Paulse scored 3 tries in 12 tests against NZ

Jonah Lomu scored no tries in 12 tests against the Boks....some of them playing against Paulse. Breyton was fast, but he was faster on the field because he had vision/ rugby software. Physically he was no match for the giant Lomu. But he always managed to get between the passer and Lomu. Jonah was literally starved for ball when he played Breyton.

The point of all of this is, you can't judge a rugby player simply by his physical attributes.....the great players see the game sooner. Matfield in the lineouts, George Smith when the ball hits the deck, Joe Cool when the offside wing cut was on, Cullen ghosting up to the line.

We give too little credit for vision and competitive spirit and too much credit for physical potential. Pierre Spies is the poster boy for this mistake.

It's 2013 wake up, Paulse was years back, the game has moved on.

Two questions - name a Paulse size player playing test match rugby in 2012 at wing, fullback or centre?

And the choice between Paulse and Lomu for your side - who would you select? Take your time KKK!!!

Saffex

I do not think size is everything = players need skills as a starting poiny and backline players need speed as well.    The talk ia about what happened in the past and the theoretical question asked who was better Lomu ofr Paulse.  The answer is obvious Pulse had the skills and speed - Lomu had bulk.   Lomu was poor when he had tto runn back to cover kicks and not effective when he is properly tackled - Paulse had ten times his ball sense.  My choice would obviously be Paulse        

Lets look at centers and wings specifically in SA at present and start off with the centers:-

Centers

De Villiers - diminished speed and skill sets - he virtually ambled along when he gets balls and not attack by running at speed - no off-loading skills and question marks about his passing skills. .  

Francois Steyn -  bulk and NO skills in evidence anymore.  No off-loading skills, deficient passing skills and ambling along before crashballing making virtually no progress over the gain line.

Olivier - bit more speed before crashnalling than either De Villiers or Steyn showed this year by in the process making further advances over the gain line.

Taute - bulk but no skill set at center. should never have been selected as a center in the first instance.

De Jongh - small and without any skill set - a really disastrous selection  

Our center performances were mediocre this year. The big centers produced nothing of real value and the small one less than nothing - a real disaster.   We should have a combination of size, skills and speed - size alone means nothing without the other two elements.

Wings

We have one smallish  wing (Habana) and one bigger one (Pietersen),  There is not much to choose between them - despite differences in size both are very good wings.   I would say Habana has a bi of an advantahe on the skills and speed side - whilsy Pietersen has stronger running abilities.   Size here made no real difference and we should be delighted to have such good wings around.

Conclusion

Size really  is meaningless without ball playing skills and should only be the norm if there are skills and ball sense included - iif the latter two elements are missing - size alone is meaningless.

 Oh sure the wings are much bigger  than Jonah. Tell you what Dumpy Dave, as soon as you think of one be sure to let me know....hahaha.

Saffex - rugby related question now.

So are you saying Paulse would not make it at international level today if he performed like he did in his prime?

What about Hougaard, Shane Williams, Jeff Wilson and a few others. Paulse was some years ago but not that long ago. Rugby has not changed that much in the last 10 to 15 years. Players are no bigger and no faster than they were then. You go tell Andre Joubert, James Small, Henry Honiball, Christian Cullen, Jeff Wilson, Matt Burke, Larkham and the likes that rugby has moved on since they played and they will laugh at you.

Are you saying that players of today are bigger, faster and better than they were in Paulse's era?

boklogic

You will not get a real answer from Saffex on this one.   He believes that bigger players is the answer - he asumes that because they are bigger - they shall have the required skills.  The latter is obviously utter crap - bigger players often enough lack the skills to be effective.

Since speed is also not a requirement - in Saffex's book size only remains the criterium for selection.

According to him the centers cannot make any creative play anymore and without saying it - the result can only be two outcomes according to his theory namely- kicking and crashballing.   He outsight condems the kicking away of balls, but goes lyrcal how good the centes are when they effectvely crashballing continuously - that is  if they are his favoured players - otherwise he  condemns any other player doing the same.   

