Pathetic Junior Boks

The hype was overwhelming and the result was perhaps to be expected.   I thought the Junior Boks were disgraced by utterly poor handling.  Lets look at the players performances:-

15   -     5 out of 10

14  -      8 out of 10

13 -       3 out of 10

12  -      4 out of 10

11 -       1 out of 10

10 -       2 out of 10

  9  -       1 out of 10

  8  -       3 out of 10

  7  -       3 out of 10

  6   -       3 out of 10

  5   -       2 out of 10

  4   -       2 out of 10

  3   -       2 out of 10

  2   -       5 out of 10

  1. -        1 out of 10

With that lot the question is who is the weakest link - there were so many weak ones it would require a team replacement.     Full back OK - but often out of position.

Jordaan made two silly mistakes - but otherwise he was the best SA player out there.

Pat Howard - what is the hype about this one.   He was tackled three times and three times there was a turnover against him.   He was pathetic - I ask again what was all the hype about.

Jantjies was good in kicking at goal - pathetic as a flyhalf - he can be said to cause the loss of the game.

Griesel - the worst scrummy I have seen for years - no idea about passing the ball.  He, number 11  and Kitshoff was in a race to prove that they were the worst players in the team,   Kitshoff won by a short head - all three were idiotic in their play.

Then we lost in the line outs and the loosies were poor.  Bad forward display

One last thing about Kitshoff.  I think there is no way that yhe would ever make the Springbok team - over-hyped huge bugger-upper.

Sapster hyped up the side and mislead us - blame him for the let down.

Agree re Kitshoff he was nothing special.

The irish pack outweighed us by 3 kg. Only in the second half did things get a bit better. That scrummie was putrid , we had some skinny little backs and two smallish flankers.

I think the side will improve so hopefully this is not the end.

Hahahahaha....so the guys the Sapp was telling us are way better than Jean et al, couldn't beat the Irish youngsters, playing at home. What a laugh.

That was so frustrating to watch, at one stage i thought bobby skinstad was going to go done on the field and slap that scrumhalf himself.Just a very badly coached team, it looked like they got together the day before.

What an embarrassingly inept performance.

We clearly have talent in the team, but F me they didnt look like they had been together very long.

And that fat F'ing bastard Kebble... he scrums like a tiger, but he looks like a palooka in the loose. I was looking sooo forward to seeing Guy Kebbles son play. But what a poefter!

That must be the worst srumhalf ever to don the Bok U20 jersey. Griessel is think his name was? The sub was quite a lot better. Better decision making and tactical play.

Paul  Jordaan... OMG! Please put him back at center. He has no idea on the wing!

Our captain... I dont think i saw him once in the 2nd half!

The only standout was our number 6. Odendaal or something. There is a spark inside of him!

Mike, I appreciate your cynicism. Too much of this lemming like support is going on......this clown Heyneke wants to reinvent kick and chase. Hell the latest rumour is we are going to drop a brilliant player like Lambie for kick and chase specialist Kirchner.

We keep losing in the sevens, we keep losing in these U20 tournaments, we have won 20% of our TN matches in the last few years.....and all we hear is she'll be right mate.

Our rugby could be  heading back to the dark ages ....it's important for fans to express their frustration...you do it very well.

Mike try get your facts straight for you clearly know stuff all about the game. Howard and Serfontein were the only shinning lights in that backline, with the little ball they got they broke the advantage line. Howard never got turned over you gimp, he went to ground and had stuff all support from his fellow players - do you know anything about rugby - clearly not?

Beenkop, dont speak shit, I never said anything about this team, I mentioned some good players in it, players you have seen like Kitshoff, Ruan Botha, Willemse, Jordaan and Steph du Toit. I have seen players like Howard and Serfontein and they are class acts..........sadly the issue with this side is that they are very poorly coached, there is no imagination at all on attack, the ball is just passed down the line hoping for the best - there are no angled runners, no loop arounds - its all very pedestrian. What the hell are Theron and Brendan Venter doing?

Then we have the issue of sub standard players, the two 9's were pathetic, as was the 11, 15, 3, 2, 6 and 8. Jantjies at 10 is not in his brothers class. Kebble came on and he made a big impact in the scrums, why the hell did he not start at 3. This side has far too many passengers and a damn poor coach, the same coach who took a side containing Ulrich Beyers, Jordaan, Mjekevu, Sithole, Taute, Frans Venter, Goosen, Mbonambi, Marcel v/d Merwe, Schonnert, Etzebeth, Kolisi and Arno Botha to 5th spot in last years comp - next you stupid clowns will be telling me this list of players are poor.

