Performances of no 12 centers in Super 15

When Francois Steyn returned to the Sharks and ws available for the Springboks I was delighted. In his two games for th Sharks there was something amiss and their backline performances was not that hot. Then came the play-offs in which he could ot play and their backline started functioning admirably again.    In the interim there was the English tests and I had high hopes for our backline with Steyn around. He showed nothing in the tests and I got more and more frustrated as the series proceeded.    He played in two of the tests and in one test his sole contribution was to turn a relieving kick in his own 22  into a grubber kick that puts the Springboks in a virtual disaster situation. After two tests the signs were turning ugly.

Along came the Championship tests and Steyn started off with an average performance in the Cape Town test - but from there went from bad to worse, He became slower and slower off the mark, ambling straight at his opponent making a mini-break by falling forward in the tackle situation. He achieved nothing at all of real value to the team and was what is called in Afrikaans " 'n nul op 'n kontrak" - a zero on a contract. He did defend reasoably well, but his attacking game showed zero.

After he was injured he was replaced by De Villiers that has a much better grsp of what is expected of a 12 than Steyn will ever have. Both are not really top class - but De Villiers definitely rank much higher in the pecking order than Steyn.

That was followed by the warmm-up games and Steyn looked as if he could be successful as a center and I saw some improvement in performances - but those were against much weaker opposition than what he would be up against in the Super 15.

His performances in the Super 15 was a rank disaster if his stats is borne in mind:-

Activity                              Round 2     Round 3     Round 4     Total

Going Forward                          5                3                4                12

Turnovers                                                                     1                 1

Tackles                                     4                5                2                11

Catch (cover defence)                                                  1                 1

Goal kicks missed                                       1                                  1

Penalties given away                1                                                    1

Lost possession                        2                                                    2

That showed that Steyn was by far the worst stats of any 12 in Super 15.   I checked every 12 of the other franchises and found that he was the poorest 12 around. That takes some serious doing since a player like Godwin of the Force is a 20 year old rookie.

As per normal I expect Saffex would say Stats means nothing - you must see games in context, etc. But if a 12 makes no line breaks, less carrying balls forward and less tackles than any other 12 in the competition it says that he cannot match achievements of any other center in the competition and he is really far below standard.  Steyn had one other stat - he made NO line breaks in the three games - all the other 12's made at least 3 or more such breaks and most of the others scored tries as well and/or assisted directly in the scoring of tries.

I was vastly disappointed by what came forth from the study that was made and I am convinced that Steyn is a serious flop at 12.   There can be no other explanation that can be given to Steyn's wickedly poor performances. 

Looking at the above I believe it also confirm that the weakness of the Sharks backline is directly linked to his poor performances.   Time for him to go - maybe to play at full back - but never at center.   I am convinced that an expert like Plumtree would have made by now a similar analysis and that he was not particularly pleased with what he found and that Steyn is indeed on a very short lease.

 I never thought I would say this but I think Steyn is too fat, too slow and lacks any ideas. I was really hoping he was the long term option at 12 for the Boks and would be the guy to help the Sharks go 1 better on last year. Sadly, he has proved the worst 12 in the competition thus far. He lacks anything attacking!!

At the moment, the way he is playing, I would like to see either Butch at 10, Lambie at 12 just until Whitehead is back to see if the backs get going more or maybe Lambie 10, Jordaan 12 and bring JP in at 13, Sithole or Ndungane 14! Steyn is breaking down with the ball far too much and killing our backs. Its so frustrating. Maybe even Bosman at 12! He cant be any worse!

I dont know Mike, I am willing to try anything at this stage but I just cant see Steyn drastically improving. You can not coach pace and he is lacking. What you want is a live wire 12 on attack. Sharks dont play a game that requires a massive 12 like the Stormers and Bulls need to have. We could easily use a Whitehead, Jordaan or Ebersohn. We have big forwards and big outside backs! We have one of the best, if not the best (according to Reunion - kiwi panel) rolling maul in the comp so we grind teams down and earn the right to go wide!

boklogic

I think Steyn really thinks his only asset is his size and he wants to outmuscle his opponents - in which he was never successful.   He has zero ball sense and cannot read games properly - that is why he hogs possession.

Two ignorant twats who are out of touch with reality. Its simple, in week 2, Frans was by far our best 12 - displaying those breaks and offloads. He was selected as the Bok 12 of the week - easy decision.

