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FORUM / RUGBY /  One question - Why is a New Zealand ref chosen to ref the semi-final

One question - Why is a New Zealand ref chosen to ref the semi-final

Started by clevermike36 REPLIES423 VIEWS· 22 Jul 2014, 10:21
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 10:21
#1
22 Jul 2014, 10:21#1

between the Crusaders and the Sharks on Saturday?   That can only cause another reffing scandal if the referee even makes one mistake in the game.   A neutral referee in a crucial game like that is essential and surely they could have found one - even in Europe.


   

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Jul 2014, 11:13
#2
22 Jul 2014, 11:13#2
 not so clever mike....did'nt hear any complaints from you when Kiwi Steve Walsh reffed the last game between the Highlanders and the Sharks so whats with the song and dance now mate ???....Jackson played for the Chiefs for about five years so you yarpies should be fine (hehehehe)...
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
22 Jul 2014, 11:16
#3
22 Jul 2014, 11:16#3

Surely the selection is merit based - I guess that means kiwi refs are the most fair-minded - no worries boys all will be taken care of

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 11:32
#4
22 Jul 2014, 11:32#4
JW 
More fair-minded?????????????????  That remains to be seen.  There is bound to be an uproar afterwards - I will lay a b et on that.    
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 11:36
#5
22 Jul 2014, 11:36#5
Brycy
I did not complain - I merely asked a question/. 
Steven Walsh is at present settled in Australia and was effectively a neutral referee  - not a die-hard potential incompetent from New Zealand trained by Bryce Lawrence. 
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Jul 2014, 11:41
#6
22 Jul 2014, 11:41#6

 ...not so clever mike if your team puts in a big effort then I'm sure their fans won't crucify them afterwards for losing...


there is one critic though , and here's his photo...


 and I think he may be very damning of the Sharks performance regardless of whether they win or lose...especially of players with surnames like Alberts and Steyn...- I will lay a bet on that.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
22 Jul 2014, 12:15
#7
22 Jul 2014, 12:15#7

If you are worried you could ask the SA government to grant Jackson a temporary SA passport. Would that solve the problem?  Walsh is a kiwi with an Oz passport & you seemed happy with him.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
22 Jul 2014, 12:21
#8
22 Jul 2014, 12:21#8
Glen Jackson as far as I know has not been involved in any controversial issues and is most probably an ethical and honest ref but that's not the point.

Why create an enviroment for a problem when you don't need to???

Why not simply have a NEUTRAL REF...this is just plain stupid...honestly sometimes I rugby administrators are some of the thickest and dumbest guys that walk the surface of the earth!

Don't we have enough issues and contentions without creating breeding grounds for more???



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 12:25
#9
22 Jul 2014, 12:25#9
 Brycy - Beycy - Brycy
I am just needling and you fell for it.  
I have ample reason for the needling of Mozart  and Doffies - and some others - by going for Steyn and Alberts.   Problems are they swallow it hook, line and sinker and I can prove it statistically and otherwise that the two players mentioned are normally up to o good.  
Doffies is such a lark - just mention Morne Steyn, Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield and the Bulls Idiotic Supprter Club takes over - he goes bananas - and it is great fun   In this casse he is just funny trying to defend the indefensible.   
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Jul 2014, 12:49
#10
22 Jul 2014, 12:49#10
 ...not so clever mike who's pulling who's leg...just remember to take it like men when the Crusaders win on the weekend...no throwing yr toys out of the cot and spitting the dummy OK ?...
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jul 2014, 12:52
#11
22 Jul 2014, 12:52#11
 Brycy
I am suggesting a wibn by 12 points by the Crusaders - so I will not throw my toys out of the cot.     But that does not mean I am not going to go for Mozart and Doffies.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Jul 2014, 13:10
#12
22 Jul 2014, 13:10#12
 ...OK then, i'll talk to Jackson ... we had an arrangement for double that but i'll see what I can organise..
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
22 Jul 2014, 13:11
#13
22 Jul 2014, 13:11#13
Wrong post Dr Win...This is a Brycy /Mikie/Moz issue...the ref contention has really nothing to do with it...well lets try and try and be optimistic and be gracious let the most deserving side win on the day, irrespective who you support ....go Sharkies and overcome odds...hopefully Sharks by 12 or more.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
22 Jul 2014, 13:41
#14
22 Jul 2014, 13:41#14