Get some perspective for a change instead of mouthing off about reality you clearly know nothing about.

I have been pleading for a comprehensive approach to the game.   The key is for the game to be a 15 member display with variation in attacks.   The Juiniors tonight played an 9 man game whilst Griesel was around and not one of his kicks or breaks showed anything but rubbish.   When the ball went to Janthies he was worst than Griesel - his service to the back line was pathetic.   

This is exactly the danger with Meyer's style of play.   We know that Hougaard flopped in the last five games of the Bulls and that Steyn has no idea about back line play.   To build the game around the forwards and two back line players will backfire 80% of the time.   

The poroblem was that the back line of the Juniors was disfunctional and with a ten man game plan Meyer's tactics will also backfire badly.   If he select the most useless full back in SA at present - and I mean Kirchner - the first test will be lost and the outcome would be a bad start for a career.

By the way - I do believe that players like Griesel and Howard has potentially the capacity to perform - but pathetic coaching was noticeable.    Problem is it is virtually the first time they played in a widely screened scenario and what we saw - will stick in our minds for years to come.    At this stage they are really palookas and they will remain so for a long time to come.   

Saffex

I was watching Howard with a magnifying glass hoping that he would make a difference to a pathetic display.   He was like a headless chicken and the turnovers were the result not of the fact there was no support - but the fact that he was tackled and turned - he conseuqnetly could not place the ball.  If it happened once it was perhaps acceptable - but three times the same thing made me want to vomit.

Serfontein was pathetic - he crashballed a number of times and it did not work - did it?   For the rest nothing - but in essence that could have been the result of the pathetic service they got from the half-backs.

I do accept one issue mentioned by you and tht is the fact that Kebble made an impact on our scrummaging - but one would have accepted that from Kitshoff - a player with Super 15 expereience.   Kitshoff has been poor during recent Super 15 games and it was perhaps of his unavailability that the Stormers props functioned better against the Bulls.

Lets look at the potential of players in the squad - not only at their pathetic performance last night.   The numbers mentioned by you (11,  15,  3,  2,  6 and 8)  have really no future in rugby.  Add to that lot the line out flops 4 and 5, as well as the village idiot 9.   Did number 7 actually play last night?   He must have since he was captain and led the side onto the field.   What the hell was he there for - he definitely did nothing as capatain and as player.   Add him to your list as well.    No 10 made up the 11th useless bugger in the team.

That leaves four players that tried a bit.   I will give Howard the benefit  of the doubt - he may yet develop as a player - but he needs coaching and some idea about tactics.   I think the best player was in fact Jordaan -  but he was alone amongst 11 inept and useless buggers who played as individuals and not as a  team.   Then Serfontein could also perform - but we need a functioning half back combination.  This Jantjies is a newer version of Earl Rose - absolutely and totally useless.   The other player with some potential is number 1.

We have a few good players in the junior category - but if that lot is the basis for our future teams - we are indeed from a rugby point of view doomed.   

By the way - where did they find no 11 - he was pathetic under the high ball - never caught one.  

No Mike, Griesel has no capacity to perform, he is piss poor and has a pedantic service much like McLeod of the Sharks, winding up before he passes. He and the sub 9 were pathetic and complete liabilities. I know we lost Luithers before the comp started but, hell there must be better 9's about, not to mention 15's, 11's, 2's, 3', 6's and 8's about - are these jokes the best in the country at this age? Surely not - given Theron missed Kitshoff, Marcel Coetzee, Ruan Botha, JP du Plessis and Willemse last year, chances are he has missed a few stars this year.

Obviously it was the luck of the Irish and all that malarky. No doubt the baby boks will bounce back and kick our butts as Saffex predicted. Have a little faith in your team perhaps - sounds like you've already written off the springbok team of the future before the comp has even started. Kinda undermining and not so clever mike posting shyte like that after only day one.