In week 3, he was selected by 6 writers on Rugby365 as the best 12 in the S15 that week. His performance that week was less impressive than in week 2, but still impressive enough to make the S15 side of the week.

And you two idiots tell us Frans is crap - you both know stuff all about rugby, but hey its not the first time I've told you that and certainly wont be the last.

But keep the crap coming and I'll counter it with informed writers takes on reality

Saffex

You make wild statements - but provide no proof of anything done by Steyn.   What breaks are you talking about?  There was none.  He made no off-loads at all in the match in question and aside from that gave away a penalty as well.

Do you want to tell me that the number 12 who made the least ball carries in the three games in Super 15, made no line breaks at all and made the least number of tackles compared to any other no 12 center in Super 15- is really worth havig as a center.   That really is bullshit.   If a rookie like Godwin did more - what does it show?

Your informed writers are like any of us and more like you than anybody else.   They have their blue-eyed boys and can see nothing wrong with them.   I care nothing  about what writers say and will not use their opinions at all - since I have my own eyes to see what is going on.

After looking at the above figures and taking into account the performance of all other 12's in the competition - I am now absolutly sure that Steyn is on the way out.   Plumtree is no fool - he would not be bluffed at all - he will base his decisions on fact - not some writer's fiction.

You may insult people as much as you like - but your wild statements is meaningless and useless as it is not supported by facts and have no substance - end of story.

clevermike

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 4032 RE: Performances of no 12 centers in Super 15
March 12, 2013, 12:09:38

Saffex

You make wild statements - but provide no proof of anything done by Steyn.   What breaks are you talking about?  There was none.  He made no off-loads at all in the match in question and aside from that gave away a penalty as well.

Four off-loads. www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2013/rugby/match/170164.html

bongani

I accept that ESPN has their own definition of down-loads and that may influence what they regard as downlaods and other data bases don't.   So lets forget about that one and concentrate on other issues that is similar to the stats I quoted.   The amount of tackles made by Steyn was even less than I quoted.  he had no line breaks and no try assists.  

I used the testrugby stats in the cases I quote.  I am prepared to do a similar study on all twelves in Super 15 based on the ESPN system and publish the infor on this site  if you give me the references to the round two three games.   I know how to get the stats on the last game and will do that compariison and publish it.   That will only be fair and reasonable. 

So DomMike, are you saying that Frans did not offload to support players in the Sharks match in week 2?

King of Dunces Saffex

Did you see my message to bongani - stupedo.  The database I used showed no off-loads and I will do one now one based on the ESPN  database on al lno 12  centers and put it on site.  I looked at the other centers in the latest match already and it does not look good for Steyn - but I will be fair and publish the whole lot and then rate the centers in order of effectiveness in games.

Keep your hat on and be ready to discredit all sats as per normal - but nobody (least of all Plumtree) will buy it I am sure.

Mike I dont care about your pathetic stats, just answer the question - did Frans offload in the Sharks first game of the season.

A simple yes or no will do

True Mike. What do the clowns at ESPN know in any case.

Allow me to finalise this matter. Frans has been piss poor and was subbed by Plum due to poor performance. He had better pulls his socks up andput everything into his game. His is going down the drain and must right the ship.

End of story.

Ps - its not that Frans is crap - it's just he is playing crap. I have this feeling he is coasting and he is not playing with passion and desire?

Ou Maaaaaikie, Where do your fantasy rugby get their stats, and where do ESPN get theirs. Want to clear that up for us?

Beenkop the only thing you could finalise is falling asleep in your chair when you go listen to Lennox........man what a waste of time that is going to be. He might as well be giving that talk in Latin, when it comes to you

And over on the other thread ou Maaaikie is busy working through all the ESPN stats and he has forgotten all about whose stats are the closest to the real story and who gets their stats from where? I can picture the steam coming out of his ears.

I agree Steyn has not been on top form and way below the standards for super rugby. I have my serious doubts on writers who said Steyn was on par in rounds 1-3.Even in the warmup matches he was off the pace.I really hope he gets his head right as he really has that extra skill others dont naturally have.Its still early in the season so im hoping he comes right.

Im not sure what is going on in Bongani2's stats but im sure ESPN comentators were watching their Football at the same time.  For another opinion please see  http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match21212.html

Mike Its pointless to even try convince Saffex of the facts, Even if it was shown to him he would be too pig headed to change his opinion. Attacking people because they have a different opinions to yours is just purile. It makes you an asshole and i guess every site has one.