Seb: lol Even if the topic is:

"One question - Why is a New Zealand ref chosen to ref the semi-final"

For sure this & every other topic must be about Steyn, Alberts, Bakkies, Victor, etc (no. 9)

AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
22 Jul 2014, 14:02
#15
22 Jul 2014, 14:02#15
 but if this goes against someone it will go clearly against the saders.
The only gameplan the sharks have, the only rugby they can play and the only way to win the match is imposing the phisicality of their foward pack. They are going to go out to the field with all the aggressiveness they can (and there's nothing wrong with it), trying to intimidate the saders and fringing the law. They will go as far as the ref will permit them.
Knowing the hunts that the SA fans use to begin when they don't like the performance of a ref, including death threads and all the bullying methods one can imagine, do you think that a NZ ref will dare to show a yellow card in the first half an hour? I doubt it so much. Glen Jackson will be under so much pressure when making calls against the shark that he probably allow them more than permitted and sharks will take advantage of it.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
22 Jul 2014, 14:18
#16
22 Jul 2014, 14:18#16
The ref's lot is a thankless job and there is always 2 sides to every story but there are those incidences which are pure incompetence and neglect by ref and those issues which on the otherside are disgraceful spectators sadly  generally yahoos from saffaland...hope this disgraceful incident will never happen again...good on you Richie for going to Mc Hugh's aid.

http://youtu.be/cugWIM6E39g



sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
22 Jul 2014, 18:32
#17
22 Jul 2014, 18:32#17
A neutral referee would be better to avoid controversy. Although not sure how good the refs from Australia are. Their best one is Steve Walsh and he is just an honoury ozzie. 
Although Glen Jackson reffed the game well for the Boks against Scotland. He likes to let a game flow and is quick to penalize players slowing down the rucks illegally. Glen Jackson is probably one of the better refs around. 
His style of reffing could favour either the Crusaders or the Sharks.  Crusaders for a high tempo game, and Sharks also for ball retention and quick clean ball from the rucks if their forwards are dominating but Richie an co are lying on the ball to slow things down. 
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
22 Jul 2014, 20:27
#18
22 Jul 2014, 20:27#18
 Without a doubt there should always be a neutral ref in place for first class rugby games.
We have to acknowledge that refs are only human and also have some form of home support that can influence crucial games.
So neutral it should be......for Refs.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
22 Jul 2014, 20:31
#19
22 Jul 2014, 20:31#19
I agree, especially for the qualifiers & finals. 
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
22 Jul 2014, 21:21
#20
22 Jul 2014, 21:21#20
with the history of ref blaming that comes hand in hand with being a saffa rugby fan, its  very logical to assume that our fellow saffa peeps are getting ready to play the blame the ref game, the one thing in rugby saffas dominate NZ in.
would be so much easier if saffas had genuine faith in their teams, but then results are the be all and end all, so i guess theres no reason to believe ,


but until the aussie refs are on par with their NZ and especially SA counterparts, i wouldnt want any aussie bar walsh reffing any NZ vs SA finals related match.

my list of prefernce regarding refs would be
1 c joubert
2 s walsh
3 c pollock
4 j peyper
5 g jackson

anyone of these guys would be able to handle the demands of a game of this magnitude.
theyre still human though (which is unfortunate, cos they will never be able to holiday in beautiful south africa without getting murdered), and will make the odd mistake or two.
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
22 Jul 2014, 21:53
#21
22 Jul 2014, 21:53#21
Glen Jackson was the Saders second choice.
Carter had asked for Poite, so he could protect his blindside
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
22 Jul 2014, 22:15
#22
22 Jul 2014, 22:15#22
 My ref ranking would be:1. Pollock2. Walsh3. Joubert4. Jackson5. Peyper.Only reason I have Joubert ahead of Jackson is my patriotism! After a long run of good Saffa refs, the cupboard is suddenly bare.
I like Jackson but he made a couple of blunders in one particular game. Can't recall the game exactly,  but do remember that I was surprised at the time as I really rated him and found it odd that he made so many mistakes.  That was last year already, can't recall any howlers this year.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2014, 00:02
#23
23 Jul 2014, 00:02#23
 This from a scientist:According to a South African sports scientist, the Sharks will run out in Christchurch ten points adrift of the Crusaders due to outside factors.