What makes the whole scenario that much funnier - he loves to move his favoured big players into positions where they are less effective than they were previously and then build fairy castles about how good they were.

Not much logic in the whole argument - is there?   .  

 Hence my argument, is this man living in the real world or is he really as dilusional as he comes across. You have to know, its either his way or its a dumb, dim witted or idiotic.

It probably for the best that his posts contain nothing of actual substance because lets face it, this is a rugby board and he knows very little about rugby. He keeps saying we need to stop being conservative and transform yet he wants the crash ball shit..Makes no sense. As I say, let him stick to swearing at us if it gives him a little power trip and make him feel 10 foot tall and bullet proof because his posts on rugby possess just as little intelligence!

KKK, I know you are a thick prick but try catch a wake up or better still read the post. I asked for Paulse sized players dumbass not Lomu size - just answer the question

"........because his posts on rugby possess just as little intelligence!"....I'm glad someone agrees with me, read carefully and it's plain to see his posts are bankrupt of substance.  He's a Rudolph Straueli type, totally dependent on a huge squad and hoping to find a miracle player in the lot. Little does he understand that so much depends on enriching talent with skill and intellectual property. Eddie Jones is a fine example of what I'm saying, who can forget how within the space of 6 weeks he transformed a static Bok backline.

With Dave Stupid it's all about size, size and more size.....he'd have Bakkies Botha types in every position given half a chance. Then again when one talks about Wynand Olivier as being a class act......Jirre!!!...and Wail-on Murray as a Bok centre then ...siestog.....I can undersatnd why he was branded Dave Stupid.

Boklog, you keep confirming what an ignorant idiot you are when it comes to things rugby and life in general.

Are you stupid enough to believe the game has not moved on from the days of Paulse and Wilson etc, what bloody world do you live in - how stupid are you?

I am not interested in players who played 2 years ago, I asked for examples of small players playing test rugby now - ie in 2012, get it?

As for Paulse its well documented that I was no big fan, great with ball in hand but a complete liability defensively. Are you saying that you would select Paulse ahead of JP and Habana today if Paulse was in his prime - what a joke.

Hougaard is 91kg and not a wing, he is a scrumhalf. Scrumhalf and flyhalf are about the only positions where we still see small guys on the field. You just dont see them on the wing, fullback or centre. Williams is history, Wales now have two giants on the wing in Cuthbert and North - get with the times.

Look here dom Denise, we know rugby is not your thing, but have a grab at this.

Yeah glad you acknowledge that Eddie Jones had to be brought in to save useless Jakes bacon

As for Olivier and Murray, I see you follow in your masters footsteps here. No matter how many times I try correct you thick pricks regarding the facts on these players, you keep bringing up the same bullshit everytime, forcing me once again to expose you for the idiot and liar you are. I suppose it does act as a reminder of what a plank you are.....oh well.

I dont mind you quoting me on my takes on players, but if you are going to do that, at least you should strive for some assemblance of accuracy.

Olivier was a quality centre, at times better than Jean, but ultimately always lived in the shadow of Jean who was a better 12, probably the best 12 we have had - so hardly an issue for Olivier to live in the shadow of a great player. One certainty is that Olivier was a far better 12 than the likes of Barry, Braam and co who played 12 for the Boks prior to Jean.

Murray was easily our second best 13 when fit. Never did I have him as a Bok, the Bok 13 spot was always Fourie's - so in effect you are just lying here and been exposed once again - you feeling a bit of a twit no doubt?

Murray was certainly a better option than your masters lovechild - useless Adi Jacobs

Fourie as the starter with Murray as back-up was always my call as was Jean and Frans to start at 12 with Olivier as back-up - get it you lying twat?

Murray, Engelbrecht, Taute, Olivier, Sadie.....all the answer according to Dumpy Dave. Centres by the lb.

