FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  Positional Health - SA Team

Positional Health - SA Team

Started by clevermike23 REPLIES773 VIEWS· 25 Jun 2018, 14:10
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 14:10
#1
25 Jun 2018, 14:10#1

 We all know that Keo is a fool living in a bubble - but Houwing can be accuse of the same as well,   However, his following article in News24 needs further discussion:-


Rassie Erasmus is likely to be leaning more toward satisfaction, in broadest terms, than despondency over where his rebuilding Springboks stand following completion of the home England series.

Albeit still with certain gremlins, the Boks completed the primary objective of beating Eddie Jones’s charges (2-1) and did enough to suggest they should keep getting better, and more street-smart, in the lead-up to RWC 2019.

Bolstered by some likely, key returnees from injury, the head coach will seek continued, steady improvement as the next objectives - the Rugby Championship and a European end-of-year-tour - loom.

Here is my appraisal of their current health, by positional department …

Back three

The Springboks are unrecognisable - in all the right ways - in this area from so much of the Allister Coetzee tenure.

It was the prior coach’s Achilles heel, but with better identification of personnel, Erasmus is already beginning to allay fears here.

Willie le Roux looked fresh, resurgent and dangerous at fullback in the first two Tests, while the baptisms of exciting young wings Aphiwe Dyantyi and S’bu Nkosi as offensive forces proved largely promising indeed.

A lingering concern, of course, will be the way the Boks were twice in a row stung in wide channels early on (both Jo’burg and Bloemfontein) by high-tempo England attacks, suggesting lots of work lies ahead over defensive adhesiveness and alignment.

But shall we put that down to pure naivety?

Slippery, versatile Warrick Gelant also hovers pleasingly; he looked competent in wet conditions when it came to his “basics” at the back.

Hopefully we haven’t heard the last from canny footballer Ruan Combrinck at Test level, Curwin Bosch is too talented to be wholly overlooked, while Makazole Mapimpi is another outright “flier” bubbling under.

Verdict: Much improved situation, though inexperience a lingering worry.


Comment  -   Houwing missed the ship totally in respect of Gelant - he saw the high catches taken - but not the constant flops that followed.   Gelant is by some distance not a top full back at all -  too slow to be one.


Centres

Depth is gradually building, I guess.

Although he provokes mixed feelings, the very seasoned Frans Steyn may yet have to be lured back into the Bok fold (assuming he is up for it?) at some point as he could take charge of the No 12 berth, serving as that useful “extra flyhalf”, especially on damp days.

Both Damian de Allende and Andre Esterhuizen (at least in the June opener against Wales) had their moments at inside centre, whilst the outside berth is a close duel between Jesse Kriel and Lukhanyo Am.

Euro-based, 35-cap Jan Serfontein is another who could sneak back into the mix later in the year, perhaps offering possibilities for both slots.

Verdict: Both berths still a little fluid, no absolute “must pick”.

Comment - Anybody starting off with Fat Fransie as a center option knows nothing about rugby and does not even understand how seriously defective he is.   Starting off with him make the rest of his center comments seriously questionable.

Flyhalves/scrumhalves

Handre Pollard has almost indisputably cemented himself in as the premier pivot, at least for the next few major assignments. (But remember that he also offers Dan Carter-like options as an inside centre.)

The back-up to him stays a quandary, as fairly similar-styled Robert du Preez had a mini-nightmare on brief debut off the bench in Washington DC, and Elton Jantjies floundered in the Newlands mud.

Erasmus is making positive noises anew about Stormers wunderkind Damian Willemse, and his undoubted X-factor could make a huge difference if he is blooded successfully at the highest level soon.

Scrumhalf? Well, Faf de Klerk largely shone for his tenacity and sprightliness against the English -- even if his game management remains a work in progress -- and deserves the main jersey for the time being. He must try to stave off penalties more consciously, though.

But resources beneath him remain shrouded in uncertainty: whippet Embrose Papier sports only nine minutes of activity across two Test matches, and Ivan van Zyl is still seriously callow at this level too.