Dr Ross Tucker, who works at the Sports Science Institute of South Africa, believes Jake White's Sharks have hurdles ahead of them on Saturday.

"Looking over the results, simple home-ground advantage is worth about five points, while travel is worth about another five points," Tucker told sarugbymag.co.za ahead of the semi-final.

"The consequence of that is if you are going to beat a team away from home after travelling, you need to be around 10 points better than them. It makes a big difference."

Tucker also says the referee becomes a factor.

"The reason it is so difficult to win overseas is because of the physiology of what it takes to travel. You lose sleep during an uncomfortable night on a plane and later because of jet lag," he added.

"Added to that, you're away from home, the other team is familiar with the stadium and the conditions, and the referee is subconsciously on their side."


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA HOW NAIVE CAN YOU GET!!!! THIS POOR DOCTOR KNOWS ZIP ABOUT rugby. A yellow is worh about 10-14 points. Sharks can expect at least one yellow from the bent nz ref. Then the bias continues and before you know it you are 25 or popints adift very easily. 
Then you have travel fatigue and travel down under is worse than travelling here from all accounts. So you can easily realise the sharks need to be about 30 points better than teh ee crusties.COULD THE OAKS PLEASE STOP PRETENDING THERE IS EVEN THE REMOTEST CHANCE OF THE SHARKS GETTING A FAIR DEAL. SEB RATHER THE TRUTH THAN NICITIES. HOW OFTEN MUST WE BE ROBBED BLIND BEFORE THE PENNY DROPS.Its a total disgrace a nz ref in blowing this game.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
23 Jul 2014, 00:18
#24
23 Jul 2014, 00:18#24
Beeno: only 30  points? That is hardly a return on our investment
  Visualization: kiwis getting the job done
                  .  I told ya!!!
                                            
Well at least Noddy seems happy now mumbled the fair-minded kiwi
Disclaimer: scenes are taken from Noddy's fantasy world & have no resemblance to reality.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
23 Jul 2014, 01:23
#25
23 Jul 2014, 01:23#25
 Who is Dr Ross Tucker? Did he watch the quarter final of the Sharks vs Highlanders?
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Jul 2014, 11:02
#26
23 Jul 2014, 11:02#26
Sharks are a side that needs it's engines to be revved up otherwise they idle too badly and cut out.

Been studying Sharks psychology (lolz) since the days when Natal first won their first Currie Cup and Naas Botha said that it will take another 100 years to win their next.

So even the great Naas fell far short of his predictions and indeed Natal/Sharks have travelled well and long and given their fans lots of excitement and (heart attacks).

That's why I support the Sharks and continue to do so...I also, once upon a time was weepee nerd 'cause I lived in the Cape for 15 years and attended SACS in Newlands for a short spell when a boy but fortunately ended going to a real rugby school in Maritzburg in my senior years...their trophies being Keith Oxlee,Joel Stransky,Butch James, Jeremy Thomson and Peter Grant (who defected) in comparision to Percy Montgomery (who also defected the other way round.