 This was an extremely dissapointing effort. The Baby boks are the physically more imposing side. We have bigger stronger and faster players. But we were bossed around in the loose by a smaller irish pack. Our backline players think that with size and power you can overpower anything. not true, you need some brains and skill as well. they just chrge up, the ball got to the wings once!!!!!. We got two tries against us off chargedowns, don't these guys have brains to think that if one thing don't work try another. Our try that we got was from some intelligent forward hit and drive play. why could we not play like that all game. Keep the ball hit and drive then switch and swing it wide. We have the physical pack to do it.

If i can take one positive from this it is you kebble. This kid should go play tighthead. Physically he is a monster. When he came on we bossed their scrum. He is so powerful that even with a bent back technically unsound crumaging he still scrummed his opposite number into the ground. as soon as that little texchnicality gets sorted out this kid will be a powerhouse. i would play him at tighthead, he is immensly powerfull in the scrum but a bit less mobile, that apells tighthead not loosehead.

This comes from playing 9 man rugby without brains.  I thought we have some good youngsters coming through - but they were pathetic.   There was no team play - a few individual efforts that did not lead to anyhting.   Coaching needs to be done professionally.    By the way - where did the selector find the next replica of Earl and the banana peel at no 11?    Really pathetic.   Then there was Griesel at scrummie.   Can they sent this bugger somewhere - since he has no ball sense and no idea about being a scrummie.   Maybe he should join meisiekind in the hair style stakes. 

 @ Saffex - Rarely do i comment on something to underline where i clearly disagree, but this one really needs to be said looking at one of your statements above If you could please explain it better as I am flabbergasted at this.

" I have seen players like Howard and Serfontein and they are class acts..........sadly the issue with this side is that they are very poorly coached, there is no imagination at all on attack, the ball is just passed down the line hoping for the best - there are no angled runners, no loop arounds - its all very pedestrian. What the hell are Theron and Brendan Venter doing?"

Firstly let me outline my argument and explain why I need some explanation on your thinking here. 

You claim that there is no imagination on attack (true yes) However you blame the coaching for the non imaginitive gameplan. (true to a point yes) but to outline what i need to bring into context here. You cannot coach Imagination. Players are either imaginitive or not, and this is directly proportional to their intelligence. The less imaginitive they are the less inteeligent they are. You can however coach all imagination out of a player, If this is your argument yes i agree, that all imagination can be coached out of them, we call it overcoaching and a lot of South African coaches have been guilty of it in the past. However if you mean that they should coach the imagination into them sorry that is uncoachable.

 Just asking to better understand your argument.

"This was an extremely dissapointing effort. The Baby boks are the physically more imposing side. We have bigger stronger and faster players. But we were bossed around in the loose by a smaller irish pack. Our backline players think that with size and power you can overpower anything. not true, you need some brains and skill as well. they just chrge up, the ball got to the wings once!!!!!."

Ek what in the world makes you think we had a bigger pack. They outweighed us 3 kilos. They played three big loosies and in the first half won the physical battle. We had some very slim weak backs. That 11 was a shocker besides a daft scrumhalf.

Fact is when we are matched physically we tend to lose because our skills levels are down on other sides. I cannot but wonder how good the preparartion was.However our friend Brycy makes his first  good sice joining the board!!!!!  Dont write off the side after one close loss against a good Irish side. Lets see if they can improve.

Ou Saffex hyped us up to much. I thought we were a team of world beaters after all he said -seemed even nz were easy meat. There are some good players in our team for sure but some very ordinary ones as well. Good to see Brendon Venter there, if anyone can sort out the mess he can. This guy is a real brain. He and Rassie should be the next Bok coaches.

Kebble is a massive guy. Little tall for a prop perhaps. Given some severe training we may have something here.

Kitshoff as Mike said has been fading. Not surprising for a youngster having started in all the Stormers games bar this last one. Perhaps he should play off the bench in the next game and get a bit of a rest. It may just revive the guy.

I think this loss will motivate the side.