Verdict: No 10 stocks slightly better than No 9.

Comments -  Both Van Zyl and Papier needs further exposure before further comments can be made. 

Loose forwards

The massive plus in the series, of course, was veteran Duane Vermeulen confirming what an asset he will remain for the World Cup … one of few true “aura” factors in the Bok ranks at this stage.

He will play fitfully over the next few months, but that should at least allow for cerebral Warren Whiteley – albeit so different a player in style and build – to pick up his Test career again after a lengthy layoff.

Pieter-Steph du Toit has been pleasing as a blindside flanker, though he continues to offer big second-row credentials as well. Jean-Luc du Preez? Jury still out.

Siya Kolisi was inspiring as Bok skipper from the open-side berth, and robust in general exchanges … though question marks remain about whether he really fits the bill in “fetching” terms. Still, he needs some feet-up time!

Once fit again, former Lions tearaway Jaco Kriel could challenge for a roaming flanker’s role.

Verdict: Solid pool, but first choices not completely cast in stone.

Comments - this is the type of general comments that resulted in poor loosie combinations in the past.   This is the main deficiency in the team and the issue of breakdown ball protection and recovery needs to be the core of further selections.  None of the players other than Vermeulen - who has a dubious future at best - can do anything about it and there is no question as to Kolisi - he failed the test 100%.    

Locks

The consistency of Franco Mostert and heartening strides of lanky newcomer RG Snyman meant the Boks didn’t suffer in this area despite the absences of proven figures Eben Etzebeth and Lood de Jager.

Once the latter two are back in the frame – and with Du Toit, as mentioned, always interested in the locking berth, too – South Africa should have an embarrassment of riches heading into next year.

The good thing about someone like 2.06m Snyman is his adaptability between four and five: for example, he could easily partner Etzebeth by assuming the latter responsibility.

Marvin Orie is another combative soul not that far off readiness for major Tests.

Verdict: Vast array of talent, especially once some seniors fit again.

Comments -   Anybody mentioning Ori and not Schickerling - a vastly better lock - needs to have his head read. 

Front row

Between Tendai Mtawarira and Steven Kitshoff, the Boks can sleep blissfully, knowing that the loosehead role is wonderfully covered for the period up to and into the Japan-hosted World Cup.

Hooker is also increasingly marked by clarity: I’d say a pecking order of strongman Malcolm Marx (now back in action) and tigerish Bongi Mbonambi as his immediate, extremely capable back-up is the way ahead for some time.

And yes, I still like the Schalk Brits possibilities as a vastly experienced third option, despite the challenges of his unusually advanced age.

There are decent tightheads around, but with some currently sporting certain reservations: young Wilco Louw should (no, hopefully will) return fired-up soon after being overplayed in early season, Frans Malherbe remains ring-rusty after his neck woes, and Thomas du Toit still needs plenty more time on his “wrong” side of the scrum to become a formidable international element.

We shouldn’t forget that another “converted” prop, Coenie Oosthuizen, may be challenging anew by nearer the end of this year, but there could also still be a No 3 gap, considering the fluid look, for Saracens’ Vincent Koch - a formidable force on his good days.

Verdict: Loosehead and hooker pretty settled, No 3 not yet nailed.

Comment - and this idiot Houwing thinks that Brits will be of any use - where did this fool get that idea from?   The man needs a shrink almost as badly as Mozart does.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 14:27
#2
25 Jun 2018, 14:27#2
Wot no Liggies.....yet another fool misses the deep well stream of wisdom available on this very Board....nay, from the very initiator of this string. No discussion on ...er....positional health can be complete, without examining the copious credentials of Liggies Labooschagne! After all the man knows loosie play. Before the series started Marshall Nay spotted Vermeulen as a washed up malingerer in the French league......a sure fire flop. Inconveniently, I'm sure it was just bad luck, Vermeulen became our player of the series.....LMAOFY!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 14:46
#3
25 Jun 2018, 14:46#3

This from a genius who thought that Alberts was a loosie - question remains was he a slow prop or a lock who could not jump in line-outs?  A loosie he definitely never was.