Sorry off the point...the Sharks need jabs,pokes and brambles and adversity to play their best rugby so, in a way it augurs well...Sharkies we want this...one point or 15, it doesn't matter...just GET the job done.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2014, 11:49
#27
23 Jul 2014, 11:49#27
 A wee pee NERD!!! Seb my dear friend how far have you fallen!!!!! You do not know up from down!
I heard Mallet on TV saying the Sharks were up against it. One of his points was the ref favouring the home side and the fifty fifty calls going against the Sharks. He dared not say more. I would love to hear what these guys really think!
The kbbs have got in a nz ref to ensure their premier side are not again beaten by 13 men with much of the rugby world watching. Its so obvious one is amazed at their brazenness ! 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Jul 2014, 13:29
#28
23 Jul 2014, 13:29#28
Nick Mallet is a wee pee man who did his apprenticeship in rugby in Grahamstown (St Andrews...same school as Kanko)...never initially trusted him...fouled up badly against Teich and the hurtful part was Skinstad was also ex Natal and Hilton boy...and a baby who although talented was never as good and strong as Teich and certainly did not have the same strong character of Gary. Bobby never grew up and smashed his motorcar near Forries after some victory celebration...something Teich would have never been so weak to fall victim too.

Butttt....Nick has also grown up and changed and has become a good coach...he did wonders in the " Italian Job"....Italy although still a tailender in 6N has improved vastly in rugger...beaten France...a side that's beaten the AB's.

So yes I wonder what Nick really thinks or suspects (cannot say knows because nobody does) but I have a gutfeel that this is the Sharks hour and it's do or die !!!

You have come a long road and Pete's sake finish the job so that we can take the convicts by surprise...this should a stroll in the park...lolz




BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Jul 2014, 13:37
#29
23 Jul 2014, 13:37#29
 Seb I am not hopeful because I think the chancrs of he Sharks being shafted by the ref are very high. Then there is the travel bug and i hear beast is not playing.
But we saw the sharks winning with 13 me so it could happen.
You see Seb if the S tormers had not been robbed of a win against the hapless crusties the Sharks would be sitting at two on the table etc etc etc.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
23 Jul 2014, 21:37
#30
23 Jul 2014, 21:37#30

 Bean Brain, what's the difference between the Stormers and catfish.....?????



...Ones a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other one is a fish....haha...



OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
23 Jul 2014, 22:00
#31
23 Jul 2014, 22:00#31
Poor judgment call on SANZAR's part
Spiro's take:

The SANZAR media release came up on my laptop at 3.04am on Monday morning. My first reaction as I read it was, “Dammit, why is SANZAR trying to stuff up the Super Rugby finals.”

This reaction was provoked by the surprise announcement that a New Zealand referee, Glen Jackson, was going to referee the Crusaders-Sharks semi-final and a South African referee (but not Craig Joubert who will run a sideline) Jaco Peyper will handle the Waratahs-Brumbies semi-final.

After all the problems SANZAR had with local referees – referees from the country of one of the contesting teams – earlier this season, why would they go back to one for a crucial semi-final? The Reds and the Blues had their seasons stopped in their tracks with poor local referees in South Africa.

SANZAR had to sack a couple of referees and stand down others, in order to get on top of the problem the local referees were causing to the tournament.

Once this was done, the standard and quality of play in all three franchises was raised appreciably.

And with Joubert refereeing the Brumbies-Chiefs match and Steve Walsh, a New Zealander but now employed by the ARU, doing the job with the Sharks-Highlanders match, we were treated to two of the best finals in recent memory.

Particularly with the appointment of Jackson, SANZAR is jeopardising the integrity of the finals. But why?

One of the annoying things about SANZAR is that they do not explain decisions like this. They justify them by saying they choose the “best referees for a particular match.”

But why are Jackson and Peyper regarded as the best referees for the weekend’s finals?

Why were Joubert and Walsh considered the best referees last weekend, and not this weekend?

My objection to Jackson has nothing to do with his competency. He is a youngish referee who played rugby well at a high level. So he understands the players perspective which is an important consideration for a referee.

But local referee should never be involved in finals. This is the practice in rugby tournaments around the world for the last 20 years or so. Moreover, the last time this was tried by SANZAR, when Bryce Lawrence refereed the Reds-Crusaders final in 2011, it was a disaster.

Lawrence was so eager to prove he was unbiased, he gave penalties against the Crusaders – including a penalty against Richie McCaw that the Reds converted to win the final – that should have gone the other way.

No referee should be placed in the situation where his decisions have to be justified within the prism of whether he is benefiting or harming a side whose country he resides in.