MrPlebs, let me explain something to you. Only a complete and utter idiot would conclude that after Frans's first S15 outing this year that he was below par or however else you would like to describe it. Frans had a great game, making two breaks and offloading to support players in just the fashion we expect from a 12. It was the closest thing to SBW that I have seen. His presence and physicality in attack and defence was great in that game.

He was selected as the best SA 12 that weekend and that was by some distance. In his next match, he was again a physical presence but in my opinion his week 1 appearance was better. However in this week he was selected as the best 12 in the competition by 6 rugby writers.......so in his first two outings you have him down as below par, when myself and a few knowledgeable writers are singing his praises. You either cant see properly or know nothing about rugby.

Now let me explain something to you about stats. Do stats provide context to a particular passage of play?

Say for instance Jean gained 30 metres with ball in hand. Do the stats tell you than in those 30m, he beat 3 players, chipped ahead and gathered the ball and passed to a support player. That would be an impressive 30m. However if Jean was put into space by another player and had 30m to run unopposed, that would hardly constitute an impressive passage of play by Jean, now would it?

The same applies to all stats - tackles missed do not provide context, tackles missed are often the product of miscommunication between players, do stats tell you this?

Stats are a guideline but provide nothing definitive and should NEVER be used to judge the form of a player. The form of a player should be judged by ones own eyes.......good old Mike is too stupid to realise that. I get the impression you are just as stupid - but hey you have time to learn and mend your ways orange peeler

Cumulative stats iron out all the individual elements. One game may not be an accurate reflection....but averages after say 5 games are pretty good. All of last year Fransie gained no metres.....this year he as gained no metres. I wonder if he has run more than 10 metres once in 10 or so games, apart from when he collected the Bargie charge down.

The facts are simple.....this guy isn't beating tackles or seeing space.

It's not going to change.

There are very few metres to be gained by a 12 in a tight game. Frans has presence and is able to breach the advantage line and offload in contact.......he is the only 12 that has displayed this ability and its the only way forward for a modern test 12.

Serfontein is the only other 12 that has displayed this skill, but the Bulls are reluctant to expose him at this stage which is short sighted.

Stats provide no measure of a players form and the intricacies of what is taking place on the field of play. Frans was our best Test centre last year and has been by far our best S15 12 thus far.

de Allende and Olivier made some ground on Frans in round 4, but rounds 2 and 3 belong to Frans by some distance

Firstly, let me start by saying a big fuck u to fat Dave. Dont call us twats because we disagree with your bullshit you piece of shit!

Secondly, I have always been pro Steyn. I still am pro Steyn but until he gets his ass into gear and starts performing, I am watching my beloved Sharks attack go down the shitter. No player is bigger than the team just because of his name and at the moment, thats what I feel Steyn is. He has not lived up to expectations and also is not playing half as well as some "smaller" name players.

I dont give a fuck about Dave's "I dont care about stats until it suits me" fat prick attitude, we can all see Frans Steyn has not been the same player he was when he left SA vs since his return. He lost his speed, lost his shape and lost his flair. He is well below par and not even top 6 best 12's in the comp this year and thats a man who is supposed to be the best! I dont care about some guys write up on him. I have my own eyes and can see this for myself. I am a huge Sharks supporter and in my 3 years in NZL, I have not missed one Sharks game live. That means during super rugby season I am awake at 4am every Sunday morning so I reckon I know a whole lot more about the Sharks than you do Dave.

Why do you have to start your posts off by insulting us because your views differ. A gentlemen, as MOZ did, started his post off to you as, "I disagree Dave!" He did not call you an ignorant twat. For a man of your age you are truelly fucked in the head and you need a smack. Just wish you had the balls to say these things to guys faces you little garden gnome!

Boklogic only a complete and utter idiot would doubt my knowledge of Rugby I have played the game at the highest level and coach some of the best new talent in England. Frans Steyn is the top 12 and Hougaard is the top 9 in South Africa FACT. Stats are a guideline but provide nothing definitive, and should NEVER be used to judge the form of a player. I am the defintive guide on this site and beyond to player performance and anyone who disagrees is just an idiot. Can you understand?

 Dave, I dont doubt you know the game of rugby. Yes, you have different opinions to others but whose to say you right and they "twats" because their views are different.

