Old players vs young ones

Moz advocates the old farts and I am all for the youngsters. It is only at wing and hooker that the old boys prevail over the youngsters........for the rest, our youngsters are better than the old farts or certainly on par.

At fullback.......Willie, Taute, SP Marias and Visser are all better than Kirchner

At wing Habana and JP still hold the trumps, but then JP is hardly old.......middle aged is the best way to describe him in rugby terms. But Rhule, v/d Heever and co are no match for these old farts.

At centre, Jean is hanging in there, but Serfontein is just as good and could prove even better. I'd have no issue at all seeing Serfontein in the Bok 12 jersey right now. JJ has the 13 spot all to his own. Frans having just turned 26 is still young and in the mix. Youngsters like de Allende are pushing.

At flyhalf, Goosen and Lambie are far better than Morne who is way past his sell by date, in fact he should never have been on the shelf in the first place.

At 9, du Preez showed us a nice crisp service, but very little else, he remains in the equation though. Pienaar has been solid to poor. Youngsters like Hougaard, v/Zyl and Reinach are on par with these old boys.

At prop, Beast and Jannie are solid enough, but no better than the likes of Coenie, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Nkaynane and v/d Merwe.

Bismark, Strauss and Chiliboy rule the hooker spot, only youngster to compete is Cooper of the Sharks but he is no match for the old farts

At lock the youngsters dominate in a big way. Franco and Juandre Kruger are not test quality locks and Flip is good enough but not better than Etzebeth, Steph du Toit and de Jager

Amongst the loosies, middle aged Vermeulen stands tall, Louw has been disappointing and Alberts blows hot and cold. Arno Botha, CJ Stander, Kolisi, v/d Walt, Elstadt, Coetzee, Brussouw and Labascagne are all better bets than Louw and Alberts.

Bring on the youngsters I say, with a mix of old farts in Habana, Jean, du Preez, Beast, Jannie, Bismark, Strauss and Vermeulen

Saffex

Look there is something about foreign-based players that bothers me a bit.  Do they really fit into play the way they should?   Is there a real understanding on what the other - mostly local players - can do and are up to?  I noticed that even in the case of Fourie du Preez there were passes that went astray - maybe because he mistimed them.  

Be it  as it may - in general I agree with you about most of the above players.     

Mozart

To quote you :  "Our loosie play only started improving when Louw replaced Coetzee last year".

I do not agree with  Saffex about Louw and do believe that Vermeulen  brings his part to loosie play - but we do have a problem, neither are really mobile enough and there are aspects of loosie play where their impact is minimal.   However, we have nothing better at this stage - and I cannot see anyone better in the Super 15 set-up or even in the last Bok squad.   The main problem remains Alberts - who is much slower than Louw and Vermeulen and clumsy as well - despite your protestations to the contrary, his contributions to the team is minimal - you might as well play a prop in the no 7 jersey.

You seem not to realise that SARU is on the point of slapping down on the number of foreign based players.   For once it is the emphasis you place on huge reputation that is the death of SA rugby - the game does not depend on huge reputation - it depends on huge performance.   Because of the likely downturn in foreign-based player selection - it is clear that players like Bekker and Fourie could be eliminated and not selected.   As to Bakkies - he has a huge reputation and at this stage he has anything but a huge performance - he is nowhere near test quality anymore and that is proven by his very average - some would even say poor - performances for his club side lately.   Glorious memory - but that is all.

Hope De Villiers goes through to 2015 without an injury and keeps up the good work - that is why I think that Meyer may bring De Allende into the squad - he is a more secure defender and stronger ball carrier than Serfontein is at this stage and can cover 12, 13 and 11/14.  

In conclusion - I never was a Kirchner supporter and still is not.  His rugby brain is the size of half a peanut - dumb as hell.

 I stopped reading this crap when I got to "At centre, Jean is hanging in there, but Serfontein is just as good and could prove even better. I'd have no issue at all seeing Serfontein in the Bok 12 jersey right now. JJ has the 13 spot all to his own!"

Saffex could be a pretty good scout I reckon. He knows has a vision of how he wants rugby to be played and he spots young talent but dont ask him to select the team. He will blood too many youngsters at once, some shit combinations and we will struggle with teams like Argentina and Scotland a lot more often whilst never beating the top 5 teams!

He doesn't understand that Jean De Villiers is irreplaceable in the Bok team right now. He doesn't understand that a couple good breaks in super rugby does not make an international superstar as we have seen with JJ, Jantjies, Basson, De Jongh and so on.

These international players are just bigger and better. Its not about the flair they produce for 10 mins whilst disappearing for the next 30 of the half. Its the whole package they need. The consistency in their game which is why SP Marais will not be great right now and why Willie Le Roux is not the complete product at 15. They can provide flashes of brilliance but way too many little inconsistencies in their game that will put them under pressure in the caulderon that is test rugby.