Now lets get back to the real issue - namely breakdown ball protection and recovery - which you regard is not necessary on the part of loosies,  Alberts did not understand what it meant and was totally useless in that regard,   Louw was too slow to get to breakdown points and failed in that respect as well.  Vermeulen was slow as well - but he was usable in that respect if the breakdowns occurred  near enough to where he was.   The issue was under Meyer the main bad failure odf the Springboks in tests.  What is your solution - or do you still thank it is unimportant and not an issue at all as you stated previously?          

As yo performance Same can be said about Fat Fransie - whose erstwhile coach spoke the truth - he is no center at all.  

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Jun 2018, 15:04
#4
25 Jun 2018, 15:04#4

Houwing really is clueless. To think that there are many who go along with his nonsense.

He's just another puppet promoting the mediocre.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 15:22
#5
25 Jun 2018, 15:22#5
Tokkie it's not clever......it may be in your ANC circles, but not here. I said 'centre is our main concern'.....you translated that into 'or do you still think it's unimportant and not an issue at all' referring to loosie play. See that is sneaky and dishonest.....just because I think our centre problem is our biggest concern doesn't mean I don't think we have issues on the wing, at tighthead and at loosie. If you want to be treated like an adult, act like one.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 16:22
#6
25 Jun 2018, 16:22#6

Mozart

The main deficiency in the Springbok team has always been the loosies since at least 2012.   Anyone not understanding and realizing that must be really blind.   We never had a functioning loosie combination.  What we had was a slow paced threesome with no real contribution - other than Vermeulen who at least was a hard worker.   The other two was useless as they did as little as possible during games,

That means regularly being beaten by pacier players - never getting to breakdown point and aside from that Alberts was too clumsy to try and make turnovers - even if the ball carrier fell at his feet.  

We had problems at outside center for years.   Meyer used 11 different players in that position in thee years and all nine were failures.   The same can be said of the Coetzee combinations as well.   De Villiers was in decline - good still in 2013 and nowhere to be seen in most matches in 2014 and 2015.   

However, since Meyer was clueless about backline play - what happened could have been expected iro the centers.    He was supposed to now about forward play - but what happened there was not to be expected as well.   The impact of the center issue wass less than the disaster with the loosies were.   Remember the Japan test disaster.   Schalk - a player with sero credentials in ball protection and recovery was turned into the first receiver and stand-in flyhalf and the centers had only one real roll - to defend.   

The center problem is no worse than it was under Meyer  - in many ways it had improved this year.   The only problem is the centers are known targets of your pet hate campaign - so you lose all perspective as to that issue and do not make any objective assessments of the players involved. 

Fact is the result of the Meyer loosie stupidity is still with us - we have no real loosies to protect and recover breakdown balls and the only one who did that - but rarely so - have been Vermeulen.   The slow pace loosies caused mayhem and ball protection became a nightmare leading to many possession losses and penalties.   Typical was on Saturday - when there was 9 such possession losses and 5 penalties stemming from it.      

But that was not the only problem with the loosies under Meyer and Coetzee.    In virtually all games all the loosies combined managed 12 to 14 tackles per game.   Alberts was MOM in one test where he made  a high of 8 tackles - missing only 4.   Normally the only loosie not playing a low working rate game was Vermeulen - the other two did virtually near to nothing when it came to defense.    And their ball carries were equally far and few between -  meters gained with ball carries were minimal and really ineffective.    So what really happened was a disaster under Meyer and Coetzee did zero to fill the void.

Hopefully Erasmus would do better than the two duds he succeeded.   Let me put it bluntly - Erasmus better clear up that loosie mess soon.  
By the way - Vermeulen ruled himself out of the RC and there is an indication that he may not play in the EOYT.   There is after that only three tests left before the WC.   Erasmus is not a fool like Meyer was - he would not select players based  on minimal test appearances in the 18 months before the test,     Some of Meyer's picks had zero or near to zero games in the 15 months before the WC,   
CC is of the opinion that after two games in which Vermeulen did well - he had no oomph left in him on Saturday and he was basically not seen doing much.   Ver meulen  when given the MOM after the second test  said he was hurting all over and it seems we should have taken more note of that.    He became a very low rate loosie in the third test and ruled himself out of the RC this year.   Is he really match-fit  enough to play three Saturdays in a row?       


BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
25 Jun 2018, 17:13
#7
25 Jun 2018, 17:13#7

And all this time by the sheer volume of drivel posts I thought the the main problem was Matfield the two Steyns and Meyer!!


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Jun 2018, 17:27
#8
25 Jun 2018, 17:27#8

Meyer stupid...Alberts clumsy...Meyer a fool...Schalk zero credentials...useless...mayhem...nightmare...Meyer clueless...

In virtually all games all the loosies combined managed 12 to 14 tackles per game.

2012 vs Ireland - loosies make 41 tackles

2012 vs Scotland - loosies make 29 tackles

2012 vs England - loosies make 34 tackles

2013 vs Samoa - loosies make 32 tackles

2013 vs Argentina - loosies make 17 tackles (and Argentina only had 35% possession)

2013 vs Argentina - loosies make 29 tackles

2013 vs Australia - loosies make 35 tackles

2013 vs NZ - loosies make 20 tackles

So it carries on....21, 20, 53, 32, 29, 21...

I'm struggling to find ANY game between 2012 and 2016 in which the loosies made less than 17 tackles, yet Ou Maaik claims that in virtually all games they managed only 12 - 14 tackles.

Mike, you have zero respect for the game or the players. If you did, you wouldn't tell blatant lies like this just to support your own claims.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2018, 17:52
#9
25 Jun 2018, 17:52#9

Pakie

I wrote from memory and did not check the stats - should have.  However, the number of tackles is really misleading and the fact is that I refer in the main to Alberts together with Morne who in 2013 destroyed the Springboks chances of beating the AB's n Johannesburg.by missed tackles and other idiocy.  

Why don't you check  Alberts stats only.   Anyway Coetzee was a decent loosie at the time - Spies and Alberts were hopeless as a combination.  And the useless got worse with time.   I am not maligning anyone - but refer to the useless Alberts who have never heard about ball protection and recovery and never ever recovered such a ball,    I also pointed out that other than Vermeulen  at times and Coetzee - the rest was never at breakdown points timeously to do anything.   

Fact is the loosies we had was totally pace-deficient and in the main could not handle anything further than ten meters away from mauls, scrums, etc.   They just were absent from breakdowns and the result was the same a s on Saturday - strings of ball losses and penalties.


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Jun 2018, 17:56
#10
25 Jun 2018, 17:56#10

Alberts was MOM in one test where he made  a high of 8 tackles - missing only 4.

8 was not his high. I also find figures 11, 16, 12, 10 . And I'm only glancing through quickly.

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Jun 2018, 17:58
#11
25 Jun 2018, 17:58#11

Ireland 2012, just a mistype. Already corrected.

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Jun 2018, 18:05
#12
25 Jun 2018, 18:05#12

I did not bother to even check the rest of your drivel  

Of course not. The facts don't matter to you. And you also know that if you check my "drivel", you will find that once again you have been exposed as a filthy little liar who will make up anything to discredit players you don't like.

Instead of your usual bluster in calling anyone who exposes you a liar, here's my simple challenge to you: prove that this statement of yours is correct:

In virtually all games all the loosies combined managed 12 to 14 tackles per game.

Make a list of the combined tackle counts of the loosies in all tests between 2012 and 2016 and post them here. You've got nothing better to do. If you find a combined tackle count of less than 14 in just 10% of those games ("virtually all" should probably constitute at least about 90%, but I'll cut you some slack cause you're old), you win.

Otherwise, apologize to the players involved for deliberately lying to discredit their performances.