Already, South African experts are making comments about the possibility of the Sharks being affected by the refereeing. Here is the sports scientist Dr Ross Tucker of the Sports Science Institute of South Africa making the claim that the referee could be a factor “that makes things difficult for the team playing away from home.”

Dr Tucker argues, too, that the Sharks are already ten points down with the home advantage worth five points and travel being worth another five.

Well, who knows. The type of rugby played by the Sharks, Jakeball, is not affected too much by home ground advantage. The Sharks won matches this season in Australia and New Zealand. They also defeated the Crusaders at Christchurch even though they played most of the match with 14 players.

The referee, incidentally, was the Australian Rohan Hoffman. He did the right thing. But would a local referee react the same way? The inevitable calls  from the Sharks of ‘we wuz robbed’ would have, in my view, concentrated the mind of a local referee to be slightly more lenient.

The Sharks rely mightily on Bismarck du Plessis, who is arguably the best, most imposing forward in world rugby right now. They will also rely on the referee giving them plenty of penalties to kick for goal and to get up their driving mauls from lineouts, which were penalised several times by Walsh.

The Opta Facts reveal the Sharks allow oppositions the least amount of possession – only 15 minutes in a match – of any other team.

Against that, the Crusaders concede fewer penalties any other team in the tournament, an average of 10 a game.

Both teams play structured rugby. Both teams have strong set pieces. But the Crusaders have a better attack, and a greater willingness to attack, especially when the Fijian monster Nemani Nadolo, who has scored 10 tries this season, is playing.

I would expect the Crusaders to win this match and set up a final against the Waratahs.

Again we go to the Opta Facts for some statistical insights. The Waratahs are the best Super Rugby team in 2014 for: most carries, metres gained, offloads made, passes completed and clean breaks. They have averaged the most points scored (30) and the fewest conceded (17).

The Brumbies have a try difference, for and against, of +14. The Waratahs have +31.

These are the statistics of a complete team, which the Waratahs are.

I have also been impressed with the fact that coach Michael Cheika is adamant that the Waratahs are going to play their attacking, running game despite the emotions and intensity and importance of the occasion.

My contention is that coaches of tournament-winning Super Rugby franchises invariably bring new systems of playing the game and a coherency and clarity to the play of their teams that make them impossible to break during the finals. These systems can be as different as the Bulls system was to that of the Crusaders in their glory days.

I was most impressed with a brilliant analysis of the Waratahs attacking system that Scott Allen produced inThe Roar a week or so ago. He showed that Cheika had refined the Crusaders system of having two lines of potential runners from phase play by having the first line coming up in the shape of an arrow head.

The leading runner had an inside and outside runner just inside his left and right shoulders. This formation, as Allen demonstrated, forced the defensive line to provide more defenders than they would if only one runner was coming forward. It also gave the runner and catcher options where he might distribute his next pass.

Throughout this season, the Waratahs have been able to get the ball wide, with Israel Folau and Adam Ashley Cooper making breaks almost at will. Scott Allen has shown why this has happened.

Can Stephen Larkham devise tactics to close down the arrowhead play?

This is what coaching is all about. If he can, the Brumbies will provide the Waratahs with a stern contest.

Larkham also has to hold his nerve and allow the team to play the Macquee-ball game, which has worked so well in the last two weeks.

Laurie Fisher, the Brumbies forwards coach, has done a terrific job with the side’s phase play. The Brumbies win 96 per cent of their rucks, the best of any team. This means that if they get momentum going, they are a hard side to stop.

And talking about momentum, Henry Speight ran for 134 metres in the first half against the Chiefs. The Chiefs’ inability to keep him in check was a significant factor in their loss. Can Rob Horne hold Speight? And can Spieght, who missed an easy one-one-one tackle last weekend, hold Rob Horne?

This brings us back to Jaco Peyper. On Wednesday on The Roar there was a fascinating discussion on the referees for the semi-finals. One of the comments made stuck with me. Peyper, the Roarer noted, was a‘momentum shift’ type of referee. He is inclined to give out penalties to one particular side in batches.