Mozart

Ten out of ten for your latest remark,  The bigger they are the better - irrespective of whether they are speedy enough or have any skills - that according to Saffex is not required.

Saffex

I ask you again what should happen in terms of your defining of center play - just in simple language - by a center when he  gets the ball - what must he do wtih it as a result of the "tight defence situation" you frequently refer to?   Must he try and get a meter advantage  over the gain line  and crashball?    Must he pass to the next player in the same situation he is?   

If your rinterpretation is indeed correct - is it avisable for the flyhalf to pass balls to the centers at all - should he not rather kick and try and get an advantage that way?

A frank and simple answer would be appreciated.

KKK it beats the hell out of Adi Jacobs - now there is a laugh if ever there was one.

Mike do you have a short span of attention - how much more do you want from me on centre play - fuck me, Moffie was so impressed with it he was stamping and cursing that I had plagiarised the piece.

Wake up Mike

You sure did.....sad thing is, it wasn't even that good.

You talking to yourself KKK?

Well Dumpy Dave that would be distinctly more cerebral than talking to you and your ghost writer.

Saffex

There is nothing wrong with my memory span and what you wrote is the theory applicable to present backline and center play.   What I ask you now is practical implementation on the field of play - is plain and simple and requires a plain and simple answer.   A ball is passed to a center - what must he do with it?   There were some supplementary questions as well.

Fact is if you try and obscure the issue by sidelining it - I will still remain in the fuck-all knowledge category - while you would not look well as a convining rugby expert.  So please go into some detail to explain to this dimwit in substantial details - what options a center on the ground has in dealing with a ball passed to him and answer also the supplementary questions please.

Our last constructive centre partnership was Jacobs and de Villiers in 2008....constructive in the sense they played together. Watch minute 4.00 of this clip.  The mismatches that I mentioned have already been created by phase play. Adi gets the ball and cleverly takes out two players with an outside step and an exquisitely timed pop pass. Jean is right on his shoulder and provides the acceleration and finally gets it to Habana to finish at exactly the right moment. Nothing unusual, just quality execution.....with one small pop pass creating all the space in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwmRfNXqcyY

Of course acceleration and a step also matter.....watch Adi run it in from halfway against Oz at 0.40 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfRJ4ZiPe5E

Mozart

I am totally baffled now.  That match took place less than 5 years ago.   I watched the Habana try and also the subsequent one of the All Blacks.

Did rugby in the past five years change so much that we are now at a stage where Saffex says that kind of play is not possible anymore or is he not correct in his assertions?   I asked him to explain some things to me in simple terms - and if he does I will then be able to make up my mind on what he says centers can do and cannot do.

.     

 That was good play. In minute 3:18. 

Adi Jacobs did have a good season that year. (Was Jean playing at 13, or was it just a positional switch on one play.)

A perfectly executed pass/semi offload in the tackle. He recieves the Ball in traffic, the player outside(jean) him is marked as well. 

He steps to the left, for a half break. A draws Jeans defender slightly inwards to close the space. 

Then Adi passes/(offloads to Jean) with a straight pass allowing Jean to run onto the Ball and take the small gap opened up by Adi pulling the outside defender that was in front of Jean.

Then the rest is just Routine stuff. Jean runs straight, draws the fullback as the last line of defence and passes flat for Habana to run onto in space.

In this situation Habana is allmost certainly going to score.

It is text book stuff on how to cut the line of a "modern day" defence.

Here's another one....at about 3.50 Adi gets a ball from JP I think. He has come around the lineout and penetrated 2 metres before offloading. Adi, as ever, is alert to the space created by that tiny breach. He takes the ball and carves the Poms like Kobe beef.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo1RIkLiLaU

If you watch this tape completely, you will see a much lighter more agile Fransie playing on the wing, also taking a gap. It's hard to even reconcile that player with the massive fellow who played this year.

Small breaches, often acheived against mismatches, open up modern defences. We simply played with very little guile last year. And while Adi was never a world beater, he was damn good in the winter of 2008, principally because he knew how to back up those breaks.

