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FORUM / RUGBY /  Players challenging for a Bok place

Players challenging for a Bok place

Started by Mozart25 REPLIES513 VIEWS· 16 Mar 2014, 18:13
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2014, 18:13
#1
16 Mar 2014, 18:13#1
At this stage if we take our YE team as the base case, I see very few new challengers. None in the outside backs. None in the front row. So far I would say the following new options are worth thinking about:


Fransie and Boshoff at 10
Reinach at 9
Matfield at 5
Schalk and Coetzee at 6

The rest of the new challengers have failed to convince.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Mar 2014, 18:39
#2
16 Mar 2014, 18:39#2
Mozart: F. De klerk (9)? Certainly not for a Bok place as your title asks for but he is one to develop & keep an eye IMO. 
He has been playing really well for a young man with so little experience at the s15 level. Do you agree?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Mar 2014, 19:13
#3
16 Mar 2014, 19:13#3
 Mozart
Who do you think you are bluffing?
Anyone saying Steyn is challenging for a Springbok place at 10 must really be a nutcase.   Steyn is not challenging for any position in the Springbok team - he is getting worse in every game he played in in Super 15.
It is not only me who say that - the following is an extract from comments on Steyn on the Sharksworld site:-
 "Against the Lions Frans was at 10 with 10 minutes notice. This time around he had a brand new centre partner. There was bound to be an issue or two.

Yes he was poor on attack yesterday. Very poor in fact. But class is permanent – he will come right."

ONE CAN ONLY HOPE HE WILL COME RIGHT - BUT THERE IS NO REAL SIGN OF THAT - AND EXCUSES CANNOT TAKE AWAY POOR BALL HANDLING. 

The second question is - what is expected from a flyhalf?   Is kicking at goal all that is expected from a flyhalf?   If that be the case every fllyhalf yesterday was accurate in their goal kicking  - as accurate as Steyn was last week.   

So lets forget the goal kicking and look at the rest of the requirements.   Steyn's passing game at flyhalf was poor and passes ranged from misdirected/inaccurate to wild.  He never brought anything to the game in ball handling  - matter of fact he spilled two balls.  He is becoming notorious for the fact that he gives away penalties to the opposition - last week it was 1, this week it was 2.

Thus far in Super 15 there was no indication that Steyn could read the game and act accordingly - an essential for any flyhalf.

White is not going to give Steyn another go at 10 and neither will Meyer.   So you are barking u the wrong tree in any event.

One thing that is really in question.   Last year Steyn started off well in the first Super 15 game and then went on the skids.   After a disaster against the Brumbies, Plumtree could not take it any longer and put Steyn on the bench.   The same thing happened this year.   A good start against the Bulls and getting progressively worse. Yesterday really was the pits - so bad that everybody - but the most prejudiced saw through it.

There is no doubt that White sees clearly enough what really is going on and there can be no doubt that he can differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable performances.   The million dollar question is not whether White will take action if the resent trend of very poor performances by Steyn continues - but when such action will be taken?    Unlikely to happen while the Sharks keep winning and while Jordaan is unavailable - but even that is questionable.


Boshoff last year in CC showed that he can perform very well and that continued this year.  He brings more to the game than goal kicking and could indeed be a candidate.

Matfield showed zilch outside line out ball takes - and there are serious signs that he weakens the Bulls scrumming.  So to say he is challenging for any position is really not on.

Burger is doing very well, but is probably challenging for the number 7 position to replace the quasi-lock masquerading as a loosie - we need a loosie at 7 who can perform all functions as a loosie - not one like we have at present.     