This has the effect of creating a momentum for a struggling side to carry it an unlikely victory. And here is another statistic that may or may not be significant in the end. The Brumbies have scored more tries from set pieces, lineouts (25) and scrums (12), than any other team in the tournament.

If they get a flow of penalties, then the Brumbies know how to convert them into points from the subsequent set piece play.

Despite all of this I am optimistic that all four teams will play really well in these semi-finals. They are all in their different ways terrific sides. And at the end of the day we’ll be looking at a Sydney final between the Waratahs and the Crusaders.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
23 Jul 2014, 22:10
#32
23 Jul 2014, 22:10#32
A stat posted on The Roar, you would think SANZAR could easily do the same homework:  " statistically the Crusaders have won 8/8 since 2012 with Jackson officiating, and SA sides have only won 1/8 since 2012 under Jackson, the Stormers beat the Blues in 2012. The Sharks have never won under Jackson"

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
23 Jul 2014, 22:17
#33
23 Jul 2014, 22:17#33
Look out Glen you are being watchedBut seriously the best team will win. I would stop the pre-ga me whining & save reactions until after the game.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
23 Jul 2014, 22:26
#34
23 Jul 2014, 22:26#34
 Our friend Spiro is a bit of a hypocrite.

He says this:

"Moreover, the last time this was tried by SANZAR, when Bryce Lawrence refereed the Reds-Crusaders final in 2011, it was a disaster.

Lawrence was so eager to prove he was unbiased, he gave penalties against the Crusaders – including a penalty against Richie McCaw that the Reds converted to win the final – that should have gone the other way."


The way I read it, Lawrence was to blame for the Crusaders losing to the Reds.


Then he goes on to say:

"Already, South African experts are making comments about the possibility of the Sharks being affected by the refereeing. Here is the sports scientist Dr Ross Tucker of the Sports Science Institute of South Africa making the claim that the referee could be a factor “that makes things difficult for the team playing away from home.”

Dr Tucker argues, too, that the Sharks are already ten points down with the home advantage worth five points and travel being worth another five."

What is good for the goose is apparently not necessarily good for the gander, is it?

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
23 Jul 2014, 23:26
#35
23 Jul 2014, 23:26#35
Its not whining JW, more disappointment that SANZAR really screwed this up by not having a neutral ref in a playoff game. They created an issue where there never ever should have been one. If Sharks lose the hand-wringing and ref blaming will undoubtedly be endless and it puts the whole match under a cloud. The ref is under pressure because he knows every decision will be analyzed with his bias, real or not, in the backs of everyone's minds including his own.
It could have so easily been avoided.


 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
23 Jul 2014, 23:51
#36
23 Jul 2014, 23:51#36
Oimatey: My post was not in response to what you wrote. I agree they screwed up. It would have been so easy to ensure we had refs that were not from the same country as the two teams playing. 
My comment was more addressed to those who immediately say "it's a conspiracy", etc. Some of these individuals will even harp on about Jackson if the sharks win. If the sharks lose we will be treated to even more whining even if neutral commentator say it was a well reffed game.
I just hope we get two great games of rugby like we had  last weekend. Two kiwi teams lost & I didn't read much about it being "the refs fault".
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
24 Jul 2014, 00:40
#37
24 Jul 2014, 00:40#37
 Of course its a conspiray! Is there another ref where the SA record is as bad or crusties record as good?As Oimatey says:
statistically the Crusaders have won 8/8 since 2012 with Jackson officiating, and SA sides have only won 1/8 since 2012 under Jackson,

What is there that any oak, no matter how dumb, cant understand. Crusties dont lose when Glen refs. SA win 1 in 8.so Sa sides win 1 in 16 games with Glen Blowing!!!!Who better for the crusties to have? Tell is there a more favourable ref the crusties that cold have been selcted. Name him.This twit must have been the ref who diddled the Stormers against the Crusties?
Of course it has been arranged by nz how gullible does an oak get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course lets hope that each side gets afair deal but any realist will know ts avery slim chance.
Beeno calling it as it very unfortunately is. 
— END OF THREAD —

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