I see Jordaan as that kind of player, alert to opportunities with a sense of timing. Give me that any day over the behemoths.

Mozart

All three clips showed outstanding values insofar as Backline play is concerned - and that brings me to anoter issue as to Saffex's interpretation of backline play - especially since he refused to answer some really plain questions I put to him:-

*   Firstly I do not think back line play changed very much over the past five years - in fact sunsequent law changes all aimed at making rugby more open and attractive/spectator-friendly.

*   I think since 2008 our backline play deterirorated to the level of "dead backline" performances we have now.   This I believe was due to the change in strategy embodied by Morne Steyn and the inability of our centers in partiular to draw in defenders - to pass and off-load efficiently - and the ability to read games properly,

*    Thirdly I think Saffex got weird ideas about what is expected from centers - in the main the players he prefer to play at centers are basically incapable of doing what is really expected from them and to make them look good - he has developed a theory that  centers cannot play attacking rugby anymire.  

What is also weird is that he is against kicking by the half-backs - so the ball is to go to the centers that cannot do anything really affective with it.   Qyeastion is - why is the game not played by 15 similar players - heavy and slow frwards would be coached to defend well and do nothing else when they are assigned to backline duty.

Now for my final summary on Saffex's viewpoints - he said we are all dimwitrs and idiots that knows fuck al of center requirements.   Now let me be clear based on whatever I read abiut his comments and those of others -Insofar as backline play is concerned - my dear friend Saffex -

MY DEAR FRIEND SAFFEX KNOWS LESS THAN FUCK ALL ABOUT CENTER PLAY;

        HE IS IN THAT RESPECT THE TRUE VILLAGE IDIOT

                  HE IS STUPID AND KNOWS SQUAT ABOUT CENTER REQUIREMENTS      .

Sadly, even though I'd like to cut Dumpy Dave some slack, you're right Mike. He has gone from London back to the village and been appointed as the Official Idiot.

Saffex, come on man..Dont make statements. Back them up with facts. Look as Mikes posts, see what he writes and read the evidence he gives or his explanation of the statement he has just made. Thats what seperates a good blogger with a monkey such as you.

How has rugby moved on from the Paulse days may I be so bold as to ask?? You make the statement, now back it up with something more substancial than just "you are a fool to think it has not. How stupid are you!" Give us substance.

Shane Williams is history because he got old you fuck head. I suppose you know a magic potion to prevent ageing just like you have some magic potion that makes rugby of 5 years back different from today.

Players move on, the game is still the same. Petersen is no faster than Paulse. Wendell Sailor or Matt Rogers were no harder to tackle than George North or Manu Tuilagi of today.

Players had just as much skill (infact some players from yester year had more skill ie. Gregan, Larkham and co.

Please enlighten us oh great one. How has rugby moved one? The only thing that changes is a few laws and the players. Had the laws changed in Paulse's era, nothing would have changed differently than how it has today.

You would swear blind 5 years ago rugby was played by hobbits with a ball of cotton wool. Then you might have made the team with your deep chest and broad shoulders you hunk you!!

Your take on a modern day centre reverts back to the days of radio only and is so far off the mark currently that I cant believe you air that shit.

Now take one lesson away from this all please. Dont make silly, outlandish statements then ask us how dumb we are. Back your statements up with some evidence or at least your warped sense of reality and please, make it worth reading. We all becoming dumber for reading your posts!

KKK, what a load of rubbish, next thing you will have us believe Adi Jacobs was a good centre - you are the only stupid clown who believes this.

As for the clips well lets start with the first one, there is no outside step from Adi, he executes a simple pop pass - basics - your take is a complete joke.

We all know Adi could step, just like de Jongh can - these little guys can, its just a pity they get exposed in virtually every other department.

Adi was an insult of a Bok, one of the worst Bok 13's ever - and most supporters will tell you that - FACT

He was not called revolving door for nothing.