One thing you will never see from me is stats. I dont know how many times Steyn has offloaded in the tackle and I dont care. All I can see is the man is failing at 12. He is breaking down, nullifying Jordaan who was exceptional last year and he is not making a positive impact. He did not make a positive impact for the Boks last year either! Stats mean very little to me when I watch the game with my own eyes. We have failed to score a try in 2 games now and lets face it Dave, the Kings were there for the taking. That should have been a bonus point game for the Sharks. We were camped on their line on more than 6 occasions and failed to make 3 more metres for the try and we got over the tryline 3 times. We should have got a minimum of 4 or 5 tries against the Kings. We made defending easy as Steyn is so predictable.

He can not be blamed for the no tries but he is playing a major role in it! I just dont know what is going on with him these past 2 years. He has all the attributes to make an amazing 12 or are we hanging on to a thread and false beliefs of what he really is? Is Frans Steyn a hasbeen at the ripe old age of 25 or 26 (whatever he is?) Are his best days behind him??

I judge only by form, never by stats but you are kidding yourself if you believe Frans Steyn is "in form!" He has not been for years now. He is becoming a liability in both the Sharks and Boks backline. My face used to light up when I saw his name in my teams (Boks and Sharks) team sheet, these days I am nervous!

Saffex, what level did you actually play at because you say "the highest level" but to me, that indicates International rugby. 

ps. some of the best coaches never played the game and you dont have to be a rugby player to know the game. Some guys never played but can tell you anything you want to know about the game through passionately supporting!

Saffex

What do you mean by presence?   Making TWO tackles in the Kings game means presence.   Does presence mean that the only time the Sharks backline has somme spark is when he is not involved?   What is neant by off-loads in his case?  Going to ground in a tackle situation and the balls comes back through a maul recovery?  I have seen virtually no SBW like off-loads from him but for once  whilst  he was on the field of play on Saturday - the rest he crashballed and the balls came back because of mauls recovery.  Still don't know what is meant by ESPN when they say he off-loads balls.  None of the other sites call any off-loads in his case - so that still remains a serious mystery to me - since I really do not see any on his part when watching games..  .  

I have seen nothing as bad as his performance this year in Super 15.   His PRESENCE brought nothing to the Springbok team last year and it brought nothing to the Sharks this year.   His opponents have the easiest time in the world - since they know how slow he is and how predictable he has become.   He ambles upp - gets tackleed goes to ground - that is the routine.    That cause the balls to come to a dead stop. 

I have watched the Kings game again and now found out what the ESPN sites meant by off-loads.  The regard the following sequence as off-loads.   Steyn is tackled and goes to ground and the next  Sharks player manage to pick up the ball - which he place back after the crashball.   No other site regards that as off-loads - it really is bullshit and somebody should point it out to ESPN.   Why is at bullshit?   Because the game comes to a dead stop for a moment too long and it kills the subsequent movement.   Off-loads mean the passing of balls in tackle situations before going to ground - or even passing whilst you are on the ground already immediately befre a ruck is formed  - not going to ground and expect from another player to pick up the ball and getting the game moving again.    I remain convinced that ESPN is wrong in the relevant regard and since all other sites differ on that score and does not regard it as off-loads  - the ESPN stats in that regard means zero in off-load terms. 

Once again. Where does ESPN's stats come from, and where does "the other sites'  " stats come from, and which are these "other sites". I am not trying to run down the sites that you are using, Mike. I would like to have a look at those sites and the stats myself.

Gosh, TwatLogic is sounding even angrier than usual. Has anyone been punched yet?

Dutch courage?

 Like I said ESPN's stats are irrelevant and probably put together by idiots. Stats are a guideline but provide nothing definitive, and should NEVER be used to judge the form of a player.

Rooinek, is Saffex a personal hero of yours? He incorporates the word "twat" into everything now you gota start with that? Would you be is Personal Dick Sucker at the firm on the outskirts old chump?

Rooinek, how do you keep coming back to a site where everyone thinks you are...wait..knows you are a poes? Have you no shame.

Bongani, still waiting something rugby from you..

See Rooinek, im 26 years old. I am not sure how old you are but im guessing around the age of Saffex. Very childish. I come here to talk to others about rugby issues and lighthearted fun. Now guys like you and Saffex come here to stir and insult. I will tell you why you do that. Its because you sad "little" men with no lives, and you are safe behind your keyboards. Your types are all over the net. Step out from behind your keyboard, walk onto the streets and call each and every man that you see that disagrees with you on something and ignorant twat or something along those lines. Report back with a photo at the end of the day and we will see the damage.