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2014, 19:28
#4
16 Mar 2014, 19:28#4
JW Faf has been the SA scrummie of the first 5 weeks. He is almost a throw back to the old running scrum halves like Joost and even Dawie de Villiers and Vos. I'm sure you guys had equivalent players in the NZ. The reason I don't mention him, even though I enjoy watching him is simply the physicality of the modern game. He is a strong bugger and fearless, but that close to the huge men I'm not sure he will survive. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
16 Mar 2014, 19:59
#5
16 Mar 2014, 19:59#5
 Mike don't get caught up with Mozart's rugby opinion, he's a lost individual that barely watches any rugby.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
16 Mar 2014, 20:00
#6
16 Mar 2014, 20:00#6
Moz; he is taller but lighter than Aron Smith according to the stats (so on that basis he should beef-up a bit. But when I see him in a game he looks pretty stocky to me.
Anyway, as I said he is not Bok material now but could be in the future.  Aron Smith (All Blacks) (highlanders site)HEIGHT1.71mWEIGHT83kg
F. De Klerk (Lions) (Lions site)

Height

1.87m

Weight

80kg

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 Mar 2014, 20:01
#7
16 Mar 2014, 20:01#7
@mozter,

"Faf has been the SA scrummie of the first 5 weeks. He is almost a throw back to the old running scrum halves like Joost and even Dawie de Villiers and Vos. I'm sure you guys had equivalent players in the NZ. The reason I don't mention him, even though I enjoy watching him is simply the physicality of the modern game. He is a strong bugger and fearless, but that close to the huge men I'm not sure he will survive."

faf de klerk - 5ft 7.5in, 80kgs
cobius reinach - 5ft 9in, 83 kgs

one and a half inches and 3kgs cant be enough for u to say thats the difference between surviving against the big men now then can it???

and then dosent that mean that hougaard at 5ft 10 and 93kgs is better equipped to handle those same big guy pressures???

i still see hougaard as one of the many parts which makes the key the Boks need to break the cycle of boring rugby, but he also needs to do his part and pull finger and improve his form which while not as kak as many have made it out to be, is still far from what he would call acceptable given the bar level he set.

despite fafs and reinachs solid form, hougaard and van zyl for my Bok halves.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2014, 20:47
#8
16 Mar 2014, 20:47#8
Hougaard won't add anything to the attacking cause at scrum half. He is so tied up in process....one, two, three now kick....that he sees no gaps, no mismatches. He is locked in a titanic struggle to make decisions. He is the opposite of Willie who sees 10 different ways he can crack the defence.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2014, 20:51
#9
16 Mar 2014, 20:51#9
"Mike don't get caught up"... Haha..the poor old fool is obsessed. I can't make a posting without a laughable response from the old coot. As for you Cheezer, still a Goosen groupie. Shame it must have hurt to see Barrett, NZs third flyhalf make him look like an rank amateur. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Mar 2014, 22:31
#10
16 Mar 2014, 22:31#10
 Mozart
I will respond to foolish comments - especially when it is clear you have no idea about what you are taking about.   And Barrett making a fool of Goosen - was nowhere in sight during the game.  Who was the last flyhalf Barrett made a fool of?  I remember now - it was a certain Morne Steyn at Ellis Park. 
    


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2014, 23:06
#11
16 Mar 2014, 23:06#11
Oh he didn't catch Goosen on the return leading to the first Chiefs try....speaking about fools, I'd say he just made a fool of you as well. But we all know you have been a fool for a long time.

Now you know I want no more interaction with you Mike....you are just too much of a liar. It's nauseating to see you crawl back for your daily punishment  Whats  with you, are you an attention freak or more likely  a masochist?  Shove off moron , I have no interest in your laughable views.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Mar 2014, 03:00
#12
17 Mar 2014, 03:00#12
Mozart
What did I lie about - nothing near to your level of deception and inventive rubbish you come up with on this board.   When a person differ from you and point out where you are talking crap - then some reason should be found to discredit that person.
When some dubious statement is made by you and in isolation the matter seems harmless you do not like it when what you are leading up to is exposed in advance.  
The  sudden campaign about having Steyn at 10 is typical.   He kicked well at goal, but his all round performance at 10 was poor - so you did not accept the latter as being the case and when it was pointed out by me - you went on the "liar" campaign to avoid dealing with the issue raised.   
Recently when the overall stats on the performances of Steyn and De Allende was raised - you tried to side track the issue by a dubious claim about the fact that De Allende  made a major part of his meters gained in the one game he played on the wing.   Fine thus far - but the solution was easy - take pf the meters gained on the wing from the total meters gained - and take off the meters gained by Steyn in the one game he played at flyhalf and you have the meters gained by both when playing at center.   However, by doing that you still end up with De Allende gaining more than double the meters gained by Steyn in the same number of matches while both were playing in the same position.  Even more devious was the claim that they were playing against different teams - but at least one game played by each was against the same team and in those games the same opponents were facing them.   So there were ample issues to compare - but you attack me by saying you do not need to teach me the basics of statistical evaluation instead of dealing with the issue on an honest and straightforward basis with all the information readily available.
It is much easier to become personal and attack a member than to deal with a member punching holes in your dubious statements on issues.  Fine do not communicate with me - but be assured the holes in your dubious statements will still be exposed by me - so ignoring my comments will just amount to admission that you were wrong in the first instance in any event. 
          