And for your information you wil find that all coaches will tell you that the game has moved on from 2008, it moves on every year.

Mickey, I never said creating space was not possible in the modern game, I said it was alot harder to achieve, catch a bloody wake up.

80% of the time, backs will find themselves in traffic, hence the need for physicality. Skill sets the better centres apart - its here that skill enables the better centres to create something with that 20% of ball in space.

Hence the fact that modern day backs need to be big and skilful - look no further than SBW and JP as the models

Mike catch a wake up, I have already listed all the options available to a centre, what more do you want.

Its simple, if he is in traffic as he will find himself 80% of the time, then he needs to strive to achieve an advantage, no matter how small. The slightest advantage could be the difference between him creating forward momentum for a support player or having to go to ground and set up second phase ball. Achieving one of these is a must in traffic.

How does a centre create that advantage in a split second? By being fleet of foot and attacking the outside or inside shoulder of the defender with a mini step or swerve. This serves to check the defenders execution of the tackle, gaining vital seconds and in so doing, hopefully enabling the centre to commit physically and free his arms to offload to support runner who will hopefully take the attack forward.

Its so easy defending against a player who runs straight into you versus a player who offsets that direct route with a bit of creativity. Its all subtle stuff.

This is just the art in traffic, the options in space are limitless, well almost

Oh sure, that's why Jacobs had the best defensive stats for a centre in the 2008 TN. Unlike you man Taute he missed no tackles for tries....in fact he missed one tackle in 3 games against NZ and made 20 of them. That's as good as it gets and against the most dangerous team in the world.

But thanks for the thought.....Turnstile Taute, it's certainly more deserved and alliterates better.

So are you saying that revolving doors Jacobs was not regarded as a liability in defence. We are not talking 3 games here, we are talking in general.

Taute's defence is a strength, we all know that. A miss on Dagg is the reality of rugby at least he was beaten by one of the worlds best and thats the only tackle he missed. He is twice the player useless Adi ever was and time will prove that as it has already

I read the above comments with interest.   When dealing with Habana's try he said :'there is no outside step from Adi, he executes a simple pop pass "   HE MISSED ON SLIGHT ELEMENT - NAMELY THAT THE DEFENDER WHO SHOULD HAVE COVERED MADE ONE STEP TOWARDS JACOBS - LEAVING THE SMALLEST OF GAPS FOR DE VILLIERS.  The key is that one step that places the Defender on the wrong foot and he cannot recover to make a proper tackle.   Clean line break resulted.  

I agree with big and skillful - but the problem is that our big backs badly lack skills.   I have not seen one effective off-load in tackles from Francois Steyn in five tests.   I Have not once seen him drawing in a defender and passing the ball to a player in space or in a better position to atack than he was.   I have not seen one even remote line break attempt by him.   What I saw is him running straight at the opposition defender  and getting tackled the effirt resulting in crashballing - where we did not alwats recover the ball.   I have not once see him running at speed when he has the ball - often enough the highest speed can be described as ambling.   Showing no speed and no skills would not be neutralized by his bulk at all,

Now to Taute - he basically did exactly what Steyn did.    In the famous Wallaby test - he twice had the ball in space - but never even tried anything like drawing defenders twowrds him.- creating space for other players. He passed the ball early to players in a much worse position than he was and in boh cases we lost possession.      Basically in most cases he did exactly what Steyn did and he consequently played no really affective roll in backline play.

The problem is the centers we have had five years ago  were much better players than we have now.   De Villiers really was better than he is at present.   Steyn and Taute failed the basic plays required from skilful players.   Both have bulk and nothing else to offer.   There are two consolations -

*   maybe - just maybe - Spencer can knock some sense into Steyn and get his game improved drastically and make him lose some of the extra lard he carries and make him do more speed training, and

*   Meyer, Coetzee and Taute himself realized that he is not a center at all and they will play him at full back in future.