In life, we have talkers (You and Saffex and how good he was at rugby, how big his house is and so on) and then we have doer's...I am yet to say something I couldn't prove or wouldn't do. Come on guys, stop talking, start doing.

Bongani, I am not interested in posts from someone who has to hide behind a new name. You are the most cowardly of them all. You probably made a fool of yourself under your original name and now you want a new lease on life. You fooling no one so I am hardly worried what a "mole" has to say. You boys cant run away from what you are. You will still always be those meek little guys behind your message board talking of your "glory" days!

So, TwatLogic, you come here for lighthearted fun?

Pffffffffffffffhahahahahahahahahahaha!

Man, that is hilarious!  I'd hate to see you when you're not being lighthearted! You're probably the least lighthearted person I've ever seen on a message board.

TwatLogic, if you're really 26 then let me be the first to tell you that you act about half your age. I mean really, this business of threatening to punch everyone is the kind of thing I'd expect from a pre-pubescent zit-popping little tween who's still checking every day to see if he's got his first ball hair!

"Lighthearted fun"! LMAO!

So SB RooiAAS thinks you act half your age......who cares......if you double your age, you will get RooiAAS' age. And he still acts like he's in Primary School. "pwned"

Rooipuss aka Saffex mini me, you have no clue do you?

Who have I ever threatened to punch except give Dave a smack if he spoke to me the way he does over the net in person? Would you not smack a guy who was that arrogant and that offensive to you in person. No wait, you wouldn't because it scares the shit out of you and you are a lot safer behind the keys of a message board. All you are is a mouth piece. I have summed you up. Some people do, some people talk. We know which one you are.

You will walk a million miles before you find a man willing to get spoken to how Saffex does to his face and not drop the little prick! You are the only man that would take it because you are no man at all. You need to grow up and I stand by my word. If Dave ever wants to holiday in NZL, he is more than welcome to get in touch and deliver some of the abuse he does over here to my face and we can see how that goes for him! No threat. Thats a promise. I am not saying I am Mike Tyson or I never lose a fight (as Saffex says..ha ha) but we will sure find out if he has the balls. 

Light heartened rugby banter is what I am all about. I have no problems with any other posters but you and Dave. The two most childish ballie's I have ever come into contact with but I suppose its easy to be a big mouth over the net. You seem to have years of experience at that.

Its never light hearted with you and Saffex. Mind you, you never offer anything rugby, you seem to just be here to personally search for Saffex's first ball hair as you ellude to above. You are employed as his PDS right? No other reason why you get so upset when Saffex's posts get torn to shreds as they always do. Too easy. How can you respond in light hearted intent when a post starts out with ignorant twat and so on? Use your head prick! 

 I seem to have found my long lost twin Fattex!!

Rooi, did you ever catch the bit about Boglog being a people person - he is in recruitment after failing to make the grade in psychology!!!!

Saffex, I said im a peoples person, i never said anything about being an "introverted old man who never grew up" person.

You are a self proclaimed god of rugby who never loses a scrap..Really you are an overweight, short, dumpy man who is 10 foot tall behind the keyboard. Look at the way you and Rooinek have to "gang up" on people like kids in a play ground. Ha ha, middle aged to older men acting like kids..Sad really.

So now its insult a guy for all you are worth and when he responds in kind he is not a peoples person and is not lighthearted etc. Bwahahhahahahahahaha

As I said under another thread could you both up your game from complete twats to twats.  

Boklogic rule number one - NEVER take these two complete twats seriously. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Ou snapster does some charity type coaching of lost boys - the only scope he had to coach. In his eyes they autoamticlly become the cream of Englands youth. Hahahaahahahaha. However its so funny when the servile gimp rooitwit acts as his echo.

Anyhow I enjoy the comedy boklogic and if you can see it in the right way you will have many a laugh.

Boglog, your physicality scares me

Dave,even if you meant that and weren't just being a big mouth behind the keys of a message board again my physicality should scare you. Hell, with your vital stats, the physicality of a 15 year old girl should scare you.

Yeah, Beeno, I hear you. Dave coaches some awesome talent. He tells us to remember their names then goes on to ask us whether a conversion kicked over the poles by an opposing player is counted. Ha ha sounds like he is coaching a circus out there.

Hate to say that though as Saff did play at a "superior" level to all of us. Pity he is not out spending all the dosh he made off the game but instead making a fool of himself on this site!