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Mar 2014, 07:36
#13
17 Mar 2014, 07:36#13
 Could you two lighten up a bit? Thanks
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Mar 2014, 10:59
#14
17 Mar 2014, 10:59#14

What exactly has Matfield done to merit selection??????

 

 

Schalk is a 7 not a 6 and Frans will challenge for 12 not 10

 

 

 

Others to impress are de Allende, Lood, Faf de Klerk and Jacques du Plessis.

 

 

Hougaard is returning to form as well

 

 

 

 

 

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
17 Mar 2014, 11:25
#15
17 Mar 2014, 11:25#15
"Moz; he is taller but lighter than Aron Smith according to the stats (so on that basis he should beef-up a bit. But when I see him in a game he looks pretty stocky to me."

Does anyone understand human anatomy or the nature of strength training? Mass has very little to do with strength or robustness. Robustness stems from a strong frame, strength from capacity to exert maximum tension. Strength = tension, not mass. Say it again with me, mass = mass; strength = tension. Adding 3kg will do very little to solve a physicality problem. If you want are training to add muscle mass, i.e., hypertrophy training, you are not training for strength. But put up against strong and heavy meromorphic individuals? That can spell disaster for the one trying to bigger than he really is. Comparing weight is meaningless, utterly meaningless. When all is said and done Mozart is more or less right. He isn't look for numbers, but visible signs of physical potential. One is pure folly - as we see endlessly with Michael, the other is intelligent and logical.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Mar 2014, 11:56
#16
17 Mar 2014, 11:56#16
 Dim Sun
I never quibble about size of players and the fact whether they really are performing well.    I also do not deal with weight etc= that is you and Mozart - with Saffex being part of the same school.
What is important in my book - more than size is rugby intelligence, ability to read games and take instinctive decisions.   Players with size like Francois Steyn, Morne Steyn and Willem Alberts has the physical attributes - but near to zero rugby intelligence and instinct.  They are the robots of the game and ultimately the opposition used that against us.
There is nothing wrong with De Klerk - he is an intelligent player who through clever play and dedication punch way above his size.   
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
17 Mar 2014, 12:24
#17
17 Mar 2014, 12:24#17
 "that is you and Mozart - with Saffex being part of the same school."

Another lie! Time and again I have argued about strength output and robustness. I have talked real biology, not ignorantly used numbers or outright lies.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Mar 2014, 13:11
#18
17 Mar 2014, 13:11#18
Sun Tzu
I have NEVER discussed physical issues as a norm for performance - I stated repeatedly that class players are those with ball sense and stated in the past that if class players have better physique - they would be my top choice.  If ball sense are missing - then the physical players go into group 3 of my selection criteria - who should in any event never be in the running for selection.
Your constant preference for two of the dimmest players around - namely Alberts and Francois Steyn - led to my above comments.     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Mar 2014, 14:31
#19
17 Mar 2014, 14:31#19

Once again it's a question of looking at what happens on the field, not simply projecting ex ante bias. Take Matfield. Before he played and during his first outings I saw nothing to change my view that his return was a mistake. But then, after only a few outings, he started and dominated two phases of play.....the lineouts and the kickoffs. he was also very good at linking, with his superb hands.

 

Here are his numbers from the Blues game....he made 4 offloads, never turned the ball over once, made all his 7 tackles and took 1 opposition lineout.  He also showed touches that were bordering on ru gby genius. Taking the kickoff and offloading while still in the air and one pass round the legs while being tackled.