Thats why these flash props that push the shit out of the opposition in first 20 then fade dont make it over guys like Beast and Jannie that maintain all game. Flankers like Labuschagne that wow you for 15 mins then quiet down dont play over guys like Burger, Louw or Alberts that you see for 80mins. Maybe not as flash but you know what you are getting.

Any guys that have played international and super rugby will tell you it is very different. These guys are not saying that for their health or to sound cool. It is a fact. Not everyone will be international rugby players or can make it at that level.

I can pick a team right now with 22 flashy players but they wont be a good international team and thats what Dave wants. Jean De Villiers, Fourie Du Preez, Jaque Fourie, Habana, JP Pietersen, Schalk Burger, Bismarck, Strauss, Jannie..THese are okes that you need to have around. Yes, some youth in between that but most of the guys you think are that good from super rugby, make the step up and prove to be flops like Taute and Wynand Olivier and like we are seeing with JJ right now!

 Ha ha just gota laugh at Saff man. He takes the debate way too personally. He really is lacking in the people skills.

Yeah, maybe I did move here to shag sheep. What was your reason for moving to England? So you can join the failed youth there, become a chav and your language and respect levels would fit right in. You are a piece of shit Saffex! I dont know what makes you think the way you talk to people that disagree with you is ok.

Best you left SA to join that scum because you would have had the shit kicked out of you daily.

Sharkbok, Rudolf Straueli would have looked like a God next to Dave. His team changes weekly. Every time a guy under 23 years old makes a break in a game, he would be promoted to a Bok call up. Thats why I say, Dave should be a scout. Come back with his findings, sift through the 200 names of shit that he rattles off and you may find a gem in that pile. Then of course he will think he is the world's greatest identifier of talent and preach how he spotted the guy but not remember the other 200 guys he would have given a chance before.

Thank God this oke is unknown to SA rugby. Can you imagine that. The year he becomes coach would also be a Springbok record for the amount of debutants and he would shatter Straueli's record record of only beating teams from the top 6 nations in the world 2 out of 16 attempts. He would also have shatter his record of like 27 different centre combinations in as many tests.

Total vote of no confidence in this oke from me. Once again, thank God he is a nobody! Just a nothing that needs a hug!

Mozart

I want to quote your above comments so as not to get it wrong:-

"Name one rugby country that has succeeded with that strategy. Every RWC has been won with a team comprised of great players, experienced players who are competent but not great and a small cadre ( one or two) of new players.  "

I am going to counter your argument by asking you why has no team ever one two successive WC's in a row.   The answer is simple - the first WC is won by great players at their prime when that particular WC  is held - the next one  lost because the great players is way past their prime - who should have ben replaced because their performance standards have dropped below the level of acceptability.

Put it bluntly the first one is one when great  players display top performance - the second one lost because the players play on reputation.

It happens after every WC that the players who won - suddenly all became great players - but were they really that great?   The answer is to an extent YES - but only some really greats are involved - the remainder are good players in an adequate team environment.

Now lets get to the statement above.   I for one do not want to see wholesale hanges to the present Springbok team - most of the players are real professionals performing well - but there is a minority comprising 4 or 5 players who are playing on reputation with zero regard to performance and who should be replaced urgently - because they are just not good enough at this stage and will not be good enough in future.

We have been through all this in post after post.   On one weak link we agree (Kirchner) - on the rest you keep on ascribing assets to that never come to fruition.  We have according to you the mighty ball carrier and bone-crushing tackler Alberts - whose one or two ball carries per match gain all of 2 meters each and whose last bone crushing tackle was years ago - a slow player and clumsy player with no real performance of value and have led the team down badly at Ellis Park.   Then we have Kruger - a player which is poor in line-outs without any grunt and who according to your various arguments is mobile enough to off-set Alberts slow motion play, or call line outs and organise play in the event of kick ins - but in the end is a serial flop.  Lastly we have Morne Steyn - whose real asset  according to you is his kicking at goal - the fact is he is a robotic player who tries to play to instructions with no idea which option he has to take at specific moments during matches.   Lastly we have Steenkamp way past his prime and not up to international test standard anymore. 

Looking at those five players - they definitely cannot be described in your own terminology as great players.   They are bog ordinary players with some real deficiencies that damage the performance of the team as a whole.    That is the type of players that cost you in tests in general and in the WC in particular.  They are in the main the reason for the Springboks losing crucial tests like the Ellis Park test and why we struggle against lower ranked teams to win test matches.  The four players mentioned were virtually all involved in tests lost by the Springboks in the period 2009 to 2013 - they are really no match winners but match losers. 

If those five players are not replaced now - we will end up with either a deficient WC squad or with inexperienced players in the WC squad.  Both would mean an unsuccessful campaign. 

The arguments you make about those four players and you emphasis on reputation rather than performance are really spurious and not based on fact.   

 Im not about to sit here and debate with you over which country is better between England and NZL. The main points are what appeal. Safety, education system, mostly good people and weather. Thats all one needs in life and NZL has that.

