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FORUM / RUGBY /  Pichot's bold plan to stop the talent drain; NZ Herald

Pichot's bold plan to stop the talent drain; NZ Herald

Started by Just_win11 REPLIES485 VIEWS· 11 Dec 2016, 16:32
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Dec 2016, 16:32
#1
11 Dec 2016, 16:32#1

A subject once dismissed by rugby bosses as a non-issue is now a priority focus and we could even see a new set of international eligibility regulations as soon as May.

In time-honoured fashion, World Rugby has set up a research committee to canvass opinion on whether Regulation 8 needs to change.

The major questions are whether the three-year residency rule should be extended, possibly to five years, whether players should be allowed to represent more than one nation in their career and whether players should no longer qualify for the birth nation of a grandparent.

These questions are being asked because former Pumas halfback Augustin Pichot took over the role as World Rugby deputy chairman in June and picked eligibility as his cause celebre.

Of all the areas of the game that need attention, it was the increasing number of players coming into the test arena via the three-year residency rule that Pichot felt was the most urgent to address.

A few old hands from the established nations looked at him sideways, rather hoping he'd take the hint not to poke about in an area they didn't really want put under scrutiny.

The three-year residency route is one of those regulations everyone can see isn't quite right but few countries want changed because they exploit it.

It is working well for the likes of Ireland, Scotland, England and France, and the moralistic arguments about it damaging the credibility of test rugby and putting Pacific Island athletes in danger of being lured into bad situations at a young age can be ignored on the grounds that most countries rather like having access to exotic, foreign players.

Ireland can't see much wrong with the status quo when it has brought them Jared Payne and CJ Stander and, in time, Bundee Aki. They have arrived in Ireland via the highly contentious "project player" route where the national union identifies foreign players who could in time solve a positional drama. These players are then enticed by financial packages put together by club and country and have the carrot of a potential test jersey thrown in.

Scotland are also fans of the current set-up, having brought over Josh Strauss and WP Nel from South Africa as project players.

England, too, are now loaded with residency players and curiously had two Fijians in their team when they played Fiji in November, while the French are picking residency players in ever greater numbers. They had two Fijian wings in action against the All Blacks and a Kiwi prop.

Opinion is divided on the credibility of this migration of talent. The countries that use the rule to their advantage see no issue.

It is a professional sport and player movement is significant. If individuals end up playing club rugby in France or England, settle there, bring up their families there, why can't they change allegiance after three years?

There's no drama, everyone move on please. But Pichot sees it differently - and a growing number of fans are siding with him.

In Pichot's mind, residency players may be within the laws of the game, but not the spirit. During the Six Nations, there were times when it felt like the 90 best players from the Celtic, French and English leagues had been randomly assigned to each international side.

There were Kiwis, South Africans, Fijians, Samoans and Australians splattered across each team. That same feeling existed last month when up to a third of some northern hemisphere starting teams were drawn from players qualified through the residency rule.

There's no doubt the influx of foreign players has strengthened northern national teams, but it has also chipped away at the integrity of test rugby.

Take the example of Nel and Strauss. They were picked in Scotland's World Cup squad even though they weren't going to be eligible until after the tournament started.

Nel then had to endure one of the more awkward press conferences in the tournament when a French journalist asked him, as a Scotsman, what he thought about the ban on bagpipes in stadiums.

The French questioner wanted to know about the cultural importance of the pipes to the Scottish players ... and it brought one of the more memorable silences.

Last year, former Blues and Hurricanes wing David Smith was invited into the French Six Nations squad as injury cover. He had served his three years but the French hadn't realised he had also played sevens for New Zealand and his eligibility had been captured.

And of course there is the perennial oddness of hearing during match commentary how a Fijian has just scored for England, or a New Zealander for Ireland.

Pichot has had enough and in May he wants change.

However strong the case may be to amend the existing regulations, it's unlikely to happen. There are too many disparate and competing views, and change can only come about if 75 per cent of World Rugby's voting council is in favour.

New Zealand, for instance, are thought to be in favour of increasing the residency requirement to five years and allowing players to switch allegiance once in their career - but only from tier one to tier two.

Argentina are thought to hold rigid, narrow views about eligibility - scrap the residency law entirely. South Africa are thought to be in favour of lowering the bar to parental birthplace - that is, no longer allowing players to represent the country of a grandparent's birth. The South Africans want to find ways to reduce their player drain.

And most of the Six Nations are happy as is - they are the main beneficiaries of the current set-up, as they have the most powerful clubs.