Just 10% of the games, less than 14 tackles. Off you go.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2018, 18:07
#13
25 Jun 2018, 18:07#13
Er but they did play Ireland in 2012, just as Pakie says. Best you don't look at the actual stats you disgusting old liar. But here's another example......the stats from the WC semi against NZ: F LouwFL ....... 0 13 1 0. S BurgerFL ..... 1 13 1 0. D VermeulenN8 .... 0 7 1 0. So the slandered group makes 33 tackles at more than a 90% success ratio. Stop lying on this Board, you bring down the whole level of debate.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Jun 2018, 18:22
#14
25 Jun 2018, 18:22#14

However, the number of tackles is really misleading

Oh? Now they're misleading?

Funny, a few minutes ago they were good enough as a means to discredit the players.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
26 Jun 2018, 08:52
#15
26 Jun 2018, 08:52#15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi-5Y8YNlfQ


Watch this video. Pause it at exactly 0.00 seconds. Mike, if you watch this video, please make sure you are seated and have taken your heart medication, because that freeze frame is bound to cause you to spiral into a fit of rage. 

XA
XaviPro1,924 posts
26 Jun 2018, 09:21
#16
26 Jun 2018, 09:21#16

Bwahahahahahaha. Terrific trio!!!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jun 2018, 09:32
#17
26 Jun 2018, 09:32#17

Do lets see what Albert's stats  really look like:

Total tests caps    =   45 tests      -    Tries 7

Super Rugby        =   100 games -    Tries 12

Stade Francais      =   16 games   -     Tries 2

Not really a try-scoring spree I would call the above,   Alberts scored 5 of the Super Rugby tries in or before 2012.

The above confirms what I said he was useless in attacking play after 2012 and fact is he became too slow to be a loosie.     


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jun 2018, 09:37
#18
26 Jun 2018, 09:37#18

Mozart

Look at the Super Rugby stats as well - the fact is that Pakie tr ied to slant the things totally - first by using the wrong years and then by picking mostly NH tests - where at the time the game was still slow-moving.   The man failed badly in SH tests particularly and so did he in Super Rugby games.

Fact is his figures were on par or even below those of locks and even props in those games.    

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Jun 2018, 09:54
#19
26 Jun 2018, 09:54#19

Pakie is a farce on site - heis firte ffort was to make up his own stats in 2014 in an Australia game where he alleged De Allende made 12tackles and missed 8.   He submitted his "findings" in detail and when pointed out that the ESPN stats indicated that De Allende made 15 tackles in that game - he suddenly changed the numbers to 14 made and 7 missed - which also was a lie.

He then started postingpics from games - always to prove that he is right and I specifically is wrong.   He made sure he posted the pics in angles where the ral position of players are distorted and one cannot really say what happened in those cases.   For instance a recent case where De Allende was tackled on the 5 meter line  clearly - he said De Allende was 7 meters from the sideline and there were two players outside of him.   That was a lie as well.    According to him it was a two on 1 situation and the dolt Mozart described it as a try scoring opportunity.   The chances for that to happen was near to zero - so what can be made up from that stupidity?

Mozart can up with versions about players he dislikes and Pakie will try through slanted pictures to try and prove he was correct.   That was always used as a measure to present a false inpact.    

Nobody can trust Mozart as to whatever he writes bout matches and he would always try through bluster to protect his favourites and never stop criticizing his pet hates.  So if one of his favourites buggers up - easy to lay sole blame on one of his pet hates.   It happens repeatedly and he went so far as to say that a try-saving tackle was a poor tackle just based on his normal lies.

Two disgusting members on site who try and convince members through deception that they are correct and everyone else is wrong.   