 

That was without doubt the best lock performance we have seen from a SA player this year. If one can set aside the preconceived notions.

 

LMatfield0/000/9/6100040 7/07/100/0
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Mar 2014, 14:43
#20
17 Mar 2014, 14:43#20

Sorry Moz, but that is complete rubbish......all the locks are taking their line-outs and kick offs, look no further than the number of kick off takes taken by Franco v/d Merwe for the Lions this weekend.

 

 

The merits of a lock do not end at line-out or kick off takes...........Matfield adds nothing in general play.......the has been physically exposed at times......the game has moved on

 

 

 

Our young locks, PSDT and Lood have been far, far better........Lood this weekend had another great game  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Mar 2014, 14:59
#21
17 Mar 2014, 14:59#21
PDST has been pretty invisible. Lood has had some decent runs, but coughed up the ball a lot....5 times in 5 games. His lineout counts have also been low, against the Rebels he actually won no lineout ball. I see nothing  special so far.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Mar 2014, 15:08
#22
17 Mar 2014, 15:08#22

Take it you missed his game on the weekend then??

 

 

Funny that your hero Jake says PSDT is one of the best players in the world right now........pretty impressive for an invisible player

 

 

Moz your problem is that you make so much out of nothing - ie Matfield has been a passenger to date.......and the best you can do is tell us how great he has been in the line-outs when in fact he has already lost one of his own.

 

 

And while you make so much out of nothing in Matfield, you seem to take great joy in dishing out nonsense about our youngsters - its a good thing Jake does not see PSDT as you do.....he just sees him like the rest of us do

 

 

Why on earth you think Bok rugby will benefit with a bunch of old farts on board is beyond me.....just look how poor Steenkamp, Bakkies and Fourie were on the EOYT

 

 

The only old guys who add value currently are Habana, Jean, Jannie and Schalk......the rest are liabilities, with far, far better youngsters to choose from  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Mar 2014, 15:20
#23
17 Mar 2014, 15:20#23
Er Dave....Steph didn't play this weekend.  And 7/1 means you won an opposition ball, not that you lost one of yours. Just keeping it real.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Mar 2014, 15:23
#24
17 Mar 2014, 15:23#24
 The Mpzart psychology at work here -
*  the sole function of flyhalfs is to kick at goal;*  The sole function of locks is to catch kick-in balls and to jump in line outs; and *  The sole function of loosies is to carry a few balls in traffic and make a few tackles. 
Matfield calls the line-outs - the opposition locks are mediocre - so he takes his line outs - nothinbg special about that one.  In the meantime it is a fact that his support in the scrums have resulted in weakening of the scrums of the Bulls.  How do we know?  In the games before he came on the Bulls scrum was stronger - when he came on the scrums of the Bulls went backwards.  That happened when Matfield was on the bench - sop he is weakening the scrumming of the Bulls.  So Matfield made 7 tackles in the game indicated - what is so wonderful about that?   De Jager made 17 tackles in the game this Saturday.       
"That was without doubt the best lock performance we have seen from a SA player this year. If one can set aside the preconceived notions."  Easy to make a statement without regard to facts - same as the praise song Mozart wrote after the Scotland test about Bakkies = when he in fact had a poor game.   In this case an average performance is lifted to "the best lock performance this year". 
Just for the record here is Franco van der Merwe's stats against the same team:-
 F van der Merwe0/000/5/98000013/14/100/0   Franco had a very much on par performance and so was the one of Bakkies. 
And for the record the stats for De Jager as well:-
 de Jager0/000/4/416030117/12/100/0
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
17 Mar 2014, 16:38
#25
17 Mar 2014, 16:38#25
 When all is said and done, PSDT has not had a big impact. That is not to say they won't feel the loss, but he is a little overrated for now. Give him some time and I think his potential may be realized.
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
17 Mar 2014, 18:52
#26
17 Mar 2014, 18:52#26
 Yep I agree Victor Matfield must go the next world cup with the Springbok team.
As the coach of the forwards.
— END OF THREAD —

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