Smit at 2 (Bismarck didn't have a good day starting against New Zealand), Schalk in place of Alberts. That's it.

A comment that has partial truth but deceptive...youngsters can always be good enough provided the ground is fertile and properly prepared and phased in...it's certainly not a stupid comment but fails to look at the real issue...at least that's my opinion...my following has always been Naas Botha's and Nicks summaries... and my initiative...first conservative but when black hair starts turning to gray...wisdom results...Young men can do the job, provided they are exposed to the pressure early and this is partly BS ...too young...forbid it men were 16 in 1st world war...20 plus is experience in the wider context...why is this very irritating because it's simply not absolutely and entirely true...and I say this with the greatest respect for your sincerity.
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
24 Nov 2014, 23:22
#8
24 Nov 2014, 23:22#8
Young men can do it if they are good enough. Frans was in 2006 ad 2007, but how many youngsters have played at that level since? Very, very few. Pollard hasn't even had that kind of impact. I'll say it again, the new generation is inferior to the men who came before them. Not a great vintage of rugby players at all.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Nov 2014, 02:11
#9
25 Nov 2014, 02:11#9
Why would we want to repeat the Proteas against Oz?  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Nov 2014, 04:41
#10
25 Nov 2014, 04:41#10
 Mozart
As kak praat a siekte is het jy diarrhea.
You were shownto be talking crap in the case of the Australia ODI's with unsubstantiated prejudice against the younger players - whilethe more experienced Amla, Du Plessis and Behardien were the real players who did not perform up to standard in most of the games.   .
The same can be said in the case of th Springbokselections wheere the older players have let down the Springboks more often than notin tests this year.   One only have to look at some debacles by more experienced players in the tests we lost or won by a small and vey uncomfortable margins this year ro realize who were mostly at fault.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Nov 2014, 05:31
#11
25 Nov 2014, 05:31#11
Behardien, Miller, McLaren, Parnell, Abbott, De Kock....the new face of our cricket. Who came to the party....Behardien and de Kock in a dead rubber game. But I suppose winning isn't really important. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Nov 2014, 05:47
#12
25 Nov 2014, 05:47#12
 Balls
Behardien has been in and out of the ODI squad and the T 20 squad since 2011,  Parneell has been around also since 2011 - so what made them young players?
McClaren has been around for two years and so has Miller.  The only really new player was De Kock - and you have been severely critical of him.
In any event we dealt with the batting - so you stopped discssing that because Amla and Du Plessis had for them very poor batting figures.   
On the bowling side only Steyn was consistently good - the other experienced bowlers have had up and down gaes as well.   But the main problem was not the bowling -it was the indeffierent batting perofrmances.
If you won 16 out of 23 games and lost five because of batting flops by Smith and Kallis - after which they were left out of selection and Kallis ultimately being leaving th squad ecause he realized that he was not up to standard and said so himself - then one wonders about you wild statement.   
Over the last 15 months the Proteas had on three occassions being rated as the no 1 side in ODI's - so your statement on "I suppose winning isn't really important."  is aboslute crap.   After the departuure of Smih and Kallis we went from no 6 on the ODI rankings and have been between 1 and 3 consistently.  - so what about winning then?   As kak praat 'n siekte iwas ....  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Nov 2014, 05:58
#13
25 Nov 2014, 05:58#13
Oh nonsense, whatever we achieved came from AB and Steyn and older players who became permanent team members like Faf and Philander. Who under 25 made a tinkers damn apart from de Kock?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Nov 2014, 06:19
#14
25 Nov 2014, 06:19#14
 Who are in your book the newbies?   Behardien and Parnell are not newbies.
The only real newbies are De Kock, Miller, Rossouw, McClaren and Abbott.
Like Amla - de Kock started off badly in the bouncy Perth wicket - after which he did well enough.   Miller did poorly in the last ODI - but was good enough in three of the other 4.   Rossouw did well enough in the first ODI in which he played - was out early oin one and was good in the other one.   McClaren was an iffy selection from the start - who did well in Sri Lanka and Harare and not well enough in the lates series.   Abbott at best an iffy selection.
I think the media is corrrect - the choice is between McClaren and Parnell forone spot in the ODiI squat for the WC   My squad wil bethe following:-
Batters
Amla, De Kock, Du Plessis, Rossouw, De Villiers, Miller, Van Zyl 
All Rounders 
Duminy, McClaren
Bowlers
Steyn, Morkel, Philander, De Lange, Tahir, Phangiso 
Now lets look at the world ratings of batters ODI's.

De Villiers remains at no 1Amla was no 3De Koc was no 9
Amla was the real disappointmentin the team this series - he did not perform up to his high world rating in ODI's   Neither did du Plessis.       
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Nov 2014, 06:32
#15
25 Nov 2014, 06:32#15
Amla was fine when it counted. De Kock was fine when it didn't matter....and lucky, he was almost gone twice in his first over. The fact is most of the newbies significantly underperformed ...Parnell, McLaren, Miller. And clearly Faf had a disappointing series.
Is this new team everybody was agitating for a team of world beaters?  I would like to believe so, but it's much harder to believe when the Aussies never even felt they needed Johnson in the deciding test.

Is this progress?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Nov 2014, 07:16
#16
25 Nov 2014, 07:16#16
 Amla was not fine when it counted - you are talking crap again.   Look at hos overall performances.  - they are all supposed to count.   Parnell is NOT a newbie - get that into your fossilled brain.   
O - so lucky - but then what is that?   De Kock is the only lucky player in the squad - accordingto you.   If he plays well - he is lucky.  he is the youngest SA player who have scored 6 centuries and he is the youngest player in the world top 10 ratings - did he get there because eh was kucky - or because he played well?   Plase note that unlike Graeme Smith in the later part of his career - De Kock ht out at balls and do not fiddlde around.   In such cases luck will always play a role.   You can survive because you are lucky - but in his case their is much more than luck to his game.   .
Mozart - we all want to see the Proteas winning - but then the failure of players in the top order should not happen.  Whehtr you like it or not Amla failed in four out odf the five ODI's played - end of story.   Du Plessis basically failed in all five.   
Over the past 16 months or so - the issue was that if three of the top and middle order fired in batting - the team won.   In the last series only De Villiers fired in all four ODI's he played in, De Kock in two out of five played, Miller in 2 out of 5 played, Rossouw in two out of 3 played,  Amla in one out of 5 played, Behardine in one outof 5 played and Du Plessis in noe of the matches played.
In three of the matches  only two of the above players fired in the same match - in the second one it was De Villiers and Miller, in the third ODI - it was Amla, De Kock and De Villiers and in the final one De Kock and  Rosouuw.       Just not nough contribution from teh top 6 batters to win - but that coud easily beturnedaorund in theupcoming WC.    
— END OF THREAD —

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