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
26 Jun 2018, 10:31
#20
26 Jun 2018, 10:31#20
Mike, who are you trying to convince here? On that missed tackle of De Allende, this whole forum agreed that it was 7 meters out. You were the one who tried to manipulate the evidence to prove that contact was made at 5 meters. NOBODY AGREED WITH YOU!!! Not one person. Now you state your fictitious 5 meter "finding" as fact. Fact enough to discredit Moz!!! 
I have no loyalties to anyone on this site, and I have had plenty of run-ins with Moz over the years, but you had everything about that tackle wrong. Don't make Moz out to be some deceitful lair when in this specific case involving De Allende, which you have inexplicably cited above as evidence of your good discretion, when you are clearly the one who is being deceitful and lying. Don't believe me? Have a poll of members on the site, and see how many agree with your summation of that tackle.  
As for Pakie, he submits photo evidence of what he says, I am not sure what else he can possibly do that is more convincing....except maybe using your convoluted heavily biased opinion based on...your convoluted heavily biased opinion and not much else. 
Mike, in all honesty, Moz does have his biases, but they pale in comparison to yours and especially the ridiculous and laughable lengths you'll go to to defend them.  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jun 2018, 10:42
#21
26 Jun 2018, 10:42#21

These people who are always launching the one personal attack on ou Tokkie after the other are really farking disgusting. Oh wait...........

"Pakie is a farce on site......."

Now this can become really interesting. you would probably have had a point had it not been for your won farcical BS over the years. Stuff like when you saw a picture of Morne Steyn and then drew up a moerse fantasy of how he was on the verge of being flogged off to a football club. 

Or the time when you saw that Bakkies did not finish a game and then declared that he was taking off for being crap and replaced by another player. Unfortunately for you, you had to be corrected when it emerged that he was injured and that he could not have been replaced by the player you mentioned. That was simply because the player who you alleged that he was replaced with was actually his lock partner who started the game with him. Remember that saga, or should I post a link to the thread. I'll also post the link of the Morne one for you as well but I'm sure that you would find it too sickening for your taste.

"He made sure he posted the pics in angles where the ral position of players are distorted and one cannot really say what happened in those cases."

You mean like those where he debunked your distances to the try line the other day? The ones where almost everybody on the particular thread agreed that you were way off with your distances?

"Nobody can trust Mozart as to whatever he writes bout matches"

And one can trust whatever you post? Particularly in view of the above? You are the last one who can throw stones, mate. There are many similar threads and posts that can be quoted. 

"Two disgusting members on site who try and convince members through deception that they are correct and everyone else is wrong.   "

What was it that you said about personal attacks again?






CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
26 Jun 2018, 11:22
#22
26 Jun 2018, 11:22#22

Well ... clearly looking at the facts, won't sway him. Mike doesn't like the facts. It gets in the way of all his conjured bullshit. He did the same thing with the useless De Allende missing a tackle on Brown from 7m out.

If you simply deny the truth and soldier on with your own fabrications all will be well. Didn't you know that?

He believes his own lies ... and can't understand why the rest of us don't. He actually expects the rest of us to go along with his fabrications. 

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaaa!!
How deluded is this man?

Thanks BlueBok. That was excellent footage of Alberts. He was an incredible rugby player. One of my favourites. Wish we had him now.


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
26 Jun 2018, 12:35
#23
26 Jun 2018, 12:35#23
always to prove that he is right and I specifically is wrong
Not to prove that I am right, but to indicate what actually happened in the interest of preserving the integrity of the game and of our discussions here. As I said before, anyone can draw their own conclusions and have an opinion, that's fine even if we completely disagree with one another. We can differ, for example, on to what extent De Allende's little kick was to blame for the England try (opinion), but we cannot claim he was tackled on the 5m line (he wasn't, verifiable fact), or that he did not have two players outside him (he did, verifiable fact). Once we start skewing verifiable data points, we're not analyzing anymore, we're engaging in make belief.

You are always on the receiving end simply because I don't need to fact check anyone else - most other posters here are honest observers who stick to what actually happened, while you insist on producing your cloudcuckooland versions. Clean up your act and accurately report on what happened and I won't need to point out all your errors for you. It's that simple.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Jun 2018, 16:20
#24
26 Jun 2018, 16:20#24
'Whatever happens, I'll leave it all to chance. Another heartache, another failed romance. On and on, does anybody know what we are living for? I guess I'm learning (I'm learning learning learning). I must be warmer now. I'll soon be turning (turning turning turning). Round the corner now' .....
— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news