@Mike,

It seems as though Bongani has decided to let go of the ESPN matter, even though he has left a few hints as to the origin of the ESPN stats. Mike, on the other hand is still not prepared to disclose “all the other sites” that he keeps on mentioning. So, I have decided to clear this up.

I have always liked to gather statistical data on the different players, teams, etc and I have done many searches on the internet for reliable data. Now, let me say right from the start that I am not going to put my house on the fact that ESPN, or any other source for that matter, is always 100% correct with all their data. In addition I will disclose what I know about the ESPN stats and why I know it. The other remark that I would like to make is that Moz was indeed correct when he tried to point out that it is not that easy to assess different players purely on one dimension of their stats or gameplay.

As far as my knowledge about the “ESPN stats” go. It is in fact not “ESPN stats”. The business of sports analysis goes way beyond a few journo's or people sitting around a table and making notes during a game. The reason why I know it is that we have always had these types of discussions on the Supersport board as well and I started looking for a source to get some data. There was one site which was since taken over by another company, and they used to have excellent comprehensive data, but the new owners stopped it. I then came across another site by a company called Opta Sports and I discovered that they have the most detailed stats that I have ever seen. They had spreadsheets that could be downloaded and you could download the actual games as well. They covered rugby from all over the world but for some reason I could only access the CC and SuperRugby stats. Then during 2011, IIRC, that was blocked like the stats for the Top14, Premiership, etc. Being in the UK myself, I gave them a call to ask why I could not access their dat anymore, and they explained to me that it was a mistake on their side that left the CC and Super Rugby stat “open” to the public. I will come back to ESPN in a while.

There is also another company, called Verusco, that does the same as Opta, but on a much smaller scale, because they only do rugby stats, and if I am not mistaken they only do SH rugby. They are based in NZ. I suspect that the Aus and NZ papers as well as the sites who run these fantasy games, etc, make use of a NZ company.

When I got in touch with Opta, I was told that I had to buy their sports analysis package to have access to the reports, and that it is mostly sports institutions and big media organisations who buy it at £12,000 per annum (at that stage). There are many clips on their You Tube channel on how they go about to gather the data, and the data that we see on the ESPN website is only a minor little part of the detailed match report. I still have spreadsheets that I downloaded where one can see how detailed the reports are. On the ESPN site, for instance, they give the number of kicks that a player has made. I you saw the full report, it is actually broken down in detail, i.e. from where the kick was taken, was it a defensive kick from his 22, where did it land, was it out in full, was it gathered and played back by the opposition, how much territory was gained or lost, etc etc etc. Every aspect of the game is reported on in the same detail.

Where does ESPN come into the picture? They are but one of many clients of Opta, who are the biggest company of its kind. You can find their website here http://www.optasports.com/. A few of the sports clubs who use their programs are: Arsenal FC, Bayern Munich, Canterbury Crusaders, Blues, All Blacks, Italy Rugby, Connacht Rugby, French Rugby Union, etc etc etc. Media houses that use their data are ESPNScrum, ESPNCricinfo, BBC Sports, Fox Sports, Sky Sports, Eurosport, Spiegel TV, etc. Betting houses like, Betfair, Ladbrokes, Skybet, William Hill, etc. You can see all of that here http://www.optasports.com/en/who-we-work-with.aspx. To give you and idea of the extent of the rugby data that they collect, you can have a look on this page: http://en.rugby.optasportsdata.com/.

This is one of the You Tube clips giving some back ground. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R04HAbG6_0, and this one is about the rugby program http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVmqCoF5qeU

So Mike, are you going to tell us about all te other sites?

Boglog are you saying that professional rugby players never have the ball come off the side of their boot, or pass the ball to no-one (Jean), or collide with one another going for a high ball, or drop a ball when going for a try, or have a ball hit them on the head when competing for a high ball, or drop a basic high ball (Joe), or run into their own players when on attack - all stupid moments.

So here I have a club U16 side playing, my son takes the conversion, it lands short, an opposition forward stupidly tries to fly hack it before it hits the ground and it comes off the side of his boot and goes over the poles - this shows a lack of skills does it, you stupid dunce?

I tell you what it was, it was a bloody fluke and a great rugby moment, we pissed ourselves laughing - it was a once in a lifetime moment on a rugby field, never to be repeated. It had stuff all to do with skill, level of play or anything like it - it was just a mad moment.

As for my boys, there are 3 lads who could go on to play for England - they are currently with the England U16 squad. One is 6'8 and 111kg