@ beeno-

Starting packs for SA v Ireland:

Steven Kitshoff

10/02/1992(20)

183

114

Western Province

Prop

Mark Pretorius

09/06/1992(19)

176

102

Golden Lions

Hooker

Allan Dell

16/03/1992(20)

185

112

Sharks

Prop

Paul Willemse

13/11/1992(19)

200

127

Golden Lions

Lock

Pieter Steph Du Toit

20/08/1992(19)

200

115

Sharks

Lock

Shaun Adendorff

28/05/1992(20)

185

95

Blue Bulls

Flanker

Fabian Booysen

21/03/1992(20)

190

102

Golden Lions

Flanker

Wian Liebenberg

31/08/1992(19)

189

100

Blue Bulls

Flanker

Tadhg Furlong

14/11/1992(19)

184

118

Clontarf

Prop

Des Merry

10/03/1992(20)

187

112

Clontarf

Prop

Niall Scannell

08/04/1992(20)

185

106

Dolphin

Hooker

Iain Henderson

21/02/1992(20)

199

116

Queen's University Belfast

Lock

Tadhg Beirne

08/01/1992(20)

198

103

Lansdowne

Lock

Jordon Coghlan

30/10/1992(19)

192

108

University College Dublin

Flanker

Jack Conan

29/07/1992(19)

190

110

Old Belvedere

Number 8

Conor Gilsenan

10/09/1992(19)

189

98

Mullingar / University College Dublin

Flanker

 South africa

Full length : 1508/8 = 188.5cm

Full Weight: 867/8 = 108.4kg

Tight 5: 570/5 = 114kg

 Ireland

Full length : 1524/8 = 190.5

Full Weight: 871/8 = 108.8kg

Tight 5: 555/5 = 111kg

Very interesting to read every post about how poor the Baby Boks were, they didn't do this/they didn't do that etc etc and not one post congratulating the winning team IRELAND !!  In case you didn't notice, there were 2 sides on the pitch, and the guys in white were worthy winners.

Well said COSH!

We fail to acknowledge a good performance if we are on the losing side.

Ireland were supreme. They also look so cohesive as a unit, unlike our plodders

Their flyhalf looks like the real deal! Very composed and fantastic decision making.

The only one that impressed me from the BB side was Shaun Adendorf. He looks like he has a massive future ahead of him.

Mike your take on Howard and Serfontein is the biggest load of bullshit I have read. You clearly dont have a clue do you and I'll leave it at that. 

Saffex

Please -  I may have been watching another game,   What did Serfointein and Howard do to get an6y plaudits - I only saw poor play on their part?   However, I did give them a small chance of improvement - but the memory of last nights game will linger for a long time.

Ek in answer to your question, no I am not asking the coaches to coach imagination into the players, its not possible as you say. I am questioning the fact that the game plan seems to exclude any imaginative play. At no point did the backs do anything other than pass the ball down the line.

The coaches instruction should have included variety - players running angles, wings/fullbacks coming off the shoulder, decoy runners, loop arounds, skip passes, you name it - we saw nothing but pedestrian stuff from 9 and 10 - no imagination at all.

We have seen footage of players like Serfontein, Howard and Jordaan - these kids are wonderfully balanced runners, but they were asked to play like donkies - not aided by poor players around them, none more so than the two 9's on display. That fullback was a joke, the kid looks skeletal

Saffex

You did not comment on my last question.   However, one further thing - what about the number 11 I saw on the field.   He was not decorative - he was utterly useless.  Agree? 

Hahahahaha....so the guys the Sapp was telling us are way better than Jean et al, couldn't beat the Irish youngsters, playing at home. What a laugh.

What else did you expect from a wind-up merchant.  Rugby is probably not his forte...

luna you seem to be yapping at my heels, you looking for a bone, you waste of space?

Fash while one has to acknowledge Irelands good play there were aspects of ours that really were poor. One expects better from the supposedly cream of the crop.

Mike, if you knew what you were talking about you will realise that the centres only got ball in traffic and all they could do was muscle their way forward, which they did. The service was so poor from 9 & 10 that by the time 12 got the ball there was no space at all - crash ball was all they could do and both centres did this well, they were physical enough to do that.

Howard got isolated as he never had support, hell knows where the 6 and 8 were, did the 8 actaully play?

Serfotien and Howard are class acts, there is no questioning this, but they cant be expected to perform miracles with such poor service and such poor backs around them. Hell Jordaan a proven S15 success even looked worse than Howard and Serfontien, that's how bad things were. Hell we all know how good Kitshoff is but he struggled as he had such a poor hooker and 3 alongside him. How stupid is Theron to not start with Kebble and what on earth do they see in that hooker, he is useless, he reminds me of that useless Bezuidenhout playing for the Lions.