What England also knows is that their new deal of paying close to $50,000 as a test-match fee is an incredible recruitment tool.

Fijian-born Nathan Hughes made his England debut against Fiji this November and it gave him a clear appreciation of the choice he had made. Had he been playing for the country of his birth, he would have been paid $800.

If he manages a few more tests, he can radically improve the lives of many in his village. But when was test rugby ever about the money?


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Dec 2016, 16:44
#2
11 Dec 2016, 16:44#2
 Money is a big motivator for players and teams. The "free market" argument seems reasonable but can destroy national sides, just look at SA. I think Pichot will have a hard time changing the rules but maybe a four year residency rule would pass. 
In the US they have NFL teams for cities and the players on these teams are rarely from the city they play for. No one seems to care but for our national sides to be made up of players that don't identify with the country they play for is a different story.
From an NZ perspective I think we should fight hard to keep the national side made up of national players concept. Losing some players to the NH is fine but that's about as far as it should go. The SH teams are going to have to manage the business side of things so that they can pay decent wages to players and even if they can't compete with NH salaries they are going to have to be close enough or else it will be the South African path for us as well.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
11 Dec 2016, 18:28
#3
11 Dec 2016, 18:28#3
 Classical from excellent men: destruction is fine to monetize when that is the destruction of others. When destruction comes knocking at their door, as of a sudden, they cry injustice etc

As a reminder, since when test rugby is about money? Since professionalism was pushed  over amateurism.
Who pushed for professionalism? The nations in SH (AUS, NZ, SA) The NH tried to oppose professionalism. They failed.

Now who is whining about consequences of professionalism? Nations in the SH.

When did they started to whine? When it's threatened to damage their rugby.
Did they lift a finger when professionalism damaged the rugbys in the Islands? No.
Did they call for an inclusion of island franchises in the Super Rugby thing? No.

And now, something must be done so that a guy who would do $50 000 is limited to $800. Who is that guy? An islander.

This has nothing to do with anything free market.
It has with responsibility.

SH nations pushed for professionalism. They saw nothing wrong in it when it damaged islander rugbys and now want islanders to be stuck in their conditions.

No legitimate ground to complain.
Professionalism is here, SH pushed for it. They have to cope with the consequences.
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
12 Dec 2016, 01:05
#4
12 Dec 2016, 01:05#4
Traditionalist who is your dealer? Could I have his number?
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
12 Dec 2016, 04:12
#5
12 Dec 2016, 04:12#5
 The NH were all for the pro era so long as it benefitted them first .A 5 year wait and an option to play tier 2 from tier 1 sounds good to me ,it will have very little effect on the ABs but will stop this NH nonsense where up to a 3rd of some teams are made up of newly minted 'citizens' from the SH .
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
12 Dec 2016, 14:41
#6
12 Dec 2016, 14:41#6
The opposite is showing up: the SH was for the pro era as long as it benefitted them first.

The SH is the one whining about the consequences of professionalism as NH is faring more and more.

In the NH, the practice of rugby was deeply rooted in amateur practice. Fans did not want a professionalisation of the sport as they thought professionalism would ruin the values they associated with rugby.
That feeling is wide spread among 50, 60 year old fans, whereever it be, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France or England.

Nevertheless, the pro era was triggered as the SH pushed for it and the SH is the one screaming right now.

Professionalism is about channelling resources toward the sector and in this regard, the NH is doing better and better.
TV fees in England and France are increasing, sponsorship deals are increasing, the english clubs are going to go deeper into debt.
The pool of talent is channelled toward the NH etc

The guy in the article did not even give away that the current model is set to work in favour of the SH.

In the NH, professionalism is getting stronger and stronger, and the heart and lungs of it are the clubs,not the international teams.

As professionalism gets more and more ground, the international teams appear more and more as a hindrance, a burden weighting on the shoulders of professional clubs that would fare even more without the international teams.

That way, clubs demand compensation from the international squads when players are loaned from clubs and when players are injured.

Only the english federation command over means to try to tip the balance toward the international squads.

The article does not admit that professionalism in the NH means clubs, clubs that could do without the international squad.
Actually, for clubs, the weaker the international squads, the better as it would allow to get rid of them.

When NH international squads are allowed to complete their squad with foreign talent,  it works against clubs and in favour of the SH.

Rugbys in the NH could withdraw their international squads, it wont affect negatively pro rugby.

On the opposite, if they withdraw their international squads, this could mean the termination of rugbys in the south, especially NZ rugby as it is funded by the ABs first.