That brings me back to the Pietersen saga - in the gew games he played for the Sharks - he showed ecatly the same problems that I mentioned about Steyn and the result was ineffetive functioning of the Sharks backline and a corresponding loss in matches early in Super 15 last year.   Saffex obviously fail to recognize the inefficiency - but Plumtree did and he brought in Jordaan at 13 and he whole backline scenario changed for the better.

Saffex problem with Jordaan is - he is too small - so his very evident skill set counts for nothing.   Problem is that Jordaan does make a difference in backline performances and there is virtually no evidence that his defence is deficient because of his size.   In his case his size on attack is in fact an advantage - he is very slippery and hard to tackle and bring down - result is he does off-load balls effectively and has a superb passing game - even in trasffic.   He reads the game ten times better than either Steyn or Taute does - that is why he makes and scores tries.   

Saffex prefer to mention De Jongh as an example of a small player and makes out his failure is due purely to his aize.   That obviously is crap - De Jongh is small - but his main problem is that he lis deficient in the skills component of the game.   To my mind Meyer was foolish to select him - siince over a two year period he showed nothing in Super 15.

Finally - if you want a dead backline - go the Saffex way and select huge anbling speed centers without skills.  Anyone who convinces me that our centers in 2012 displayed the necessary skills must have his eyes tested or hiead read.

Mike I did not read of that but caught the bit on Jordaan. Please dont speak crap about my take on a player. I rate Jordaan highly, the lad has great creative skills and could prove the answer at 13.

My only concern was his physicality at the highest level. He is naturally not a big guy and I admire the fact that he has acknowledged this fact and built himself up to what some sites quote as 94kg. I hope more than anything he does make it and the S15 should provide the answers this year.

Meyer was a complete fool for not including him in the Bok squad last year. Jordaan ahead of de Jongh anyday - no contest

Wrong again Dave....man you are such a blatant liar.......Turnstile Taute missed two tackles in that one match against NZ. Jacobs missed one tackle in three matches against NZ. Spot the difference.

Dave you should adopt sumo wresting. Then you can watch fat men colliding. But I totally reject your view that rugby is now some sumo wresting match in a larger ring.

With all the talk of size, skill so on and so on of rugby players, you could adapt the saying "not size of dog in the fight, but rather size of the fight in the dog" to this thread. Take it as you like.

Nope not lying at all, I only recall the Dagg miss. As for useless Jacobs, he was a serial offender when it came to tackling, hence the fact everyone but your ignorant self thought he was pretty useless. What makes it so much worse is that you rated Adi over Fourie, how fucking stupid is that?

Pity the numbers keep contradictiIng your "given" truths. The centre partnership hasn't worked since 2008. Jean and Fury could never combine.....part of what sunk us in the RWC semi, where Fury didn't back Jeans break and passed behind Habana with the line open.

Mozart

Just some general comments on Jacobs.   I can remember quite well - the early matches on provincial level played by Jacobs - I think he started off with the Valke.   Two things stuck in my mind at the time -

*   He was excellent in scoring and making tries - one of the best attacking players I saw at the time.

*  He ws iffy in defence.

The latter problem was raised at the time by many commentators and was detrimental to his early selection to play on international level.   For him to secure a place on test level he had to improve his defensive skills - and by 2008 he obviously was both a good atacking and defending player.

Problem is his initial negative defehce image remained stuck in the mind of many people - one of which no ddoubt was Saffex - I must admit I also was one of those that found it diffiucult to het over that mindset - even when on test level he was more effective than initially in his defence. 

However, I think that he ended up with good stats as pointed out by you.

Bullshit KKK, Jean and Fourie are by far our best centre combo since readmission. Jacobs was an insult of a centre who should never won a single cap for the Boks - but we had no hoper Jake to thank for that

Mike that's an excellent summary of what happened. He became a very secure open field tackler by 2008. But the huge bias against him started to affect his play in 2009 and he lost confidence. He was at his best in 2008 and formed a very effective partnership with Jean.