The following players should not be in that Baby Bok side as they are useless: 15, 11, 10, both 9's, 2 both 3's, 6 and 8

 thanks for clearing that up Saffex. Regarding Dill Leyds. You complain about him bieng so bad. As you say there is alot of footage on youtube for you to go and watch. the kid has the X factor. Given he did not have a good game, but the same applies to Serfontein and Howard. However the worse game was from Rhule. I just hope that Dawie starts with the other kid that came on in Rhule's place. now that is a star in the making. 

I cant see a 76kg fullback making much of an impact at this level of rugby, same with Mbovane who came on for Rhule, the kid is just far too small

 Yeah i know your oppinion on that. I however prefer to look at rather more than size. And the kid has awareness and rugby intelligence in heaps. but as we have in the past lay down me and you have different oppinions on that. be it as it may. i just like to see a bit more skill in our guys and i have no problem with a big guy with skill, plus he can then cross tha davatage line. blah blah same onld argument. Still the point remains the kid is not worthless, if he was he would n't be there, he along with 14 other guys had a crap game. And yes I don't think howard and serfontein had good games, as they where two of the main culprits for just bashing it up. This does hoever not lay all the blame on them, it lays all the blame on all of them.

As for about 10 minutes they played good rugby and utilised their strenghts and scored. Why could they not have done that for 80 minutes is the question. Not who played worse than who or who doesn't belong there. 

I agree with you that overcoaching might have been the culprit. Let us hope Brendon Venter Dawie Theron and Nazeem Adams start to give the kids some freedom inside the gameplan. The other question however reamians. If they had orders to play that way why did they play differently in the 10 minutes they scored? did they then not listen to the coach? And the other question remains, when they did see that this was effective, why did they then not continue with that. this is a call the captain can make on the field. then would that then not have been Liebenbergs call on the field?

Well reality is, our try was not scored through imaginative play, it was crash bash stuff, with Willemse muscling his way over.

Serfontein and Howard got ball in traffic, so had no option but to bash it up. The service they got from 9 and 10 was pedestrian

 correct it was crash and bash stuff. however it was also the only time in the game where we attampted keeping the ball and hitting it up through the phases. All the other times we attemptd to kick it away :) no ideas where to clearly towards our own tryline as it was chrged down. The argument i wanted to make the this was a desition that could be made on the field. And imagintive enough as it was something else they attempted that worked.

Saffex

i may have put it differently - but you now seem to get where I started off from.   I SAID BOTH SERFONTEIN AND HOWARD PERFORMED BADLY - but I added that it was due to the service they got from  "Earl Rose's duplicate" Jantjies and Griesel.   They tried - but they did not succeed in anything -  so I would give them a chance to improve  - although i said the memory of last night will linger for a long time.   

I have a problem though - If the 10 man rugby planned by Meyer fail as badly as happened last night - is there another option available and would he change his game plan?   i do not think so - and I still say losing Saturday is on the cards.  

Mike, I disagree with you, they did not play badly unless you expect a centre to create havoc in traffic. At no point did they operate in space, so they had no option other than to crash it up.

Ek have you got the wieghts of the baby boks backline. i need some facts after all the hype ex ou sapster.

I was looking forward tp seeing Pat Howard play. On this perfomace he looked nothing special as sapster had led me to believe.

I do understand that its hard to operate in a dysfunctional team so I am NOT drawing any hard and fast conclusions. But what excatly is Pat Howard so good at  . Is he very fast or very skillful or very strong. Listening to sapster he seemed he was all of these things and the next Jean De VuIliers!! Ditto Serfontein.

I have also to say those black backs were very poor espepcially that number 11. The scrummie as a hatter too.

It all leaves me wondering was ou sapster smoking something very strong or was this a terribly off day?
If the side plays like this against nz thye will get walloped dispite ou sapsters comments. I saw some of the game where they thrashed Samoa.

Beenkop, your post serves only to confirm how stupid you are - keep it up son!

Front up sapster, didn't you say we would beat the abs. On this form it wont happen. Perhaps they will improve?  

Beeno jaundiced by being led astray by ou sapster! Had high hopes when I switched on to watch baby boks - never expected that showing!!

Yes I was joking with Bryc dumbo!!!!

 You did say that South Africa had more young talent that any other country, has that changed or does South Africa simply have the worst coaches?

I was talking in the S15 poohie get with the programme. Of course the majority of the good ones in the Baby Boks squad are involved in the S15. Not my place to comment on the Baby Boks as a whole I only know 8 of the 28, get it?