In the NH, the weaker the international squad, the stronger the club, the easier it will be to diminish the resources channelled to the international squads in favour of the clubs.
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
12 Dec 2016, 17:31
#7
12 Dec 2016, 17:31#7
 Richer nations should not be allowed to rob the investment and products of poorer countries without putting investment back into development. However, more investment will not solve it as the next generation look towards role models and it doesn't paint a great picture when you see your countries best players play for another nation, knowing that your feature lies abroad. 
Australia and New Zealand have been massive culprits of taking in foreign players. Half of the Australian team is made up of south sea islanders. 
I would go as far as to say players need to become citizens of their new adopted country in order to qualify. In the UK it takes five years and a lot of hoops to jump through. 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
12 Dec 2016, 17:54
#8
12 Dec 2016, 17:54#8
I think the U.K. & other nations have an excelerated process whereby it takes 3 years before you can play for a national side. I like the idea of a national transfer fee. This would help pay for the investment a country has put into a player. Before you get all excited about "foreign players" playing for the ABs most are born in NZ or developed in NZ.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
12 Dec 2016, 21:09
#9
12 Dec 2016, 21:09#9
 @kingcorn,

"Australia and New Zealand have been massive culprits of taking in foreign players."

This is simply false,... completely false
there are very few foreign players who have played or are playing for Aus or NZ,... there are many players with PI heritage but they are usually born in Aus or NZ (or emigrated in their childhood as Kaino who leave American Samoa where rugby doesn't even exist at the age of 4 with his parents),... they are as aussie or NZder as any other and they have the same rights which include representing their country,... 
Both Australia and NZ have a huge population emigrated from the PI (NZ itself is considered a PI),... they emigrated for other reasons very different from rugby (mainly economics) and they are now living and raising their children there,... that's a social reality in both countries

-------------------------------------

about this issue,... it's not possible to exceed the national legislations,... I mean, in the UE countries (I think it's in all of them but I'm not sure) you can apply for the citizenship once you've been there for 4 years,... World Rugby can not approve a legislation exceeding this time,... it would be useless,... if any player who have got the citizenship for having been living in the country for 4 years is impeded of playing for the national team, he goes to the nearest Court and he automatically will be allow to play,... no matter the WR legislation,... the national legislation always will be over that of WR and once he has the citizenship he has all the rights, exactly as any other citizen

I would put the hardest legislation possible,... 4 years residency and no calification through grandparents,... but I don't think this would supose any considerable change,... there's very little that can be done to stop this flow
the countries named in the article Scotland, Ireland, England and France are already abusing this possibility and there are more players than those in the article:

-Scotland: appart from Nel and Strauss,... Sean Maitland, Huw Jones, Tim Visser
-Ireland: Jared Payne and CJ Stander and, in time, Bundee Aki,... but also van der Flier, Mike Ross very recently, Joey Carbery (though he4 went from NZ to Irealnd at 11), Gibson-Park could be another in the near future,...

and England and France are doing what ever is in their hand (no matter the consequences) to lure PI youngs


WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Dec 2016, 00:41
#10
13 Dec 2016, 00:41#10
 Bundee Aki ,a name as Irish as Guinness and leprachauns [ if you think Stander and Payne are Irish you probably believe in fairies like said leprachauns!]BP bro you are of course correct in that very few ABs were not born in in grew up in NZ and learned their rugby there ,how strange to see England with 2 Fijian wingers playing Fiji !
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
13 Dec 2016, 14:18
#11
13 Dec 2016, 14:18#11
 Last line up for NZ:

1-Joe Moody, 2-Dane Coles, 3-Owen Franks, 4-Brodie Retallick, 5-Samuel Whitelock, 6-Jerome Kaino;7-Matt Todd, 8-Kieran Read (capt);9-TJ Perenara, 10-Beauden Barrett, 11-Julian Savea, 12-Ryan Crotty, 13-Anton Lienert-Brown;14-Waisake Naholo 15-Israel Dagg

Crushed with names ringing like the location.

At this pace, indeed, people are no longer be able to tell a NZ side from an England side if England keeps including Islanders.

Similar could be said for SA.

Yet as often with excellent men, they are forgetful of what they are.

That is why they forced that PC ness thing: to avoid being reminded of that.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
13 Dec 2016, 14:20
#12
13 Dec 2016, 14:20#12
 Actually, the business relative to foreign (foreign as defined by rugby) players is done through the BBs, how players are given selections to block them from playing elsewhere.
— END OF THREAD —

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