We are not talking about the millions of people that are good people in the UK. We are talking about you, you badly raised piece of shit. You would fit straight into the life of a green street hooligan except for 1 thing. You dont fight in person. You prefer the safety of your computer to run your ignorant mouth off.

There are many different types of people within a country. Even the most liveable country in the world has a jail where pieces of shit rot. Just because its the best country in the world, does that mean those convicts are good people as they live there? You are so stupid. I never understood why CC called you stupid up until now. There is only one word for you. Stupid! It suits you to the tee but you should try be Dave sometimes or is he just as stupid.

You need to learn that your opinion is not the only one that matters and debate like a gentlemen. Not an insulting little fuck that you are. You are a grown man for fuck sake. Start acting like one. While you are at it, try learning a bit about the game you love to talk about. You are clutching at straws!

Sharkbok

We will kn0w by tomorrow or even later today who is in the squad and who not.   However, in essence I think there will inevitably be quota players in the squad and players left out as a result.   It is however, a pestilence we have to live with and hopefully the quota players will be limited insofar as actual match day squads are concerned.

We will also know by today - or tomorrow what Saru's attitude is about foreign-based players.   I am not against foreign-based players - but they should be limited to only the most essential players where there are not adequate local players to select.   

Ah yeah would this be the NZ, the country that has one of the highest teenage suicide stats - wonder why that is? 

Oh yes and I never got passed your first paragraph as you struggle to string a comprehensible sentence together - yawn

Sadly there might be quota selections, but there need not be given we have merit selections in JP, Habana, Rhule, Mapoe, Mvovo, Volmink, Kolbe, Howard Mnisi, Jantjies, Beast, Chiliboy, Ntumbeni, Nkanyane, Kolisi and Mtembu to name but some.

Mozart

No comments again on my post as to WC winners and failure to win successive cups because of non-replacement of rugby geriatrics so favoured by you.  Trumped again and losing your hopeless argument again - hence the quiet?

That's not an argument Mike....it's an assertion. And a false one. The Poms for example had several key players who would have been 36 plus at the next RWC. They were already the team that had reached full mturity....they won. They didn't win back in 99 because our old guys were better than their old guys.

As for the Boks when we won in 2007....we brought back Os, Monty and Butch to win the thing. Absent those golden oldies we wouldn't have won. And we were even better set to win in 2011 from a player standpoint. But we made some mistakes....playing Spies for example. And we badly missed Bakkies and Juan Smith who would have been there, barring injury.

But mostly we were just very badly coached under PdV. For example, as the Lions showed the Aussie scrum is a huge weakness. But we accepted scrum neutrality by not making scrumming a feature of our game plan.

So, no, your argument is puerile driv el.

 Ha ha the saff man mentions "merit" selections then he throws names out like Volmink, Jantjies, Mnisi, Ntubeni, Nkanyane, Kolisi, Mtembu, Kolbe, Mapoe and Rhule..

THis oke is a moron. Saffex, this is the Springboks you retard. Get that into your head! This is not some damn under 15 trials match where guys kick the ball at goals, it falls way short and the opposition bloke hacks it over for him. This is international rugby. Please buddy, think before you write.

After that post I am starting to think therapy is required. You just are not on the same page as the rest of us. In fact, your'e in a different book!

Love the way you end "To name but some!" Wat die fok! You got more where those game from?? Ha ha go on chap. Let us hear em? You forgot Oupa Mahoje or how about Bryan Shabangu from the Border Bulldogs?

Ignorant cake!

"Ha ha the saff man mentions "merit" selections then he throws names out like Volmink, Jantjies, Mnisi, Ntubeni, Nkanyane, Kolisi, Mtembu, Kolbe, Mapoe and Rhule.."

Tell me, Smallcock, is it just coincidence that every single name on your personal shitlist is a non-white?

Remind us again . . . why did you flee South Africa?

 Ooh ooh, looks like Rooinek has spoken again before he understands what he is speaking about. All to common for him though.

Rooidoos, if you followed the thread (before you spoke and showed your ignorance) you will see Saffex's post about quota players. I will post it for you below as research is obviously not your strong point.

"Sadly there might be quota selections, but there need not be given we have merit selections in JP, Habana, Rhule, Mapoe, Mvovo, Volmink, Kolbe, Howard Mnisi, Jantjies, Beast, Chiliboy, Ntumbeni, Nkanyane, Kolisi and Mtembu to name but some."

He clearly refers to all those players as NOT being quota selections and that they would be deserving of a place in the Bok setup on merit alone.

I was just kindly pointing out to him that 90% of those names do not deserve to be there on merit. Same way I am kindly pointing out how silly you are for talking out before comprehending.

You see Rooi, its just another of the services I provide. No need to thank me.

It really has nothing to do with race. The same way I dont think Tim Whitehead or Johan Sadie to be Boks on merit. Nothing to do with race, just clearly pointing out that if all those players were selected, it would not be justified and would be quota selections.

Now Rooi, how stupid and small do you feel right now?